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Hello,

I play Chaos Marines (Word Bearers, so undivided with daemons ok) and I'm at a loss at how to deal with DE. I am running into:

-Efficient, mobile, and spammable anti-armour in the form of dark lances and blasters on/in open-topped vehicles

-Accurate+high volume of fire anti infantry that will ignore high toughness; rules out spawn and giant spawn as my usual distractions, also discourages me from taking any greater daemons/children of the warp

-Cannot be pinned down in combat because everything flies, negating the charging Rhino into tanks/shooting units trick most of the time; again extremely mobile, which means my assault units can't be expected to follow up charge even if they survive the shooting unless they kill the vehicle in question in one turn.

-dirt-cheap T5 Jetbikes that can charge into fire support units on turn 1; though this can be prevented with better bubble wrapping, I'm having trouble thinking of an efficient unit to do this with (I do own pink horrors and the Changeling, perhaps that will work, but pinks are also quite expensive so I'm not sure)

-Venoms are deceptively tough, between 5++ saves, -1 to my shooting, and T6/6wounds. I'm not sure on the optimal tools to take them down.

In terms of options, I can play/proxy pretty much anything in the chaos marines armoury including some smaller FW items (dreads, daemon engines, and rapiers), but don't want to go into cult troops unless I really have to. Any tips and tricks? Thanks

Yup, sounds about right. There's a reason BA/loyalists have resorted to spamming stormravens. Of course, I refuse to do this, so I'm a victim right along with the CSM. I think the codices will deliver some relief, though, by recosting some units.

Against Venoms or Raiders Maybe spam Heldrakes? At least you get D6 auto hits so goes around the -1 to hit. And S6 multi damage is not bad.

Just want to pop in real quick and say you need to check again about the dirt cheapness of those jetbikes. If theyre cheap in any way they arent DE.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Against Venoms or Raiders Maybe spam Heldrakes? At least you get D6 auto hits so goes around the -1 to hit. And S6 multi damage is not bad.

I've thought about that as well, but the problem is that Heldrakes are much more expensive than a single venom or raider, and even if it manages to wreck the vehicle in a single turn (which isn't anywhere near a guarantee) the squad inside just piles out and I haven't reduced their anti-armour firepower at all, and the heldrake gets turned to slag on their turn. And now I've just lost almost 200 pts to kill a 100 pt vehicle, if I even managed to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheSnowmanInHell wrote:
Just want to pop in real quick and say you need to check again about the dirt cheapness of those jetbikes. If theyre cheap in any way they arent DE.

Duly noted. I think my buddy said they're about 70pts for a 3 man unit with a blaster? Lot better than I can do with chaos bikes haha

 -Steppenwolf- wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheSnowmanInHell wrote:
Just want to pop in real quick and say you need to check again about the dirt cheapness of those jetbikes. If theyre cheap in any way they arent DE.

Duly noted. I think my buddy said they're about 70pts for a 3 man unit with a blaster? Lot better than I can do with chaos bikes haha

Unless there's been some FAQ that's amended this, the Reaver Jetbikes are 30 points a pop - not dirt cheap at all. That makes a squad of 3 with a blaster/heat lance 105/115 points. Considering cluster caltrops have been changed almost entirely, the Reavers have lost their nasty impact hits, and the best they can do in combat is a mortal wound and a few S4 AP -1 attacks. Sure, they can get there turn 1, but unless your opponent is taking them for less points than he should - for whatever reason - I think these are one of the weaker units in the new Index and nothing to worry about. As you say, perhaps bubblewrap any really squishy units they might target (or deploy them away from them) and you should be ok.

Get some fast Daemon units of your own to engage Dark Eldar vehicles. Plague Drones and Screamers come to mind.

Keep some units available for summoning or Deep-Striking into their back line to engage their units from multiple angles.

Make sure you have some cheap screening units to hold off their charge. Nurglings and Brimstone horrors are great at this.

The best way to take down Venoms and Raiders is through volume of fire, especially S7. Plasma and Autocannons are your friend.

 The Shadow wrote:

 -Steppenwolf- wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheSnowmanInHell wrote:
Just want to pop in real quick and say you need to check again about the dirt cheapness of those jetbikes. If theyre cheap in any way they arent DE.

Duly noted. I think my buddy said they're about 70pts for a 3 man unit with a blaster? Lot better than I can do with chaos bikes haha

Unless there's been some FAQ that's amended this, the Reaver Jetbikes are 30 points a pop - not dirt cheap at all. That makes a squad of 3 with a blaster/heat lance 105/115 points. Considering cluster caltrops have been changed almost entirely, the Reavers have lost their nasty impact hits, and the best they can do in combat is a mortal wound and a few S4 AP -1 attacks. Sure, they can get there turn 1, but unless your opponent is taking them for less points than he should - for whatever reason - I think these are one of the weaker units in the new Index and nothing to worry about. As you say, perhaps bubblewrap any really squishy units they might target (or deploy them away from them) and you should be ok.

Ah ok he may have made a calculation error then, I'll ask. And I'm not really concerned with the damage they put out - it's mostly about them tying up a fire support unit that's more important than them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Get some fast Daemon units of your own to engage Dark Eldar vehicles. Plague Drones and Screamers come to mind.

Keep some units available for summoning or Deep-Striking into their back line to engage their units from multiple angles.

Make sure you have some cheap screening units to hold off their charge. Nurglings and Brimstone horrors are great at this.

The best way to take down Venoms and Raiders is through volume of fire, especially S7. Plasma and Autocannons are your friend.

I'm not sure how the engaging plan works, since the DE vehicles can just move away and keep shooting (and I already do this with charging Rhinos), but otherwise all good tips - thanks. I might try a raptor squad with 2x plasma gun and 2x plasma pistols along with a chaos lord in addition to my combi-plasma chosen - but is plasma good when I can't really afford to overcharge against venoms since I would overheat on 2s?

 -Steppenwolf- wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Get some fast Daemon units of your own to engage Dark Eldar vehicles. Plague Drones and Screamers come to mind.

Keep some units available for summoning or Deep-Striking into their back line to engage their units from multiple angles.

Make sure you have some cheap screening units to hold off their charge. Nurglings and Brimstone horrors are great at this.

The best way to take down Venoms and Raiders is through volume of fire, especially S7. Plasma and Autocannons are your friend.

I'm not sure how the engaging plan works, since the DE vehicles can just move away and keep shooting (and I already do this with charging Rhinos), but otherwise all good tips - thanks. I might try a raptor squad with 2x plasma gun and 2x plasma pistols along with a chaos lord in addition to my combi-plasma chosen - but is plasma good when I can't really afford to overcharge against venoms since I would overheat on 2s?

Fighting anything with FLY is about hitting them hard enough to where they will die before they can Fall Back. Even with the -1 To Hit and the 5++ save, a Venom is significantly less durable than a Rhino chassis. Enough attacks thrown at it or anything with a Power/Chain Fist will kill a Venom in one round.

If you have that much Plasma and are in rapid-fire range of the Venom, you shouldn't need to overcharge. Especially if you can finish it off in CC immediately afterward.

 TheNewBlood wrote:



If you have that much Plasma and are in rapid-fire range of the Venom, you shouldn't need to overcharge. Especially if you can finish it off in CC immediately afterward.

It's an efficiency issue, sure anything dies if I through enough attacks at it, but a venom is only about 100 points. So they will show up in large numbers. I'm wondering if there's a way to kill them without spending like 300pts worth of shooting at it.

Raiders, venoms, scourges, reavers... have the fly keyword but they don't have the airborne special rule, which means you can assault them if you want to. And they're all fragile units, which means you can kill them quite easily in close combat.

Reavers are also not supercheap at all, in this edition they got quite nerfed actually.

Venoms and raiders are only T5, venoms only got 6W which makes them probably the weakest transport in the game. Yes they can dodge bullets but T5, 6W and 4+ save can't be that scary.

In close combat chaos units should obliterate the dark eldar ones since we only have grotesques and talos that do something, and still far from being super punchy, maybe even incubi but only if they attack first otherwise they'll get slaughtered against pretty much everything.

Razorwing flocks were quite nasty but the latest FAQ doubled their points cost making them useless once again.

 -Steppenwolf- wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Against Venoms or Raiders Maybe spam Heldrakes? At least you get D6 auto hits so goes around the -1 to hit. And S6 multi damage is not bad.

I've thought about that as well, but the problem is that Heldrakes are much more expensive than a single venom or raider, and even if it manages to wreck the vehicle in a single turn (which isn't anywhere near a guarantee) the squad inside just piles out and I haven't reduced their anti-armour firepower at all, and the heldrake gets turned to slag on their turn. And now I've just lost almost 200 pts to kill a 100 pt vehicle, if I even managed to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheSnowmanInHell wrote:
Just want to pop in real quick and say you need to check again about the dirt cheapness of those jetbikes. If theyre cheap in any way they arent DE.

Duly noted. I think my buddy said they're about 70pts for a 3 man unit with a blaster? Lot better than I can do with chaos bikes haha

They're 90 points base with nothing on 'em, so nope.

Also, something to note: All DE vehicles have a rule that specifically states that if the vehicle falls back, it can still shoot, BUT the unit inside cannot shoot from the vehicle, if they want to shoot they must disembark. So charging a raider or venom even if you don't intend to kill it is very worthwhile if there's say 10 warriors inside.

Best options for CSMs, in my eyes:

1) Dakkapreds. 2x HB, 1x Autocannon, a very cheap anti-armor option available to all csm legions that does crazy damage. -1AP weapons are peak efficiency at dealing with DE vehicles, as they are all 4+sv, 5++ invuln. Theyre also mostly T5, meaning even HBs wound on 4+.

2) AC Havocs. Same deal, wound on 3s, -1AP, good damage output. A unit of these will mostly kill a transport. Dark Eldar are also for the most part very very very bad at killing marines sitting in cover, since they don't have a ton of high ap, high volume anti infantry weapons. Pretty much only disintegrators, and most DE players are running lances these days since they're quite strong.

3) Warptime+A Deep Strike unit. Dark Eldar mostly lack template weapons, so their overwatch is very non-threatening. Combine with my initial point above (turning off their shooting when you charge their transports) and points 1 and 2 (so you can pop some transports before you go in) and a big unit of deep striking terminators, raptors, or warp talons can get a guaranteed charge and murderize the crap out of a whole bunch of units OR jump in and tie up a whole gunline.

4) Heldrakes are the last word in anti-flyer killyness. Great when paired with #3 to add additional anti armor punch to the big deep strike charge, since they can charge turn 1 with laughable ease. Given how strong Razorwing and Voidraven fighters are this edition, having something that can put the kibosh on them in a single turn is not a bad idea, and the Heldrake certainly does that. Hard to Hit and an invuln helps it survive lances as well.

These are three handy tricks that will give you a solid edge against a basic DE list.

the_scotsman wrote:


They're 90 points base with nothing on 'em, so nope.

Also, something to note: All DE vehicles have a rule that specifically states that if the vehicle falls back, it can still shoot, BUT the unit inside cannot shoot from the vehicle, if they want to shoot they must disembark. So charging a raider or venom even if you don't intend to kill it is very worthwhile if there's say 10 warriors inside.

Best options for CSMs, in my eyes:

1) Dakkapreds. 2x HB, 1x Autocannon, a very cheap anti-armor option available to all csm legions that does crazy damage. -1AP weapons are peak efficiency at dealing with DE vehicles, as they are all 4+sv, 5++ invuln. Theyre also mostly T5, meaning even HBs wound on 4+.

2) AC Havocs. Same deal, wound on 3s, -1AP, good damage output. A unit of these will mostly kill a transport. Dark Eldar are also for the most part very very very bad at killing marines sitting in cover, since they don't have a ton of high ap, high volume anti infantry weapons. Pretty much only disintegrators, and most DE players are running lances these days since they're quite strong.

3) Warptime+A Deep Strike unit. Dark Eldar mostly lack template weapons, so their overwatch is very non-threatening. Combine with my initial point above (turning off their shooting when you charge their transports) and points 1 and 2 (so you can pop some transports before you go in) and a big unit of deep striking terminators, raptors, or warp talons can get a guaranteed charge and murderize the crap out of a whole bunch of units OR jump in and tie up a whole gunline.

4) Heldrakes are the last word in anti-flyer killyness. Great when paired with #3 to add additional anti armor punch to the big deep strike charge, since they can charge turn 1 with laughable ease. Given how strong Razorwing and Voidraven fighters are this edition, having something that can put the kibosh on them in a single turn is not a bad idea, and the Heldrake certainly does that. Hard to Hit and an invuln helps it survive lances as well.

These are three handy tricks that will give you a solid edge against a basic DE list.

Ah those vehicles are only T5! I was definitely being bamboozled then, cuz I thought they were T6 and my power axes were only wounding on 5s. Makes the Heldrake option a lot more appealing too.

 -Steppenwolf- wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 -Steppenwolf- wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheSnowmanInHell wrote:
Just want to pop in real quick and say you need to check again about the dirt cheapness of those jetbikes. If theyre cheap in any way they arent DE.

Duly noted. I think my buddy said they're about 70pts for a 3 man unit with a blaster? Lot better than I can do with chaos bikes haha

Unless there's been some FAQ that's amended this, the Reaver Jetbikes are 30 points a pop - not dirt cheap at all. That makes a squad of 3 with a blaster/heat lance 105/115 points. Considering cluster caltrops have been changed almost entirely, the Reavers have lost their nasty impact hits, and the best they can do in combat is a mortal wound and a few S4 AP -1 attacks. Sure, they can get there turn 1, but unless your opponent is taking them for less points than he should - for whatever reason - I think these are one of the weaker units in the new Index and nothing to worry about. As you say, perhaps bubblewrap any really squishy units they might target (or deploy them away from them) and you should be ok.

Ah ok he may have made a calculation error then, I'll ask. And I'm not really concerned with the damage they put out - it's mostly about them tying up a fire support unit that's more important than them.

In that case, as others have said, you need yourself some screening units. These are pretty useful overall in this edition, due to the number of things that can deepstrike (and subsequently charge) as well as the fact that (snipers aside) you can only target characters if they're the closest unit to you. Basically, any cheap unit will do for this, though ideally they'll be mobile. If the support unit in question is a character, you'll be able to bubblewrap them and they'll literally be un-targetable (aside from things like snipers and bombs) until the bubblewrap unit is destroyed. This is a bit more difficult if the unit in question is several models, but can still be done with several small units.