Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?

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**Future War Cultist**

I think Scions should go the whole hog and receive a lot of the bonuses Primarus Marine Reviers receive. They've already got the grav chute ability. They should also receive the same bonus granted by the grappling hooks. And dare I say it, but access to shock grenades too?

What I'm saying is, what the reavers do for the marines the Scions should do for the guard.

**Chris521**

I would love to see a bit of an overhaul of the Leman Russ platform. Here are my ideas.

First off, I want lumbering behemoth so they can be used as a proper weapons platform. This would also apply to all of the bigger tanks as well, though the Baneblades would probably need to be a bit more expensive.

Next, I would like the commissar tank to be added back in as well as having a veteran tank upgrade (simply +1 BS).

I would then change some of the turret weapons. Some of these weapons would certainly need to be a bit more expensive.

Battle cannon: keep the same but a little cheaper. I’m envisioning this as the weakest but cheap option.

Punisher cannon: fine as is

Demolisher Cannon: fine (but perhaps a small points reduction)

Vanquisher: Make it Heavy d3. A single shot from this tank has been a problem even before this edition. I would consider giveing it a rule to make all of the shots apply to a single target. This would stop this weapons from turning into something more than an armor/monster killer .

Eradicator Cannon: Maybe make it Heavy 2d6. Seems fluffy in that its supposed to be a huge explosion. I’m not really sure if the d3 damage would stay as is. This would separate it from the other blast weapons into it’s own niche instead of being a worse battle cannon

Exterminator: Many people were expecting this to be heavy 8 before it came out. 8 may be pushing it, but Heavy 6 could put it in a good spot.

Executioner: This weapon doesn’t necessarily need a buff, but to differentiate it from the battle cannon I would make it Heavy 3d3. This would also put it back to those 3 blasts that it used to have. (this weapon in particular would need a cost increase)

Finally, instead of a flat points reduction to the platform, I would spread it out. The standard russ could be 10 points cheaper while pask could be 10-15 points more expensive. Tank commanders would split the difference by staying the same.

It could look like this:

Russ 122 points
Veteran 147 point
Commissar 157 points
Commander 167
Pask 187

The Leman Russ platform could be so versatile if GW would just let it. Have a box with a gun on it for like 140 points or spend 250+ points arming Pask to the teeth.

Frankly I would happily take a 1 point increase to conscripts and guardsman as well as some point increases for scions and plasma guns in return for an overhaul like this

Moving on from the Russ, those old chimeras with the weapons are really cool. I would love some Hellhound like tanks with some more weapon variety.

**vipoid**

Do you really think guardsmen need a price-hike?

**Chris521**

vipoid wrote:
Do you really think guardsmen need a price-hike?

I was only trying to keep it consistent with a conscript hike. The real point was that I'm trying help the Russ, not buff the guard.

**vipoid**

Chris521 wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Do you really think guardsmen need a price-hike?

I was only trying to keep it consistent with a conscript hike. The real point was that I'm trying help the Russ, not buff the guard.

It seems wrong to buff one area at the expense of unnecessary nerfs elsewhere though.

**pismakron**

Leman Russ needs a buff and Conscripts + plasma-scions needs a whack with the nerf-bat. The nerf is in the pipe, I wonder if the buff is.

**daedalus**

I'm still unconvinced that conscripts are really that good. I do expect to see Scions become less good though.

**Melissia**

Neither guardsmen nor conscripts need a price hike. Their durability is not out of whack with anyone else's durability, for that matter, it takes overkill-levels of firepower to take down most units in one turn right now. Let's not turn this thread into yet another whinefest over conscripts. We have two threads about that already.

**Kanluwen**

daedalus wrote:
I'm still unconvinced that conscripts are really that good. I do expect to see Scions become less good though.

Realistically, Scions have needed a redesign for quite some time.

I don't know what or how, but there's something to be done there.

**Howscat**

Scions need to have their plasma gun weapons cost increased. They also should be run in a different detachment from regular guard.

**Future War Cultist**

I've got loads of suggestions for Scions.

**Howscat**

Future War Cultist wrote:
I've got loads of suggestions for Scions.

Do tell....

**master of ordinance**

If anything I would say that Storm Troopers and Conscripts need to remain the same, and regular Guardsmen and Veterans need to be buffed to their level.
Veterans especially need some love, and I can honestly not tell whether they where an oversight, the result of a lazy writer, a deliberate nerf to force Guard players to purchase new models or a malicious jab.Right now Veterans are a joke, taking up and Elites slot, costing far more than regular Guardsmen for nothing more than a slightly better BS and completely lacking all the cool options and upgrades that made them fun to run back in the older editions.

The LRBT also needs a damn good looking at as the Battlecannon is currently outrageously weak, having all the explosive potential of a hand grenade despite it obviously being a lot bigger. At the very least it needs to be HE 2d6. The other variants also need looking at, especially the Exterminator which should be TL in all honesty.

**Kanluwen**

Howscat wrote:
Scions need to have their plasma gun weapons cost increased. They also should be run in a different detachment from regular guard.

That's coming whenever we get the codices, I think.

They already require Tempestor Primes to issue them Orders.

**Future War Cultist**

Howscat wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
I've got loads of suggestions for Scions.

Do tell....

Basically I'd like to see scions become our answer to primarus rievers and tau pathfinders. They're nearly there but not quite.

Make hot shot lasguns assault 2. Give them hot shot laspistols as well, and access to shock grenades and the ability to deploy in a forward position. So their wargear would look like this:

Hotshot lasgun
Hotshot laspistol
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Possible shock grenades

I'm also wondering if their specials should be reduced from 2 per 5 to 1 per 5, to reduce plasma spam. Oh, and increase their LD to match the sisters. It just makes sense.

**vipoid**

With regard to Scions, I think we should be careful. GW already has a tendency to use a sledgehammer when a scalpel would have been enough, and I'd really rather that Scions didn't just end up as overpriced garbage for another 2 editions.

I think an increase in the price of plasmaguns might well be enough. But even that is something I hope doesn't get too out of control (let's not forget that plasmaguns aren't exclusive to Scions and several of our other bodies don't have their advantages).

Another possibility would be to put regular Scions in the Elite slot. Perhaps they could be troops if your army/detachment contains only MT models?

master of ordinance wrote:
If anything I would say that Storm Troopers and Conscripts need to remain the same, and regular Guardsmen and Veterans need to be buffed to their level.
Veterans especially need some love, and I can honestly not tell whether they where an oversight, the result of a lazy writer, a deliberate nerf to force Guard players to purchase new models or a malicious jab.Right now Veterans are a joke, taking up and Elites slot, costing far more than regular Guardsmen for nothing more than a slightly better BS and completely lacking all the cool options and upgrades that made them fun to run back in the older editions.

Vets do indeed need a reason to be taken. I think moving them to the Elites slot was a mistake - especially given that our army seems best suited to the Batallion and Brigade detachments (both of which have a heavy requirement of troop choices). And then you have the various nerfs to the Chimera along with its considerable increase in price.

Also, I want to know who thought it would be a good idea to move SWSs to Elites?

**Future War Cultist**

Guys, I had a bizarre idea. What if vets were an upgrade for regular infantry squads rather than a separate unit? Let infantry squads take up to 2 specials along with a heavy weapon team, then you can spend a CP to turn them into vets, giving them +1 BS. Vets as troops again.

And if regimental Doctrines become a thing again, then all IG infantry could get them. Except for conscripts.

This doesn't have to be limited to infantry squads. Chimeras, sentinels, anything that isn't a character, a scion, a conscript or an abhuman.

This could go the other way for conscripts. A stratagem called "send in the next wave". Costs x amount of CPs, allows you to regenerate a destroyed unit of conscripts.

**master of ordinance**

Wait, what happened to the Chimera?!

**daedalus**

Future War Cultist wrote:

This could go the other way for conscripts. A stratagem called "send in the next wave". Costs x amount of CPs, allows you to regenerate a destroyed unit of conscripts.

Would be worth it for the heads exploding.

**NenkotaMoon**

Explode them heads.

**ross-128**

master of ordinance wrote:
Wait, what happened to the Chimera?!

The main things off the top of my head:
1: it lost its fire ports, so you can't shoot heavy/special weapons out the top hatch anymore.
2: it lost command tank, so it can't be an order bus anymore.
3: its ability to fire heavy weapons while moving got a -1 penalty tacked on to it.
4: it went from 65 points with weapons to 91 points with weapons (or 93 points with the multilaser).

If nothing else I'd like to see it at least get command tank back. Sure, the new character rules kind of make its "extra layer of armor" feature obsolete, but the size of the hull would effectively extend the area of the order bubble a bit, and it would be amusing to have the lone embarked officer firing six lasguns.

**vipoid**

master of ordinance wrote:
Wait, what happened to the Chimera?!

- It lost Command Vehicle.
- It lose its fire points.
- Its movement now degrades as it takes wounds.
- Its already pitiful BS degrades as it takes wounds.
- If it moves at all then *all* non-flamer weapons suffer -1 to hit.
- The Multilaser is now overpriced garbage.
- It now costs 91pts base (with 2 HBs), and 109 if you run it with 2 Heavy Flamers.

**Future War Cultist**

I think it lost amphibious as well.

@ daedalus & NenkotaMoon

It would definitely require a minimum of 3 CPs to pull off. It does seem like cheese though, if I'm honest.

**argonak**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Howscat wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
I've got loads of suggestions for Scions.

Do tell....

Basically I'd like to see scions become our answer to primarus rievers and tau pathfinders. They're nearly there but not quite.

Make hot shot lasguns assault 2. Give them hot shot laspistols as well, and access to shock grenades and the ability to deploy in a forward position. So their wargear would look like this:

Hotshot lasgun
Hotshot laspistol
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Possible shock grenades

I'm also wondering if their specials should be reduced from 2 per 5 to 1 per 5, to reduce plasma spam. Oh, and increase their LD to match the sisters. It just makes sense.

As a scion player, I think that's a terrible idea. Assault is a horrible ability for the IG. When would we ever want to be advancing? Rapid Fire is IG's thing. And NO I do not want to have to pay for stupid pistols I would never use.

Plasma guns on scions aren't the problem. The problem is that we can deep strike them into rapid fire range on a 4 man suicide squad.

My changes:
1. Make us pay for deep strike, by giving us jump pack options.
2. Delete command squads. Move their options over to the main squad. Keep specials as 2 for 5, or 4 for 10.

Command squads are leftovers from a previous edition design. All their options should just be given to a regular squad. A 4 man squad of T3 troops (even scions with their armor) with heavy investment of special abilities is just asking to be shot to pieces. Put the med kit and the banner in as options for the normal squad. Problem resolved.

This would let GW adjust the cost of deep strike, and give us a reason to put our scions back in their Tauroxes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
I'm still unconvinced that conscripts are really that good. I do expect to see Scions become less good though.

I don't think GW has changed their colors enough to ever nerf something that makes people buy 50 man units of troopers that cost $3 each.

**ross-128**

If GW does drop an Exterminatus on all our good stuff, I hope at least we manage to move enough models while it lasts to make them start seeing us as a "main" faction on par with SM and CSM. A guardsman can dream...

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

I think, regarding Stormtroopers:

1: Stormtroopers go back to being Elites.
2: Remove Grav Chute ability, make it cost 3ppm to upgrade a unit to have Grav Chutes

WRT Command Squads:

Remove all Command Squads, make them a mandatory part of their respective officer again. Remove the ability for them to take special and heavy weapons.

And yes, I am still am and always will be annoyed about Stormtroopers, excuse me, Scions, being their own army, and getting their own hardback book.

**ross-128**

I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.

**master of ordinance**

ross-128 wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Wait, what happened to the Chimera?!

The main things off the top of my head:
1: it lost its fire ports, so you can't shoot heavy/special weapons out the top hatch anymore.
2: it lost command tank, so it can't be an order bus anymore.
3: its ability to fire heavy weapons while moving got a -1 penalty tacked on to it.
4: it went from 65 points with weapons to 91 points with weapons (or 93 points with the multilaser).

If nothing else I'd like to see it at least get command tank back. Sure, the new character rules kind of make its "extra layer of armor" feature obsolete, but the size of the hull would effectively extend the area of the order bubble a bit, and it would be amusing to have the lone embarked officer firing six lasguns.

vipoid wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Wait, what happened to the Chimera?!

- It lost Command Vehicle.
- It lose its fire points.
- Its movement now degrades as it takes wounds.
- Its already pitiful BS degrades as it takes wounds.
- If it moves at all then *all* non-flamer weapons suffer -1 to hit.
- The Multilaser is now overpriced garbage.
- It now costs 91pts base (with 2 HBs), and 109 if you run it with 2 Heavy Flamers.

This is a sick joke, right?

**Melissia**

Sadly, no, it's correct. Chimeras got hit HARD.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

ross-128 wrote:I don't know, that's a bit harsh don't you think? We have to take a lot more officers in this edition than previously due to how detachments are structured, tacking an extra mandatory 24 points of lasgun dudes onto each one would be quite a heavy tax for 30 and 20 point models.

No. FRFSRF is hilariously under-priced as is, and the Command Squad would also be a vehicle for Vox casters, battle standards, etc. An officer should have a command section around him anyway.

master of ordinance wrote:

This is a sick joke, right?

The Chimera got more resilient, though. But really, the loss of fire points, effectively kills any purpose it might have had. Oh well.

All vehicles went up in price, and, as a transport, it's pretty fair, all things considered. However, that requires us to have something we want to get closer to the enemy.