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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 16:52:25
Subject: Re:Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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d-usa wrote:
My grandmother is visiting from Germany and fell on Friday and was taken by EMS to a hospital here. She had international coverage on her German insurance plan, and that information was given to the hospital. While in the ER, someone from administration was telling my family members there that unless they are putting down a cash deposit or a credit card, they would stop treatment and discharge her from the ER. When it became clear that she required admission it changed to them my family "she can be admitted, but she won't be able to be discharged unless there was a cash deposit or credit card on file".
At this point I called them to let them know that we'll be forwarding this interaction to CMS and Joint Commission to investigate an EMTALA violation, and that's when everybody stopped harassing my family about payment.
Absolutely disgusting.
I can see something about non immedietly life threatening treatment but an Emergency room?
ffs
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 17:44:57
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I guess I am completely wrong about this, and all those news stories and facts about families keeping relatives on life support for years after they had been ruled brain dead never happened.
You guys should probably have told these facts to Terri Schiavo's husband so he could have ended her life against the wishes of her parents 7 years earlier....
Don't make up facts to back up your claim.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 17:53:47
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Ok, but you have to stop drawing false equivalencies.
This little lad was already essentially out of options, then he had seizures which caused brain damage that compounded the issue. His mitochondrial disorder was already essentially a death sentence, this isn't the same as someone suffering a brain injury and then cheating the odds.
I'm not going to pretend for one second I don't understand the thought processes of the parents, especially as it appears there may have been agendas at work that's led them towards false hope, but the kiddy had no hope from birth.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 17:58:26
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Azreal13 wrote:Ok, but you have to stop drawing false equivalencies.
This little lad was already essentially out of options, then he had seizures which caused brain damage that compounded the issue. His mitochondrial disorder was already essentially a death sentence, this isn't the same as someone suffering a brain injury and then cheating the odds.
I'm not going to pretend for one second I don't understand the thought processes of the parents, especially as it appears there may have been agendas at work that's led them towards false hope, but the kiddy had no hope from birth.
I have drawn zero false equivalencies, I agree with everything you said. I just don't see why the parents were denied the right to try. It would cost the government nothing and could have advanced medical knowledge that might have saved lives down the line. This is basically a case where the government and medical professionals got to over ride the parents legal rights because they felt they knew better. Now I do understand that sometimes this is both important and necessary, as in the examples mentioned above. But ironically, in all those situations its the parents refusing a treatment that might save their child's life so the state/medical field steps in and supersedes the parents desires, I haven't seen anyone mention a case where the government/medical field steps in to stop a possibly life extending treatment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:03:44
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Drakhun
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It's because the doctors are there to look out for the best interests of the patient.
His parents, caring as they are were not the patient. They believed he had suffered enough, and the "treatment" would only extend his suffering, so pulling the plug was in his best interests.
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DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:03:52
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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They step in every day, when nobody else advocates and speaks for the patient.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:09:32
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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d-usa wrote:They step in every day, when nobody else advocates and speaks for the patient.
So his parents weren't advocating or speaking out for their child? No, they were, they just disagreed with the medical professionals and were therefore over ruled. And that doesn't happen in the US. Schiavo was finally allowed to die because the person who had the most say in her personal welfare was her husband and he was the one fighting her parents to pull the feeding tube. If her husband had said, yeah lets keep her on it and hope for the best they would have continued to do so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:12:37
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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SemperMortis wrote:I guess I am completely wrong about this, and all those news stories and facts about families keeping relatives on life support for years after they had been ruled brain dead never happened.
You guys should probably have told these facts to Terri Schiavo's husband so he could have ended her life against the wishes of her parents 7 years earlier....
Don't make up facts to back up your claim.
Nobody is making up facts, you're confusing different issues in different places with different rules with different circumstances at different times, emotionally deflecting to another similarly politically charged event.
Again, there was never any hope the kid would get better, even if the US treatment were 100% successful, at lottery level odds, he'd still be a human potato on a very short countdown clock. The child was not going to get better, even the US doctor made that clear, only the mitochondrial degradation would have been addressed, but not the already extant damage caused. The treatment would not have affected that one bit.
The "he's dying anyway, go ahead and just do whatever experiments you want to him" line of thinking is one discouraged by the medical community for a reason.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/25 18:13:31
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:15:51
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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It does happen in the US. All the time. I'm not going to post examples of cases as that is not appropriate, and will just get in to arguments over details, but here is some national health institute papers on the background of withdrawal of treatment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4147759/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1124803/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3995268/
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/25 18:16:20
insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:16:21
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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SemperMortis wrote: Azreal13 wrote:Ok, but you have to stop drawing false equivalencies.
This little lad was already essentially out of options, then he had seizures which caused brain damage that compounded the issue. His mitochondrial disorder was already essentially a death sentence, this isn't the same as someone suffering a brain injury and then cheating the odds.
I'm not going to pretend for one second I don't understand the thought processes of the parents, especially as it appears there may have been agendas at work that's led them towards false hope, but the kiddy had no hope from birth.
I have drawn zero false equivalencies, I agree with everything you said. I just don't see why the parents were denied the right to try. It would cost the government nothing and could have advanced medical knowledge that might have saved lives down the line. This is basically a case where the government and medical professionals got to over ride the parents legal rights because they felt they knew better. Now I do understand that sometimes this is both important and necessary, as in the examples mentioned above. But ironically, in all those situations its the parents refusing a treatment that might save their child's life so the state/medical field steps in and supersedes the parents desires, I haven't seen anyone mention a case where the government/medical field steps in to stop a possibly life extending treatment.
It is because the doctor who said there was a 10% chance of some improvement with his previously untested treatment that wasn't designed for this kind of disease not only had not examined the patient, he had not even bothered to read the case notes before he said that. It then turned out he had a financial interest in the parents turning their son over to his care.
Sorry to say but with this complete lack of any patient care focus, Dr Hirano made himself look much less good a doctor than the DakDak OT Forum panel. There comes a point at which I have to accept that the staff of the world's best childrens' specialist hospitals, plus a group of independent medical experts, actually do know better than some guy who couldn't be bothered to read the case notes.
The BMA have made very strong criticism of Dr Hirano, saying he has much to reflect upon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:21:04
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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DakDak OT medical ethics panel... Now there's a frightening thought.
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insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:21:33
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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SemperMortis wrote: d-usa wrote:They step in every day, when nobody else advocates and speaks for the patient.
So his parents weren't advocating or speaking out for their child?
No, they were advocating for themselves. Which happens every day, in all walks of life, with children and adults. And it happens for many reasons. It can be "I'm not ready to loose my family member", it can be "I can't live with the guilt of giving up, it can be "I will feel like I killed my family member", and sometimes it is "As long as that ventilator keeps a heart beating, I'll keep on getting the pension/disability/social security check". People decide things every day, some make those decisions based on what's best for the patient, some make these decisions based on what they can or cannot deal with.
No, they were, they just disagreed with the medical professionals and were therefore over ruled.
Listen, I know it's 2017 and we are living in a world where "feth the experts, we know more than them" has become the norm. But medical professionals get to make these decisions when nobody else makes decisions based on what's best for the patient.
And that doesn't happen in the US.
It happens every single day, in every single hospital. I've been part of these things. We have a very well established legal process for this, and ethical guidelines for implementing them. You might not know about them, but they are there.
Schiavo was finally allowed to die because the person who had the most say in her personal welfare was her husband and he was the one fighting her parents to pull the feeding tube. If her husband had said, yeah lets keep her on it and hope for the best they would have continued to do so.
Courts made the decision with her, same as they made the decision for the child. And in both cases courts relied on the medical expertise of the doctors to make that decision. In both cases it was doctors who have never examined the patient providing opinions that prolonged the cases.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:27:32
Subject: Re:Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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d-usa wrote: jhe90 wrote: d-usa wrote:SemperMortis wrote: What I do see though is a very big and real reason why I will fight against National Healthcare in the US.
This happens every day in the US, in hospitals run by the Government, Religious Hospitals, Non-Profit Hospitals, and For-Profit Hospitals. The United States withdraws treatment from patients against the wishes of family members every single day, using the same process that was utilized in this case.
How many parents in US could afford 8 months plus of high level ICU care 24/7 and services of a 2 international Doctors, elite medical teams and a specialised hospital..
Unrelated and anecdotal:
My grandmother is visiting from Germany and fell on Friday and was taken by EMS to a hospital here. She had international coverage on her German insurance plan, and that information was given to the hospital. While in the ER, someone from administration was telling my family members there that unless they are putting down a cash deposit or a credit card, they would stop treatment and discharge her from the ER. When it became clear that she required admission it changed to them my family "she can be admitted, but she won't be able to be discharged unless there was a cash deposit or credit card on file".
At this point I called them to let them know that we'll be forwarding this interaction to CMS and Joint Commission to investigate an EMTALA violation, and that's when everybody stopped harassing my family about payment.
d... that's illegal as all hell. I'd report them to CMS/Joint Commission anyways... even call the local news/paper.
I actually had to sign a commitment with my employer as part of the hiring process to report any EMTALA violations.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:29:22
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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I disagree that doctors really truly advocate for their patients. They have no real motivation for that. To them, a patient is just a method to a paycheck. Doctors are also supposed to be emotionally disconnected with their patients just for their own emotional health, and rightly so. Without an emotional connection, you cant truly be an advocate for someone.
I know I wouldn't want a stranger who only sees me as a medical case to advocate for my wellbeing, or the well being of anybody I cared about.
Furthermore. You should never ever use any type of science, medical or otherwise, to make a moral decision. Letting science determine morality is not a place you want to go down.
Doctors should only list what the options are and what the potential outcomes of each are, and i would argue that they should be disallowed from suggesting letting a patient die. That could be seen as leading the patient, or the people making the decisions to a particular conclusion instead of letting them choose on their own.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/25 18:33:49
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:30:20
Subject: Re:Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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And the award for "most cynical post of 2017" goes to...
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:33:29
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Grey Templar wrote:I disagree that doctors really truly advocate for their patients. They have no real motivation for that. To them, a patient is just a method to a paycheck. Doctors are also supposed to be emotionally disconnected with their patients just for their own emotional health, and rightly so. Without an emotional connection, you cant truly be an advocate for someone.
I know I wouldn't want a stranger who only sees me as a medical case to advocate for my wellbeing, or the well being of anybody I cared about.
As someone who's spent the last 11 years suffering from a chronic, life limiting condition and has spent more time in and out of hospitals than most people will in a lifetime, I feel adequately qualified to declare this the most moronic thing I've read on this board, possibly ever, and that's you have zero fething idea what you're talking about. Frankly, if you've got any pride, walk away from the thread now and stop posting.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:41:59
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Grey Templar wrote:I disagree that doctors really truly advocate for their patients. They have no real motivation for that. To them, a patient is just a method to a paycheck. Doctors are also supposed to be emotionally disconnected with their patients just for their own emotional health, and rightly so. Without an emotional connection, you cant truly be an advocate for someone.
I know I wouldn't want a stranger who only sees me as a medical case to advocate for my wellbeing, or the well being of anybody I cared about.
Furthermore. You should never ever use any type of science, medical or otherwise, to make a moral decision. Letting science determine morality is not a place you want to go down.
Doctors should only list what the options are and what the potential outcomes of each are, and i would argue that they should be disallowed from suggesting letting a patient die. That could be seen as leading the patient, or the people making the decisions to a particular conclusion instead of letting them choose on their own.
Grey... I work in the healthcare industry and collaborate all the time with providers & clinicians throughout the states.
I don't get that sense that you do.... every clinician (be it nursing, doctors, technicians, whomever else has patient contact) absolutely advocates for the patient & their loved ones. I really don't know how it is in the UK, but I find it hard to believe that those clinicians are that different from we I've experienced here in the states.
There's a lot of moving parts to the Gard ordeal that is troublesome... but, I wouldn't assume that the providers/clinicians are "playing god" here or willingly being cheapskates here.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:43:29
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Can't get enough of people insisting on going on about the parents' legal rights being overruled when they don't have legal authority to decide what happens to the child in the first place. That's literally the entire reason for the courtcases.
Might be worth checking, whenever writing 'legal right', whether what you actually mean is 'what I think should be a/my/their legal right'.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/25 18:54:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:44:26
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Today I learned that I suffer from PTSD simply because I like the paycheck and don't care about the people.
Good to know.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:45:57
Subject: Re:Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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You should never ever use any type of science, medical or otherwise, to make a moral decision. Letting science determine morality is not a place you want to go down.
Could you explain the reasoning here? As it stands that is a truly bizarre statement and before I jump all over it I would love to know if there is some missunderstanding or something deeper to this.
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insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 18:50:08
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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This wholw thread had been a series of tuly bizarre statements from a certain corner.
*pops corn and pulls up chair*
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:04:08
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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LordofHats wrote:This wholw thread had been a series of tuly bizarre statements from a certain corner.
*pops corn and pulls up chair*
Eh... it's a little bit about parental rights, bioethics and smattering of governmental "protocols".
While it appears that UK laws gives the ultimate final decisions to Hospitals/doctors.
Whereas in the states, it's easier to appeal for continuance.
Maybe the whole underlining issue is that, by and large, almost all families does the necessary thing in dire medical circumstances. It's when there's obvious dictates & coercions (ie, in the Gard's case) that can lead to the fear that a patient is being abandoned.... knowwhatimean?
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:06:59
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Drakhun
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It might have to do with the fact that medical care is public here and private in the US.
US hospitals could be like casinos, they don't care how they affect your life when you give them all of your money.
Its a different mind set here methinks.
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DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:10:14
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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That's a complete miss representation of the case. This isn't the courts or law giving final say to the doctors. The court heard evidence from other sides and ruled in favour of the hospital. Same as can happen in the US.
What evidence do you have that there was "obvious dictates & coercions", because that's not the case. If you haven't, I suggest you read the statement from GOSH.
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insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:12:29
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Steve steveson wrote:That's a complete miss representation of the case. This isn't the courts or law giving final say to the doctors. The court heard evidence from other sides and ruled in favour of the hospital. Same as can happen in the US.
What evidence do you have that there was "obvious dictates & coercions", because that's not the case. If you haven't, I suggest you read the statement from GOSH.
But if you read the material and get to grips at all with what's happened, you can't flatly claim that evil socialist death panels decided to murder a child rather than spend £50. That just wouldn't do when you've an important axe to grind.
I do find it very disappointing that almost everyone who thinks the court should have the ability to decide what's best based on the facts and the testimony of both family and experts has really stressed that the welfare of the child is absolutely the most important concern, whilst almost everyone taking the opposite position is primarily concerned with the parents' rights or the evils of a National Health Service.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/25 19:15:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:13:40
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Steve steveson wrote:That's a complete miss representation of the case. This isn't the courts or law giving final say to the doctors. The court heard evidence from other sides and ruled in favour of the hospital. Same as can happen in the US.
What evidence do you have that there was "obvious dictates & coercions", because that's not the case. If you haven't, I suggest you read the statement from GOSH.
Erm... who/what prevented the parents to facilitate that treatment initially?
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:20:25
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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What treatment?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:25:39
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau
USA
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It's a McGuffin. The details don't matter
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:27:57
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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The nucleoside treatment. Doesn't it boils down to this? a) parents want to try additional treatment b) parents somewhere in the timeline (I'm not sure) got $$ from donations that'll cover it c) parents couldn't get the treatment, even though they had the means (right???) Who/what stopped the parents at step C and why. FWIW: that GOSH pdf is a hella Public Relations response.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/25 19:29:49
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/07/25 19:32:52
Subject: Charlie Gard's parents give up legal battle over his life.
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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The courts. Because it was unethical and unproven. We have been through this repeatedly.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/25 19:34:47
insaniak wrote:Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons... |
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