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That detachments provided insane bonuses that were not balanced between armies and a ton of insane free stats, points, and abilities?

Well, I guess it wasn't exactly free since there were some arbitrarily easy unit requirement.

Anyone else feeling 8e is on the fast train to basically what broke 7e...

8th was broken the minute they allowed detachments made entirely of heavy support/elite/superheavies without the requirement of a huge core tax, and additionally making core infantry the only units able to score.

It's going to be like every other edition, some things will be broken and some things won't. Some people will make broken tournament spam lists, some will make fluff lists.

8th made some positive changes to the game, and it also did other things very poorly. It's like any other edition of 40k, the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.

Hauling a small library of books/supplements and their assorted FAQ/errata so you can comb through hundreds of pages of badly written rules to explain to your opponent how many special rules/exceptions you've layered on top of each other essentially reducing the act of playing the game redundant in the first place.

There has never been a version of 40K which didn't end up broken, and I agree 8th'll get there at some point - no question.

Thus far, it doesn't appear even close to 7th though in the amount of "here's my one trick pony which kills your army and you can't touch" kind of silly crap.

So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

Paper vehicles with fiddly vehicle rules making them even worse.
Too many unit types.
Unnecessary special rules.
Jink
Psychic phase
Formations (not the basic idea, but having no points costs and ranging from superstrong to useless).

I say that as someone who actually enjoyed 7th. edition due to our casual group. 8th seems better so far, though, especially the vehicle rules and AP system. Morale seems to be as useless as before, but I'll have to play more games to see that.

The reasons I never wanted to play 7th was that the rules were convoluted and bloated, I had to spend every 10-15 minutes trying to find a rule, and the amount of "free stuff" you could get was absurd.

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

I had no problems with 7th and thoroughly enjoyed all my games.


That said, I tended to just play out the rule book with a codex, which seems to circumvent many of the more common complaints on the edition.

Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

Except its not:

For example Malifuax does book based updates that update ALL factions, as did Warmachine - not sure if it does now as don;t really follwo it - as do various other war games.

As did the Indexes to start with.

They have chosen the Codex route as they can sell lots of expensive Codexes but that does not make i the best route. Obviously the downside of the multi army update book is that people get stuff thats not always for thier own faction.

I disagree OP. The main thing people complained about in 7th was broken psychic powers and over powered units/deathstars.

They have mostly fixed that. The psychic phase is much simpler - and deathstars are able to be killed now. Characters can be sniped AND they can't tank for units anymore.

The only thing left is to deal with overpowered units and I think that will just take time - to figure the balance. Your reaction to the marine codex isn't surprising - I thought the exact same thing at first. Just give it time. Don't think of them as free bonuses - they really are't free. The only way to get meaningful amounts of command points is to field troops - and troops in general in this game aren't very good. Think of it as a reward for taking troops.

There were dozens of chief complaints with 7th. For every one 8th fixed, it seems like it found something new to break. How much of a gamebreaker those things are remains to be seen.

I think a big problem in 7th was that there were a lot of situations where you rolled a ton of dice and nothing happened. Invisibility, 2+ re-roll saves, skew armies. In 8th most skew stuff is way too killy, but everything can die, so even in a losing game it is highly likely that you will do significant damage to your opponents army.

I began playing 7th edition a little while after it had been out but my understanding of the problem was codex creep and rules bloat. It didn't start off as bad as it ultimately ended, and yes I also think eight will go the same way.

Detachments/formations that had had huge disparity between factions was my main issue with it. And stupid ridiculous super friends deathstars/allies.

Also not so much 7th but GW at the time not doing anything about the issues. New GW with 8th is rolling FAQs out and making adjustments that might be needed.

Several complaints with 7e include:

-"All or nothing"/Russian Roulette situations. Stomp vs a Grimoired Screamerstar.
-Individual units, or Psychic Powers. The big ones are Scatbikes, Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, Invisibility.
-Imbalance between assorted Formations or codexes. (I imagine this one will be replaced with imbalance between assorted Stratagems/Chapter tactics, especially since a lot of Space Marine Stratagems are "ports" of 7e Formation bonuses!). The most notable ones were the Riptide Wing, Aspect Host, Gladius, and Fenrisian Pack (as a prelude to the Barkstar).
-Way too many USRs, many with very similar names that ended up doing different (unintuitive) things. Crusader means you run faster, Zealot means you Hate and are Fearless, you could Hate one enemy but Prefer another, and Furious Charge and Rage did different things! On the flip-side, 8e required a FAQ to clarify that "a Wolf Guard in Terminator armor counts as having the Terminator keyword for determining if it can enter a transport", because you don't have "mixed" units or model-scoped keywords instead of unit-scoped keywords (which also means 5 Deathwatch + 1 Deathwatch Terminator take up twelve spaces in a transport, instead of seven).

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
Detachments/formations that had had huge disparity between factions was my main issue with it. And stupid ridiculous super friends deathstars/allies.

Also not so much 7th but GW at the time not doing anything about the issues. New GW with 8th is rolling FAQs out and making adjustments that might be needed.

Truth be told, almost every Superfriend Deathstar was based on Dark Angels being BB with other Imperials, since their units were more expensive/"elite" as a whole, but they had amazing buff-pieces (Azrael, and the Darkshroud). This really only became noticable due to the Fenrisian Hunting Pack (which let you run a bunch of Fenrisian Wolves in a blob).

Other armies did not have anywhere near the same capacity to build deathstars. This one could easily have been patched by reworking the Hunting Pack to not be a "blob unit".

I don't know what the "big complaint" was but I had issues with Psychic powers, USR'S, all of them, Marker lights A crap codex and the abusive nature of 7th edition army lists.

I like the flexibility it lets me have for building an army but I do not like the way it works when adding allies and am not really a fan of formations mostly due to getting really poor formation options myself while others just get heaps and heaps of better. I was not a fan of being forced to fight challenges or issue them but have no way to actually win them. Just stupid.
The USR's needed to be organized and divided better. The language used to explain how they work/who they work on or with was not good at all. It reads to me like double speak.
My friend plays TA'U he rattles on about synergy and tells me to use more of it but I look in my codex and there's basically none to be had. Instead I have Mob rule. which is for suck.
Psychic Powers were probably my smallest complaint but reading about using the same few and why there the bestist.
While not having access to them.
Or I could just sum it up as 7th edition was an angry edition and made me not way to play because I felt like every game would be a loss, Orks just didn't play like Orks.
The rules weren't bad really but the armies weren't on a level enough playing field.
I was ready to sell everything and then we got the 8th edition rumors and leaks and suddenly I wanted to play again.
So far I've had good games and not be at a disadvantage for playing my chosen faction.

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Well, to start with I meant I don't play AS a gunline. I tend to favor mid-range/melee armies and balanced armies.
Also 3CPs isn't cheap, so it seems fair to me that you're dumping possibly your entire CP stack into maybe two rounds of rerolling misses. I mean that means they're not rerolling saves or FnP on said captain if you bring snipers or whatever.

I also don't feel that blobbing your entire army into a 6" bubble is a particularly effective strategy

7th Edition was just messy and playing it was a mess. The more I play 8th edition the more I consider 7th edition an irredeemable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

Except its not:

For example Malifuax does book based updates that update ALL factions, as did Warmachine - not sure if it does now as don;t really follwo it - as do various other war games.

As did the Indexes to start with.

They have chosen the Codex route as they can sell lots of expensive Codexes but that does not make i the best route. Obviously the downside of the multi army update book is that people get stuff thats not always for thier own faction.

Well that's what the inevitable General's Handbook for Warhammer 40.000 will do. It will provide that "Entire game point change" that is an attempt to rebalance the game. The codexes will be more in depth faction information, very much similar to what Warmahordes does themselves.

Sim-Life wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Well, to start with I meant I don't play AS a gunline. I tend to favor mid-range/melee armies and balanced armies.
Also 3CPs isn't cheap, so it seems fair to me that you're dumping possibly your entire CP stack into maybe two rounds of rerolling misses. I mean that means they're not rerolling saves or FnP on said captain if you bring snipers or whatever.

I also don't feel that blobbing your entire army into a 6" bubble is a particularly effective strategy

"Bring snipers" isn't an all-comer strategy. It also doesn't work if said Chapter Master is buffing Razorbacks or other tanks (it's remarkably easy to block LOS with a metal box).

You get 3 CP for free by default, and 1 CP minimum for most any other detachment that isn't an Auxiliary or a standalone Superheavy.

A flat reroll to hit is superior to rerolling 1s, by merit of offsetting hit penalties. 3+ rerolling 1s is 28 in 36 hits, while 3s rerolling everything is 32 in 36 hits. However, 4s rerolling 1s is 21 in 36, but 4s rerolling everything is 27 in 36 (only 1 in 36 worse than 3s rerolling 1s) The difference continues to go in favor of flat rerolls the more hit penalties are applied.

It's still arguably superior to anything that is just a "singular" reroll, especially if you have spare Battalion CP on-hand and feel cheeky enough to want to play with multiple Predators.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

Except its not:

For example Malifuax does book based updates that update ALL factions, as did Warmachine - not sure if it does now as don;t really follwo it - as do various other war games.

As did the Indexes to start with.

They have chosen the Codex route as they can sell lots of expensive Codexes but that does not make i the best route. Obviously the downside of the multi army update book is that people get stuff thats not always for thier own faction.

Warmachine abandoned updating with new models for everything at once at the start of Mk3. Now they're working on bringing in new models along a certain theme one faction at a time. Basically how it works is they choose a faction, choose a sub-faction within them, make a bunch of new models related to that theme and possibly revise one or two older related units (for example the first set of rule were all related to Cygnar Trencher models), then playtest them, then submit them to community playtesting, then playtest them a bit more before officially releasing them a few months later with models to follow I guess? They haven't been clear on the model side of things. Incidentally, the community hated this approach because they felt it gave Cygnar an unfair advantage.

The difference between WMH and Malifaux however is that when they release new models the old ones don't get revised like they do under the GW codex system. The new models they bring in also don't have their models released all at once and can sometime take anywhere from a few months several years to be released.

 warhead01 wrote:
(r I could just sum it up as 7th edition was an angry edition and made me not way to play because I felt like every game would be a loss, Orks just didn't play like Orks.
The rules weren't bad really but the armies weren't on a level enough playing field.
I was ready to sell everything and then we got the 8th edition rumors and leaks and suddenly I wanted to play again.
So far I've had good games and not be at a disadvantage for playing my chosen faction.

I definitely sympathize with this. I played Orks in 5th, and lamented the loss of Wazdakka, Nob Troops, or other options that 7e stripped out. The Ork FAQ further read like the rule team was giving the finger ("Do Orks inflict S4 hits on each other, even though they're only S3?" "Yes. They're *really* fired up." "Is Grotsnik's Cybork body useless?" "Yes. He is quite mad after all!" and so on so forth).

Even if the 8e Mob Rule is better and the flattened damage charts mask the limited toolbox Orks have to work with, a lot of the same attitudes from 7th are still present in an Ork army. Hit mods penalize Orks way more than other armies (to the point the Orks literally cannot hit certain targets), which nullifies the idea of running them as a Dakka army. Ardboyz and Looted Wagons are gone, because "GW doesn't make models for them", and I seriously doubt they will get more options to let them run as anything else than a melee blob.

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Consider the fact that the RG tactic is compeltely negated at 12" and you'll realize it's actually the weakest one. Are you seriously complaining about a warlord trait that gives -1 AP bubble on 6's to wound? That might cause 3-4 wounds a game if you are lucky. -3 command points to get something that a lot of space marine armies are going to have anyways by playing draigo/gulliman. Then consider the fact a lot of other armies have access to 6" reroll hit bubbles to.

Comparable to 500 free points? I don't think so.

Lets compare that to what harlequins get and they don't even have a codex yet. The ability to advance and charge. Leave combat and advance and shot and charge.

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
So many major issues

Making several factions far superior to others - so we had the Power Dexes and everyone else.

Formations - lack of consistency - one faction might get a single weak Formation that provides little to no advantage whereas for zero cost Marines, Eldar and Necrons get massively powerful ones - Eldar in particular where an issue here as they already had extremely strong / OP units that then got better.

Making units within some factions so very much better than alternatives.

Tedious and unnecessary Psychic phase.

Sadly with the new Marine Codex we are seeing those problems beginning again - one specific Faction gets a big boost, the others may or may not get them in due course - which will range from a few weeks to next year, to sometime never.

I've not seen much of the Marine book but it doesn't seem like they'll be anywhere above most other armies in terms of stratagem/special rules/wargear. They have more OPTIONS but the systems in place don't mean that they can be as easily abused. They might have more stratagems but they still can only use them as much as everyone else uses theirs. Also this is how it is in every wargame ever. You can't focus on all things at one time, thats just the nature of the hobby.

But like I said, I've barely looked at the Marine stuff but there hasn't been any doom calling on the forums that I've seen except for the Raven Guard CT but I don't play gunlines so it's not a huge concern for me.

OT: 7th was bland and convoluted. I played like 2 games and they were super boring and silly in a not fun way.

Just because you refuse games versus gunlines doesn't mean gunlines aren't going to be absurdly broken with the amount of free gak Space Marines are getting.

A Space Marine gunline army with the new codex can:

1) take the free raven guard CTs to give your whole army -1 to hit them

2) Spend 3 CPs to turn a basic captain into a chapter master, allowing the whole gunline that deploys around him to reroll all to hit rolls

3) select the warlord trait that allows any to-wound rolls of six to get an extra -1AP, allowing the still 60pt chapter master to grant THAT to the entire army as well.

Is that on the scale of 500pts of free razorbacks? Probably not. Do you theoretically get something in return with your index armies? The ability to reroll 3 dice (which the Chapter Master will almost certainly quadruple in the first shooting phase the SM player takes) and a 6+ FNP on your warlord vs a buff to everything the marine player can stuff within 6" of the Chapter Master. Yeah, that's not free stuff at all.

This book puts Space Marines way, way ahead of everyone else. This is a known problem in Sigmar as well - Basically every competitive list is from the factions that have their codexes, and many major factions are still sitting around with the vastly inferior general's handbook. I don't expect 40k to be any different.

Well, to start with I meant I don't play AS a gunline. I tend to favor mid-range/melee armies and balanced armies.
Also 3CPs isn't cheap, so it seems fair to me that you're dumping possibly your entire CP stack into maybe two rounds of rerolling misses. I mean that means they're not rerolling saves or FnP on said captain if you bring snipers or whatever.

I also don't feel that blobbing your entire army into a 6" bubble is a particularly effective strategy

"Bring snipers" isn't an all-comer strategy. It also doesn't work if said Chapter Master is buffing Razorbacks or other tanks (it's remarkably easy to block LOS with a metal box).

You get 3 CP for free by default, and 1 CP minimum for most any other detachment that isn't an Auxiliary or a standalone Superheavy.

A flat reroll to hit is superior to rerolling 1s, by merit of offsetting hit penalties. 3+ rerolling 1s is 28 in 36 hits, while 3s rerolling everything is 32 in 36 hits. However, 4s rerolling 1s is 21 in 36, but 4s rerolling everything is 27 in 36 (only 1 in 36 worse than 3s rerolling 1s) The difference continues to go in favor of flat rerolls the more hit penalties are applied.

It's still arguably superior to anything that is just a "singular" reroll, especially if you have spare Battalion CP on-hand and feel cheeky enough to want to play with multiple Predators.

I love that you boiled my post down to "bring snipers", despite the fact that it was just a suggestion as to a situation where your opponent may want to save some CPs instead of burning them all over two turns. I remember why I dislike internet wargaming communities. Everything people dislike as strong is all powerful and unbeatable. You know what's great about 40k? You get given A LOT of tools in armies. You get flyers, deep strikers, charges on turn 1, snipers, alpha strikers, tanks, transports, hordes, flankers and probably more stuff I'm forgetting. If for some reason a single chapter master hiding behind a tank is something you legitimately worry about, maybe take one (or maybe several) of the tools the game gives you to fix that problem.

I mean I suppose you could just throw your hands up and lie down and die when your opponent puts down Raven Guard. Doesn't seem fun to me but whatever. Half the fun of games to me is overcoming my opponent with the tools I have, not just giving up at the first failed armor save.

Scatterlasers.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

"Bring snipers" isn't an all-comer strategy. It also doesn't work if said Chapter Master is buffing Razorbacks or other tanks (it's remarkably easy to block LOS with a metal box).

Bringing snipers isn't an All-Comer strategy, but it's exactly the strategy for killing Characters.
If you wanted to kill tanks, I'd recommend you brought an anti-tank weapon. It might not be all-comers, but it's the ideal weapon.

If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

You get 3 CP for free by default, and 1 CP minimum for most any other detachment that isn't an Auxiliary or a standalone Superheavy.

And is spending those 3 CP you get automatically the best tactic? Especially when a unit of snipers could remove that immediately? What if those 3 CP could have been better spent on another stratagem, or one allowing rerolls on that unit over 6" from the Chapter Master?

A flat reroll to hit is superior to rerolling 1s, by merit of offsetting hit penalties. 3+ rerolling 1s is 28 in 36 hits, while 3s rerolling everything is 32 in 36 hits. However, 4s rerolling 1s is 21 in 36, but 4s rerolling everything is 27 in 36 (only 1 in 36 worse than 3s rerolling 1s) The difference continues to go in favor of flat rerolls the more hit penalties are applied.

It's still arguably superior to anything that is just a "singular" reroll, especially if you have spare Battalion CP on-hand and feel cheeky enough to want to play with multiple Predators.

Only if you can make those buffs work. The benefit of normal CP is that they can buff what you need, wherever you need it. With these, sure, you get more rerolls, but in a smaller area. Is it worth getting to roll again another 16% of rolls (assuming a 3+ to hit)?

Basically harlequins have the Whitescars tactic and the ultramarines tactic (without the -1 modifier). Imagine how powerful this army will be once it gets some new rules to play with.

Two points - harlequins are not the same cost or stats as a Marine, they are only T3 etc etc

Also the important part is once it gets some new rules to play with so - late 2017, early 2018, late 2018 - maybe not at all if they are not considered a "Major Faction" worthy of a Codex.

remember 10 Codexes before Christmas- three already allocated to Loyalist or Chaos Marines, doubtless more will be so - so likely early 2018 at best before they get their new rules. And they will not be alone. That's why I disliked this style of army update and welcomed the Index books

Back OT - it was one of the major major complaints about 7th Ed -

Most people fell into the category of:

"My army has not got an update",
"My army got an update but its rubbish and much weaker than army X"
"My army got an update and its now so stupidly powerful that no one wants to play me."

Very few people were happy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you bring the right tools, then the job gets done easier. And there's only about one faction that has no sniper options at all (Orks), IIRC.

Chaos (of either Daemon or Marine variety), Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Harlequins IIRC (correct me if the Death Jester has precisiom attacks), Genestealer Cults, or Sisters of Battle. And as mentioned, you still need to actually *see* the character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Only if you can make those buffs work. The benefit of normal CP is that they can buff what you need, wherever you need it. With these, sure, you get more rerolls, but in a smaller area. Is it worth getting to roll again another 16% of rolls (assuming a 3+ to hit)?

Are you up versus Stormravens, Raven Guard, Skyweavers, or pretty much anything that adds hit penalties? Extra hits add up.