Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think the issue with the current rules is that some of the characters protected by them are far larger than is reasonable. The size and silhouette of a CCB is virtually identical to that of an Annihilation Barge, yet one of them can't be targeted if there's a closer model. Daemon Princes and Girlyman are the size of dreadnoughts, and yet are able to hide behind infantry a fifth of their size.

Here's my suggestion - add a size category to each model. Something along these lines:
Size 1 - Normal infantry, Jump Infantry.
Size 2 - Terminators, Bikes, Jetbikes, Destroyers etc. (larger than infantry but smaller than vehicles/MCs)
Size 3 - Dreadnoughts, Primarchs, Monstrous Creatures, standard vehicles
Size 4 - Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, Riptides, some super-heavy vehicles.
Size 5 - Any Super-heavies significantly larger than category 4.
(I don't know how much further you'd need to go. Are there any characters beyond Size 4?)

Anyway, the Character rule would then be ammended with the following: "Units more than 1 size category below the Character may be ignored when determining if any units are closer."

So, for example, if your opponent had a Daemon Prince (Size 3) and the only units closer to him were CSMs (Size 1) you'd be able to ignore them and shoot said daemon prince. Your opponent would have to have units of size category 2 or better (terminators, bikes etc.) to protect him.

Any thoughts?

 Arkaine wrote:
Character buffs or auras aren't so much the problem. They're a tool like having a flying gunship that wrecks your enemy's tanks, or bringing a squad of lascannon devastators to wipe out any big stompy things. But whereas these units can be countered themselves, Characters cannot.

Gone are the duel mechanics. Gone are the squad joining rules that rolled over wounds to them by average toughness. Characters are now protected by their armies all too well and nearly impossible to remove from the table due to enemies choosing what models die first, allowing screening units to stay screening to the last model. Even if you have line of sight on the character with no intervening units, you aren't allow to shoot it if there's a helicopter near you.

We definitely need some sort of anti-character answer. Only armies that have snipers have any sort of exception to this rule and those snipers tend to be very weak. Even the assassins can't handle your average beefcake of a character with its 4++ invulns and command point rerolls. I think to solve the "aura problem" we need more ways to defeat characters. Maybe give Sniper Rifles as a troop choice special weapon. Or more powers like Infernal Gaze that let you psychic target a character. Or bring back that duel mechanics so two characters can face off without needing to clear their intervening blobs first.

Duels were dumb anyway, so eh...

As for Snipers, lets see, Space Marines get troops with Sniper Rifles, Imperial guard can take units with Sniper Rifles, the Eldar can take troops with Sniper Rifles, Tau get Snipers, Necrons...

The problem with handing out sniper rifles like candy is that it's going to hurt some armies a hell of a lot more than others.

It's basically a death sentence to squishy characters like IG, Eldar and DE ones, whilst a super-resilient character like Girlyman (who most people seem to agree is one of the biggest problems) is laughing.

They don't work at all vs Nids, either. That's a big reason I quit using them. Also, marine characters with 2+ armor basically laugh at you.

I'm not suggesting we keep their stats as is either. XD

We need an answer to characters and since we already have the sniper rules... can we at least get a weapon that can do well against them? For all the armies? Flamers answer the hordes, big shooty launchers handle the tanks, even Smite handles invuln spammers, we need something that handles the characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
The problem with handing out sniper rifles like candy is that it's going to hurt some armies a hell of a lot more than others.

It's basically a death sentence to squishy characters like IG, Eldar and DE ones, whilst a super-resilient character like Girlyman (who most people seem to agree is one of the biggest problems) is laughing.

Well judging by the post above you...

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
As for Snipers, lets see, Space Marines get troops with Sniper Rifles, Imperial guard can take units with Sniper Rifles, the Eldar can take troops with Sniper Rifles, Tau get Snipers, Necrons...

...seems like the armies that don't use hyper squishy characters already have them. I can only see it as a benefit to give some sort of sniper targeting weapon to Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, etc so they too can deal with those characters. Plus reworking the sniper rules to apply more damage against characters rather than needing super high strength. Wounding on 2+ regardless of their toughness, chance to deal mortal wounds, whatever helps take them down.

 Arkaine wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
As for Snipers, lets see, Space Marines get troops with Sniper Rifles, Imperial guard can take units with Sniper Rifles, the Eldar can take troops with Sniper Rifles, Tau get Snipers, Necrons...

...seems like the armies that don't use hyper squishy characters already have them. I can only see it as a benefit to give some sort of sniper targeting weapon to Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, etc so they too can deal with those characters. Plus reworking the sniper rules to apply more damage against characters rather than needing super high strength. Wounding on 2+ regardless of their toughness, chance to deal mortal wounds, whatever helps take them down.

Chaos can gain SR if you are willing to take the Forge World Renegades and Heretics, but I have long been an advocate of a Sniper Unit styled like Warp Talons. And give Ork Loota's the option to take, looted sniper rifles.

Buffing SRs could be useful, but have it be a 4+ other wise you are stepping on the Vindicare and Ilic's toes.

On the subject of auras it's basically what is happening in sigmar. You stack your wombo combo auras and then hope you get yours off before your oponant. Not to be the doomsayers or the really bad complainer, but this is that "sigmarification" so many people were yelling about.

One simple solution is so obvious I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned before (perhaps I missed it?). Allow auras to work only for one unit <name> at a time. So for example, if SM Captain has two tacticals, two devastators and two razorbacks within 6" only one of each can re-roll. Should go a long way to remedy unit spam problem. As far as balancing, a lot can fit into that 6" bubble but it's not infinite so we can always estimate just how much a given character is buffing and price it accordingly.

Mossada wrote:
One simple solution is so obvious I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned before (perhaps I missed it?). Allow auras to work only for one unit <name> at a time. So for example, if SM Captain has two tacticals, two devastators and two razorbacks within 6" only one of each can re-roll. Should go a long way to remedy unit spam problem. As far as balancing, a lot can fit into that 6" bubble but it's not infinite so we can always estimate just how much a given character is buffing and price it accordingly.

Fine. I buff one Manticore, one Basilisk, one Colossus, one Leman Russ, one Wyvern, one Baneblade...and Dark Eldar eat gak and die.

A unit cap is best. Maybe a cap of one.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Mossada wrote:
One simple solution is so obvious I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned before (perhaps I missed it?). Allow auras to work only for one unit <name> at a time. So for example, if SM Captain has two tacticals, two devastators and two razorbacks within 6" only one of each can re-roll. Should go a long way to remedy unit spam problem. As far as balancing, a lot can fit into that 6" bubble but it's not infinite so we can always estimate just how much a given character is buffing and price it accordingly.

Fine. I buff one Manticore, one Basilisk, one Colossus, one Leman Russ, one Wyvern, one Baneblade...and Dark Eldar eat gak and die.

That's already better than buffing six Wyverns, right? Obviously it's no substitute for balancing point costs for force multipliers but it does prevent too efficient/undercosted units from taking advantage of buffs en masse and further skewing balance.

Martel732 wrote:
A unit cap is best. Maybe a cap of one.

There's precedent, sure, but it doesn't scale properly.

That's the whole point. It doesn't scale.

 Arkaine wrote:
Well judging by the post above you...

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
As for Snipers, lets see, Space Marines get troops with Sniper Rifles, Imperial guard can take units with Sniper Rifles, the Eldar can take troops with Sniper Rifles, Tau get Snipers, Necrons...

...seems like the armies that don't use hyper squishy characters already have them. I can only see it as a benefit to give some sort of sniper targeting weapon to Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, etc so they too can deal with those characters. Plus reworking the sniper rules to apply more damage against characters rather than needing super high strength. Wounding on 2+ regardless of their toughness, chance to deal mortal wounds, whatever helps take them down.

Sorry, I should have said 'anti-character options', rather than sniper-rifles specifically.

Why not just say half the models in a unit must be within the bubble for the unit to receive the buff?

Mossada wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Mossada wrote:
One simple solution is so obvious I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned before (perhaps I missed it?). Allow auras to work only for one unit <name> at a time. So for example, if SM Captain has two tacticals, two devastators and two razorbacks within 6" only one of each can re-roll. Should go a long way to remedy unit spam problem. As far as balancing, a lot can fit into that 6" bubble but it's not infinite so we can always estimate just how much a given character is buffing and price it accordingly.

Fine. I buff one Manticore, one Basilisk, one Colossus, one Leman Russ, one Wyvern, one Baneblade...and Dark Eldar eat gak and die.

That's already better than buffing six Wyverns, right? Obviously it's no substitute for balancing point costs for force multipliers but it does prevent too efficient/undercosted units from taking advantage of buffs en masse and further skewing balance.

The issue is many said units can be made similar enough, and it penalizes armies with smaller unit selections.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why not just say half the models in a unit must be within the bubble for the unit to receive the buff?

Define within. Is a unit that "clips" the bubble inside it? What about a Baneblade that is just a single tank tread inside? Otherwise, the bubble now favors elite shooting over mobs. How do Napoleonic Sternguard sound?

Within never works since it just allows small elite choices to benefit more than the squads and I'm sure the intention was to have the commander buffing his troops mostly.

 vipoid wrote:
I think the issue with the current rules is that some of the characters protected by them are far larger than is reasonable. The size and silhouette of a CCB is virtually identical to that of an Annihilation Barge, yet one of them can't be targeted if there's a closer model. Daemon Princes and Girlyman are the size of dreadnoughts, and yet are able to hide behind infantry a fifth of their size.

Here's my suggestion - add a size category to each model. Something along these lines:
Size 1 - Normal infantry, Jump Infantry.
Size 2 - Terminators, Bikes, Jetbikes, Destroyers etc. (larger than infantry but smaller than vehicles/MCs)
Size 3 - Dreadnoughts, Primarchs, Monstrous Creatures, standard vehicles
Size 4 - Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, Riptides, some super-heavy vehicles.
Size 5 - Any Super-heavies significantly larger than category 4.
(I don't know how much further you'd need to go. Are there any characters beyond Size 4?)

Anyway, the Character rule would then be ammended with the following: "Units more than 1 size category below the Character may be ignored when determining if any units are closer."

So, for example, if your opponent had a Daemon Prince (Size 3) and the only units closer to him were CSMs (Size 1) you'd be able to ignore them and shoot said daemon prince. Your opponent would have to have units of size category 2 or better (terminators, bikes etc.) to protect him.

Any thoughts?

Size 1 - Gretchin/Brimstone Horrors etc
Size 2 - Scouts/Imperial Guard/Eldar/Tau Infantry etc
Size 3 - Space Marines
Size 4 - Jump Troopers, Terminators, Nobs, Ogryn
Size 5 - Bikers, Cavalry, Sentinels
Size 6 - Dreads, Wraithlords, Meganobz, Landspeeder, Vyper, Piranha
Size 7 - Small Tanks, Rhino, Predator
Size 8 - Medium Tanks, Fire Prism, Hammerhead, Leman Russ
Size 9 - Heavy Tanks, Landraider...
Size 10 - Basic Huge Models - Riptides, Knights

 Talamare wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I think the issue with the current rules is that some of the characters protected by them are far larger than is reasonable. The size and silhouette of a CCB is virtually identical to that of an Annihilation Barge, yet one of them can't be targeted if there's a closer model. Daemon Princes and Girlyman are the size of dreadnoughts, and yet are able to hide behind infantry a fifth of their size.

Here's my suggestion - add a size category to each model. Something along these lines:
Size 1 - Normal infantry, Jump Infantry.
Size 2 - Terminators, Bikes, Jetbikes, Destroyers etc. (larger than infantry but smaller than vehicles/MCs)
Size 3 - Dreadnoughts, Primarchs, Monstrous Creatures, standard vehicles
Size 4 - Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, Riptides, some super-heavy vehicles.
Size 5 - Any Super-heavies significantly larger than category 4.
(I don't know how much further you'd need to go. Are there any characters beyond Size 4?)

Anyway, the Character rule would then be ammended with the following: "Units more than 1 size category below the Character may be ignored when determining if any units are closer."

So, for example, if your opponent had a Daemon Prince (Size 3) and the only units closer to him were CSMs (Size 1) you'd be able to ignore them and shoot said daemon prince. Your opponent would have to have units of size category 2 or better (terminators, bikes etc.) to protect him.

Any thoughts?

Size 1 - Gretchin/Brimstone Horrors etc
Size 2 - Scouts/Imperial Guard/Eldar/Tau Infantry etc
Size 3 - Space Marines
Size 4 - Jump Troopers, Terminators, Nobs, Ogryn
Size 5 - Bikers, Cavalry, Sentinels
Size 6 - Dreads, Wraithlords, Meganobz, Landspeeder, Vyper, Piranha
Size 7 - Small Tanks, Rhino, Predator
Size 8 - Medium Tanks, Fire Prism, Hammerhead, Leman Russ
Size 9 - Heavy Tanks, Landraider...
Size 10 - Basic Huge Models - Riptides, Knights

More abstraction may not be the best way forward.
Best maybe to offload the cognitive work of tracking unit types to the physical battlefield and check LoS with models (like snipers) able to target more distant units with a leadership test or by some other condition, for example so long as there are not enemy models within twelve inches or something like that.

 Talamare wrote:

Size 1 - Gretchin/Brimstone Horrors etc
Size 2 - Scouts/Imperial Guard/Eldar/Tau Infantry etc
Size 3 - Space Marines
Size 4 - Jump Troopers, Terminators, Nobs, Ogryn
Size 5 - Bikers, Cavalry, Sentinels
Size 6 - Dreads, Wraithlords, Meganobz, Landspeeder, Vyper, Piranha
Size 7 - Small Tanks, Rhino, Predator
Size 8 - Medium Tanks, Fire Prism, Hammerhead, Leman Russ
Size 9 - Heavy Tanks, Landraider...
Size 10 - Basic Huge Models - Riptides, Knights

IMO that's too many levels. I don't think there's enough of a difference between Space Marines and Scouts/IG to warrant putting them in a different size category (Primaris Marines might need one though).

Likewise, I would put Jump Troops in the same category as Space Marines because I don't think their size is that much different (especially compared to stuff like Nobz and Terminators).

I'm also a bit puzzled about some of your choices. Do you really think meganobz need to be two whole size categories above Terminators and Ogryns? Putting them on the same level as Dreadnoughts seems wrong. Classing Predators as 'small' and Leman Russ as 'Medium' also seems strange - are the Leman Russ that much bigger? I'd class Predators and Rhinos as medium and use thr small category for Raiders, Venoms, Piranhas and the like.

 vipoid wrote:


What if, instead of being an aura, these abilities instead allowed you to select a single unit at the beginning of the game to apply the buff to. That unit (along with the HQ) gains that buff for the duration of the game.

So, to take the example of an Autarch, instead of giving a reroll 1s buff to all units within 6" you'd instead choose a unit at the beginning of the game (let's say some Dark Reapers). Those Dark Reapers would then reroll 1s for the remainder of the game, regardless of distance to the Autarch or whether he's even still alive.

We imperial guard now.
Wait, is actually worse because needs even less skill than the average 40k game. With the IG before 8th and with the characters in most armies in 8th you need """"clever"""" positioning


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
And give Ork Loota's the option to take, looted sniper rifles.

Is this serious or I am missing the sarcasm?

 vipoid wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Size 1 - Gretchin/Brimstone Horrors etc
Size 2 - Scouts/Imperial Guard/Eldar/Tau Infantry etc
Size 3 - Space Marines
Size 4 - Jump Troopers, Terminators, Nobs, Ogryn
Size 5 - Bikers, Cavalry, Sentinels
Size 6 - Dreads, Wraithlords, Meganobz, Landspeeder, Vyper, Piranha
Size 7 - Small Tanks, Rhino, Predator
Size 8 - Medium Tanks, Fire Prism, Hammerhead, Leman Russ
Size 9 - Heavy Tanks, Landraider...
Size 10 - Basic Huge Models - Riptides, Knights

IMO that's too many levels. I don't think there's enough of a difference between Space Marines and Scouts/IG to warrant putting them in a different size category (Primaris Marines might need one though).

Likewise, I would put Jump Troops in the same category as Space Marines because I don't think their size is that much different (especially compared to stuff like Nobz and Terminators).

I'm also a bit puzzled about some of your choices. Do you really think meganobz need to be two whole size categories above Terminators and Ogryns? Putting them on the same level as Dreadnoughts seems wrong. Classing Predators as 'small' and Leman Russ as 'Medium' also seems strange - are the Leman Russ that much bigger? I'd class Predators and Rhinos as medium and use thr small category for Raiders, Venoms, Piranhas and the like.

I think a simple "Size" modifier would be Unmodified Strength + Unmodified Toughness. No need for explicit sizemods that way. When in doubt, KISS.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

I think a simple "Size" modifier would be Unmodified Strength + Unmodified Toughness. No need for explicit sizemods that way. When in doubt, KISS.

Yes, that's a much better idea.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

We imperial guard now.
Wait, is actually worse because needs even less skill than the average 40k game. With the IG before 8th and with the characters in most armies in 8th you need """"clever"""" positioning

Er . . . what?

I honestly have no clue what you're trying to say here.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
On the subject of auras it's basically what is happening in sigmar. You stack your wombo combo auras and then hope you get yours off before your oponant. Not to be the doomsayers or the really bad complainer, but this is that "sigmarification" so many people were yelling about.

Auras will never be able to escape the WOMBO effect.

Multipliers and wombo combos aren't necessarily bad. They're a staple of card games, including the Warhammer 40k card game. They suck when you cast +2 strength to all units and only have one unit yet are amazing when you buff ten of them. You just have to ensure there are ways to break the combo that are readily available to most factions. With how many Stratagems the Space Marine codex was spammed with, the emphasis should be on how the game is being played rather than what combo you brought. Hopefully we'll see these COMBO BREAKERS!!! at some point.

 Arkaine wrote:
Multipliers and wombo combos aren't necessarily bad. They're a staple of card games, including the Warhammer 40k card game. They suck when you cast +2 strength to all units and only have one unit yet are amazing when you buff ten of them. You just have to ensure there are ways to break the combo that are readily available to most factions. With how many Stratagems the Space Marine codex was spammed with, the emphasis should be on how the game is being played rather than what combo you brought. Hopefully we'll see these COMBO BREAKERS!!! at some point.

The majority of SM stratagems are tied into specific units or combinations of units, many of them being copypastes/ports of Formation bonuses or Squadron benefits from 7e. Most have very easy requirements, like Kill Shot being "did you take 3 Predators? Congrats, a strategist is you."

Things like Cluster Mines being "a few mortal wounds if Scout Bikes survive melee" are not strategic, when the alternative could be "Scouts may lay some mine tokens down. Any unit without the <Fly> Keyword that moves within 1" of a Cluster Mine token takes D3 Mortal Wounds", or something that actually does more to impact decision-making.

True enough but they're going slow and simple without all that rules bloat this time around (yet). Too many changes at once is what broke the past editions. I'll wait for them to get settled into the 8th edition testing with these very mundane stratagems before adding something more complex and metagame worthy further down the line (like in 9th edition).

jeff white wrote:More abstraction may not be the best way forward.
Best maybe to offload the cognitive work of tracking unit types to the physical battlefield and check LoS with models (like snipers) able to target more distant units with a leadership test or by some other condition, for example so long as there are not enemy models within twelve inches or something like that.

vipoid wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Size 1 - Gretchin/Brimstone Horrors etc
Size 2 - Scouts/Imperial Guard/Eldar/Tau Infantry etc
Size 3 - Space Marines
Size 4 - Jump Troopers, Terminators, Nobs, Ogryn
Size 5 - Bikers, Cavalry, Sentinels
Size 6 - Dreads, Wraithlords, Meganobz, Landspeeder, Vyper, Piranha
Size 7 - Small Tanks, Rhino, Predator
Size 8 - Medium Tanks, Fire Prism, Hammerhead, Leman Russ
Size 9 - Heavy Tanks, Landraider...
Size 10 - Basic Huge Models - Riptides, Knights

IMO that's too many levels. I don't think there's enough of a difference between Space Marines and Scouts/IG to warrant putting them in a different size category (Primaris Marines might need one though).

Likewise, I would put Jump Troops in the same category as Space Marines because I don't think their size is that much different (especially compared to stuff like Nobz and Terminators).

I'm also a bit puzzled about some of your choices. Do you really think meganobz need to be two whole size categories above Terminators and Ogryns? Putting them on the same level as Dreadnoughts seems wrong. Classing Predators as 'small' and Leman Russ as 'Medium' also seems strange - are the Leman Russ that much bigger? I'd class Predators and Rhinos as medium and use thr small category for Raiders, Venoms, Piranhas and the like.

Oh, I was just having fun with it
Wasn't really pitching any concrete ideas.
Space Marines are pretty renowned for being significantly larger than the average Human of the Imperial Guard. I think it would be a disservice to the Brand if that wasn't represented by being a size category larger.
Same applies to Terminator, Nobz, and Ogryns being significantly larger and more intimidating than Space Marines.
As far as Meganobz are concerned, I probably just got the name wrong. I meant their Dreadnought/Wraithlord equivalent.
I feel there might be enough size difference between the Vyper, Predator, and Leman Russ. Even in previous edition there was a pretty significant Armor Value difference between these 3.
Altho, I could see a case being made that Dreadnought equivalent be a size bigger than Landspeeder equivalents. However, I figured then we couldn't fit Land Raiders snugly at 9.

As a closing reminder, I was just having fun with it. Not really taking it serious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
like Kill Shot being "did you take 3 Predators? Congrats, a strategist is you."

Sounds an awful lot like Formations

 Talamare wrote:

Oh, I was just having fun with it
Wasn't really pitching any concrete ideas.
Space Marines are pretty renowned for being significantly larger than the average Human of the Imperial Guard. I think it would be a disservice to the Brand if that wasn't represented by being a size category larger.
Same applies to Terminator, Nobz, and Ogryns being significantly larger and more intimidating than Space Marines.
As far as Meganobz are concerned, I probably just got the name wrong. I meant their Dreadnought/Wraithlord equivalent.
I feel there might be enough size difference between the Vyper, Predator, and Leman Russ. Even in previous edition there was a pretty significant Armor Value difference between these 3.
Altho, I could see a case being made that Dreadnought equivalent be a size bigger than Landspeeder equivalents. However, I figured then we couldn't fit Land Raiders snugly at 9.

As a closing reminder, I was just having fun with it. Not really taking it serious.

That's fine, I just thought I'd explain why I'd favour fewer size categories and bunch units together a bit more.

In any case, I think MagicJuggler's idea of using a model's unmodified strength/toughness is better than mine anyway.

I think the "model size" idea is pretty clever, but it also feels like a lot of effort to shoot Guilliman.

Some of the size categories proposed also would seem to penalize characters for taking terminator armor, which Im not sure I like.

The S+T idea is elegant, but i might suggest the requirement for picking out a target be greater than a difference of 1. Like, a Nurgle lord would be unobscured by normal csm, for example, which doesnt feel right. What it seems you're looking for is more like, you dont want a Hive Tyrant to be able to hide behind Gaunts. (For the record I dont know how many wounds a Hive Tyrant has, but you get my drift.)