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 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Maybe I missed something, but the Black Legion trait is pure trash in my point of view. Which are the possible applications? An assault plasmagun wont be able to duplicate the shots, and you still get the-1 to hit

Your playing wrong if your using it when your already in range. An assault 1 shot is better then no shot which is the bonus of the trait, if I am out of range after a normal 6" move I can at least advance into range and still be effective, it's also nothing to scoff at in objective games where you will advance often just to get onto one, this again lets you do something.

I can't think of too many units that have rapid fire weapons that i would want footslogging.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/04/legion-focus-black-legion-aug4gw-homepage-post-2/

Black Legion.

Abaddon got a nice buff now that he gives +2CP. Otherwise everything else looks nice.

Presiance on a unit with an icon of excess in range of a BL warlord for that 3+ Death to the false emperor.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Maybe I missed something, but the Black Legion trait is pure trash in my point of view. Which are the possible applications? An assault plasmagun wont be able to duplicate the shots, and you still get the-1 to hit

Your playing wrong if your using it when your already in range. An assault 1 shot is better then no shot which is the bonus of the trait, if I am out of range after a normal 6" move I can at least advance into range and still be effective, it's also nothing to scoff at in objective games where you will advance often just to get onto one, this again lets you do something.

The other use is when advancing to set up assaults or go for o jectives, you still have some firepower rather than giving it up entirely.

The Black Legion stuff seems really solid across the board - although perhaps wasted on a few too many of the units (i.e. 5-man squads of any type are wasted with bonus leadership).

What's weird about it is it all seems to point you towards a foot slogging marine army, which i can't see working that well.

Black Legion trait looks okey to me, not awesome, but certainly not bad. Assault 24" Non-overcharged plasma gun is nice, especially if the other option is that you cant make it to firing range at all. Likewise with offensive melee armies you can keep falling backwards and still keep on shooting somewhat effectively.

Other interesting point about the article is this paragraph:
"It’s worth noting that with the new Chaos Space Marines codex, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Berzerkers and Rubric Marines are available to a much wider range of Chaos Legions. The Black Legion has always been renowned for bringing together Chaos Space Marines from far and wide in its warbands, and any of the “cult marines” make for a strong choice in the army. Rubric Marines are a particularly potent pick, able to fire their armour-piercing inferno boltguns on the move thanks to Black Crusaders."
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/04/legion-focus-black-legion-aug4gw-homepage-post-2/

I think they are hinting that Cult troops won't be <Thousands Sons>, <World Eaters>, <Emperors Children>, <Death Guard> any more respectively?
This would be awesome change. I would consider adding Night Lords Noise Marines, although a bit different looking, Night Lords blasting terrorizing sounds and voices, while still remaining midnight clad in NL colorings and normal armors also.

EDIT: Okey I had read wrong and even current index allows <Legion> khorne berserkers, noise marines etc.

It'll be like the indexes which had plague marines as troops under the Death Guard army, or an option as Elites for normal CSM forces etc.

So it'll be more akin to the old days where a CSM army could have various types and bring daemons along as well, etc.

Ghorgul wrote:

I think they are hinting that Cult troops won't be <Thousands Sons>, <World Eaters>, <Emperors Children>, <Death Guard> any more respectively?
This would be awesome change. I would consider adding Night Lords Noise Marines, although a bit different looking, Night Lords blasting terrorizing sounds and voices, while still remaining midnight clad in NL colorings and normal armors also.

They never have been and already aren't in the index; you can take cult troops in any legion, except for the ones who are locked to specific god keywords.

Hmmm... Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers infiltrating with -1 to hit on shooting, when they are further than 12 inch away.
That could be potentially awesome!

 Rydria wrote:
Presiance on a unit with an icon of excess in range of a BL warlord for that 3+ Death to the false emperor.

Nope, the wording on both says it triggers on a 5+ rather then a 6+ meaning that they don't stick. 4+ is the max. Whats great however is that you can stack it with MoK now so you have +1 attack to start after a charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Astmeister wrote:
Hmmm... Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers infiltrating with -1 to hit on shooting, when they are further than 12 inch away.
That could be potentially awesome!

Those two things don't really work together though lol. You ideally will always have them inside 12" but thats still pretty great.

I'm wondering if they bumped BL and WB further up the order because of the hate they've been getting from the leaks? Maybe GW wants us to look at them for longer so they can prepare their day 1 DLC FAQ to adjust the rules that aren't working right. We pretty much know what the AL trait and stratagem are going to be and it's pretty much been agreed that the RG who share the same are top tier of the chapter tactics.

So Black Crusaders doesn't work as GW think it works. It's clear they think they're giving BL Rapid Fire weapon they can shoot after advancing, but they're not. They mention Rapid Fire 2 because they think that's how bolters and plasmaguns work, but they don't - they're Rapid Fire 1. It's pretty obvious that they have different individuals or teams working on different parts of the rules and that none of them really know how their game works. You can see this in the guys that chair their live streams, they don't know the rules or how the game works either. By just saying that Rapid Fire weapons operate as Assault with that trait it negates the advantage of the Rapid Fire weapon the double shots at half range. To get those extra shots you have to DOUBLE the Rapid Fire number. You can't just replace the Rapid Fire rule with the Assault rule. The way the article is worded it suggests CSM's advancing are gonna be laying down a hail of fire, but they're not. It should just say that units with the rule can fire their Rapid Fire weapons even if they advanced. Like the rules are worded for advancing and charging, or the rules for falling back and firing like UM get. GW clearly has a problem with the delivery of rules and gameplay from their heads and onto the table.

Another issue that's now raised is what the hell is the point of an Icon of Excess now in BL armies? Do we just ignore this now (kind of weird that only one icon gets to be ignored) or does it mean the icon is getting changed, thus depriving EC of one of their better means of boosting their CC capability? Seems pretty poor in this case. It's not a very strong warlord trait, maybe a +1 to hit in melee bubble would have been better? Ripping a rule straight from another chaos source to mitigate your power fists never getting exploding attacks is pretty crappy. It's one thing copying the rules from loyalists where appropriate, but ripping them straight from other sources in your own codex and invalidating that thing in the process is bad. Really bad.

I am not seeing this BL trait being good.

First, It only comes into effect if you advance, which prevents you from charging.

Second, it only works on rapid fire weapons so it is useless if you were already taking heavy weapons or assault weapons instead.

Both these points take away options and pigeonhole you.

You still suffer the -1 to hit for advancing, making overcharging plasma punishing.

+1 LD is a lot more useful for CSM than for Ultramarines, at least.

Honestly, was anyone going to use that icon anyways? Or any of them except khorne? Those are all fairly situational bonuses even for the minor 10 point price tag. You really wanna drop 50-100 points on an upgrade that literally does nothing against half the armies in the game?

Still, considering the warlord trait is an aura and you can't cram that many models in range, it's not really that much more useless for BL compared to everyone else.

As for the advancing and shoot ability, I see some minor uses but nothing amazing. It really does work best for cult units, noise marines running barebones as a melee troop or mixed with spare bodies can advance and fire everything, plague marines with double blight launchers can get some firepower from the rest of the squad, rubrics appreciate it and are one of the few units who can really benefit from the LD bonus.

Do Daemon Princes not benefit from legion tactics? I think they don't have infantry keyword so they don't? Sad.

Also if you take your lord on a Juggernaut or Steed or whatever they aren't infantry anymore I think.

Possibly an oversight?

Yeah I think including bikers but not cavalry was an oversight. Demon princes I'm less sure of.

 combatcotton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

... honestly, I kinda like what they did with the obliterator.

The effect is unique, yes. It appears somewhat chaotic, yes. Why it isn't d3 shots on top of it, who knows.
I just hate it, because obliterators are not shooting random demonic vomit but deliberately chosen weapons befitting the intended victim. And why such a huge blobb of metal still runs at T4 is a mystery.

+1. I have no idea why they went from guys who picked the right tool for the job, to that mess. A simple unique version of a missile launcher's frag vs. krak choices would have been plenty to retain the idea of specialists choosing their weapons, if the idea was to make it so you didn't need to choose from like a dozen options.

To me, random stats doesn't suggest effectiveness.

SilverAlien wrote:
Honestly, was anyone going to use that icon anyways? Or any of them except khorne? Those are all fairly situational bonuses even for the minor 10 point price tag. You really wanna drop 50-100 points on an upgrade that literally does nothing against half the armies in the game?

Still, considering the warlord trait is an aura and you can't cram that many models in range, it's not really that much more useless for BL compared to everyone else.

As for the advancing and shoot ability, I see some minor uses but nothing amazing. It really does work best for cult units, noise marines running barebones as a melee troop or mixed with spare bodies can advance and fire everything, plague marines with double blight launchers can get some firepower from the rest of the squad, rubrics appreciate it and are one of the few units who can really benefit from the LD bonus.

Stacked horizontal firing lines with just a model or two inside the bubble would mean you could get quite a lot of squads involved with that bubble.

The trait really should have been advance and still shoot (with stacked penalties, so -2 to hit for heavy weapons). Even better would have been advance and shoot, or advance and charge to show their tactical flexibility depending upon the situation. Heck, it could have been once per game for each, as most armies in an objective game are going to have to move towards each other most of the time anyway, you won't really have a need to use it more than once each, especially if you are using a sort of horde get up that it is being implied BL should use.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 combatcotton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

... honestly, I kinda like what they did with the obliterator.

The effect is unique, yes. It appears somewhat chaotic, yes. Why it isn't d3 shots on top of it, who knows.
I just hate it, because obliterators are not shooting random demonic vomit but deliberately chosen weapons befitting the intended victim. And why such a huge blobb of metal still runs at T4 is a mystery.

+1. I have no idea why they went from guys who picked the right tool for the job, to that mess. A simple unique version of a missile launcher's frag vs. krak choices would have been plenty to retain the idea of specialists choosing their weapons, if the idea was to make it so you didn't need to choose from like a dozen options.

To me, random stats doesn't suggest effectiveness.

I'd probably go for three, an anti infantry, anti armour and hedge your bets option. That still represents a simplification from the huge long list they had, gives them broadly the same utility and doesn't break anything I can think.

That said, D3 isn't the spikiest range of random, so I'm not really bothered about the raw output so much as the retention of unnecessary dice rolls and the odd occasion where the dice roll will work against the specific circumstances to screw you over which the unit doesn't really need (it's not an Ork unit, nor a cheap disposable one now you can't buy them in singles.)

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 combatcotton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

... honestly, I kinda like what they did with the obliterator.

The effect is unique, yes. It appears somewhat chaotic, yes. Why it isn't d3 shots on top of it, who knows.
I just hate it, because obliterators are not shooting random demonic vomit but deliberately chosen weapons befitting the intended victim. And why such a huge blobb of metal still runs at T4 is a mystery.

+1. I have no idea why they went from guys who picked the right tool for the job, to that mess. A simple unique version of a missile launcher's frag vs. krak choices would have been plenty to retain the idea of specialists choosing their weapons, if the idea was to make it so you didn't need to choose from like a dozen options.

To me, random stats doesn't suggest effectiveness.

I've posted this before, but the ability to pick weapons for Obliterators was overrated, simply because you only ever used 3 or 4 of the profiles because of how game mechanics worked. So at most with each weapon you'd get 2-3 shots. Nah not good.

Now, the profile for the Fleshmetal Gun isn't too bad at its worst, but the Obliterator needs 4 shots to even be worth it.

3 or 4 is more than lets say ehm.... ONE?

youtubers like winter SEO posted a review of the SM codex the day of the preorder, is there a possibility we can get some info tomorrow morning as well?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I noticed that you were upset cs the WE and AL stratagems are the same as the SM ones, but the BL and Khorne ones are a copy as well. Which is not such a shame imho considering that 24 stratagems are a lot.

Do codex marines have the shot twice strategem ? Or is that one unique ?

Everything leaked on WarhammerTV today:

Strategems leaked:
1CP - Character does d3 mortal wounds with a bolter weapon
1CP - Give a unit a Mark of Chaos
1CP - Chaos Boon, 2 is Spawn, 12 is Daemon Prince, 7 choose a bonus, 4 is +3" to move characteristic, 9 +1 to all saves
1CP - Tzeentch can do another power
1CP - Choose a different psychic power
1CP - +1 to wound for a unit of infantry, bikers (not renegade units)
1CP - A Daemon Engine can re-roll to hit and wound for a phase
2CP - A unit of cultists on the board can re-deploy via deep strike within 6" of a board edge
1CP - Linebreaker Bombardment
1CP - Killshot (noice)
1CP - Flakk missile
~CP - A Helbrute can fire twice if it doesn’t move
1CP/3CP - extra Artifacts
1CP - Heretic vehicle ignores penelties for assault/heavy weapons
Alpha Legion get the RavenGuard strategem

Artifacts:
Axe of Blind Fury, Murder sword and Black Mace are back + a load more artifacts.

Psychic Powers:
DeathHex - WC 8, 12" an enemy unit can't take invul saves.
~ - roll d6, if higher than a models toughness they take d3 mortal wounds

Warlord Traits:
Alpha Legion WLT is, when your Warlord dies another character becomes your Warlord and gains a new Warlord trait. No StW when you kill the warlord the first time.

Renegades Legion trait is advance and charge.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Hot dang, that Black Legion Trait just makes me want to run a two Spearhead detachments with a crap ton of 4x Plasma (Combi-Plasma on Champion if they can) in Rhinos and spam Plasma shots at everything. Take a couple squads of bog standard Chaos Marines for holding objectives and just go to town.

I don't play Chaos, but depending on how the Black Legion look I may get rid of my Tallarn for them.

PM me if you do! I need moooare Tallarns!

Death hex is awesome. 8 is pricey, but jaysus. TAKE THAT GIRLYMAN!!

Alpha legion WLT is fluffy but kinda meh. Kinda sad we aren't seeing a way to upgrade characters like the chapter master stratagem. That's one that would've helped a lot for anyone not playing black legion.