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I would buy an unhealthy amount of M2O models. On fact I considered mailing them about M2O Necro just this week, but I didn't know whether to use FB or the MO email address or write WD. Especially Eshers. But especially Cawdor! /Sideshow Bob
The OG gangs done in the vein of the original models but in convertable plastic and slightly better proportions would leave me ecstatic beyond words.
Looking for a Skaven Doomwheel banner to repair my Nurgle knights.
totalfailure wrote: Titanicus was supposed to be all but done. The rules are pretty much done...but they were convinced all resin models, hideously expensive, and available only from Forge World was going to be a success. If that was the product that was going to be released, it was doomed from day 1, like Aeronautica Imperialis....poor decision making...
Shadow War was nothing. Probably a couple weeks worth of writing to adapt the rules. The terrain was not designed for it; it was coming out anyway, with or without Armageddon. Old models included in game. The whole thing was basically a starter box for Mechanicus terrain. How much support has it gotten? If it were not for internet crying over the rulebook, it would have been dead and gone already. Oh wait, it is dead and gone already...zero support other than the separate rulebook.
Apart from some additional articles in WD, and the fact that it's only really been around a few months... what's the usual lead-in time for any kind of expansion for a boxed game? How quickly were the Talisman expansions coming out from Fantasy Flight? Every few weeks? Hah.
I don't understand the cynicism. Shadow War was a really nice little boxed game. Great terrain, a bunch of figures that are getting a bit long in the tooth, a set of updated Necromunda rules to test the waters for an inevitable (and effectively confirmed) Necromunda re-release/redesign for a net discount on the individual terrain sets that followed...? I'm not going to sniff at that. NB: I didn't buy it as I'm not interested if it isn't actual Necromunda, but I also don't understand why anyone would want to throw shade at it. It's a complete, self-contained rule set in a book/box that arguably needs no support at all.
Titanicus plans changed due to the feedback they were getting from fans.
Let me say that again:
Titanicus plans changed due to the feedback they were getting from fans.
Release didn't shift that much as far as I'm aware, though the composition of the release did (plastics being expanded and so on).
But how listening to feedback counts as "bungling" is utterly beyond me.
Apart from some additional articles in WD, and the fact that it's only really been around a few months... what's the usual lead-in time for any kind of expansion for a boxed game?
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That really depends on what the company expects from it.
When Necromunda was released, for example, it had massive support for some time in White Dwarf, with showcases, modeling articles, battle reports, scenarios, etc, followed by an ongoing series of content in the dedicated Necromunda magazine that Specialist Games started up. All geared towards keeping interest up and driving sales.
The thing is, none of that would have been useful for Shadow Wars given how quickly it sold out. There's no point putting effort into support material to keep up interest if you have no intention of releasing anything beyond the initial splash-release box set.
Yeah. The old old GW (as opposed to the pre-Rountree version) broadly supported the big two/three (depending on where in its life cycle Epic was) and then roughly once a year a what we would now call Specialist game would get a new incarnation, heavy support in the Dwarf and at least one expansion plus boxes and blisters of new models over the following year or so, only for the cycle to begin again with the next game once it was all done.
Nu-GW tends to just gak out the game and be done. This isn't a criticism of those games necessarily, but it's not the same approach and there's no recent historic reason to expect anything beyond an initial release of its from GW proper.
If this comes under the auspices of the new Specialist division, there may be more cause for optimism, but if this is SW: Necromunda then it could very likely be another one shot.
TBF, I'm not overly impressed with the way BB has limped and lurched its way out since the initial release, with highly variable model quality and erratic availability, so I'm not sure Necromunda getting released under either authority is a good thing right now, maybe video game news could actually be for the best in the long term?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
totalfailure wrote: Titanicus was supposed to be all but done. The rules are pretty much done...but they were convinced all resin models, hideously expensive, and available only from Forge World was going to be a success. If that was the product that was going to be released, it was doomed from day 1, like Aeronautica Imperialis....poor decision making...
Shadow War was nothing. Probably a couple weeks worth of writing to adapt the rules. The terrain was not designed for it; it was coming out anyway, with or without Armageddon. Old models included in game. The whole thing was basically a starter box for Mechanicus terrain. How much support has it gotten? If it were not for internet crying over the rulebook, it would have been dead and gone already. Oh wait, it is dead and gone already...zero support other than the separate rulebook.
Apart from some additional articles in WD, and the fact that it's only really been around a few months... what's the usual lead-in time for any kind of expansion for a boxed game? How quickly were the Talisman expansions coming out from Fantasy Flight? Every few weeks? Hah.
I don't understand the cynicism. Shadow War was a really nice little boxed game. Great terrain, a bunch of figures that are getting a bit long in the tooth, a set of updated Necromunda rules to test the waters for an inevitable (and effectively confirmed) Necromunda re-release/redesign for a net discount on the individual terrain sets that followed...? I'm not going to sniff at that. NB: I didn't buy it as I'm not interested if it isn't actual Necromunda, but I also don't understand why anyone would want to throw shade at it. It's a complete, self-contained rule set in a book/box that arguably needs no support at all.
Titanicus plans changed due to the feedback they were getting from fans.
Let me say that again:
Titanicus plans changed due to the feedback they were getting from fans.
Release didn't shift that much as far as I'm aware, though the composition of the release did (plastics being expanded and so on).
But how listening to feedback counts as "bungling" is utterly beyond me.
They were planning on a bad idea for Titanicus. It should have been painfully obvious it was a bad idea to have the Titans in resin with such limited availability. It should not have taken community feedback to change their mind. Your average houseplant should have been able to foretell that plan was going to be a disaster, re: Aeronautica Imperialis. Not every release needs to appeal to every last GW customer. But the opinions of Forge World fanboys aside, it was apparent the game would be super super niche going that route. And I think there is more support out there for Titanicus/Epic than something so limiting.
And Armageddon is what it is - a bargain basement as little effort as possible release to show off the Mechanicus terrain. Some people liked it. Good for them. That doesn't mean a Necromunda box is coming out of nowhere in the next few weeks, based on an unlabeled rumor picture of part of one weapon, and a comment in White Dwarf that could much more easily have been about an already known video game.
Frankly, I don't get all the love for Necromunda anyway. The setting and background are good. The rules 2E/Necromunda rules are weak at best. And that is not a fault with just that game. Here it is, 30 years after Rogue Trader, and GW is still stuck on Igo/Hugo game systems that were getting obsolete in the 80s.
adamsouza wrote: I want Necromunda, but I want Necromunda with an updated rules set and not just a reprint of the same 20 year old rules.
You're probably better off finding a different game that you can play with Necromunda models, then, because this is unlikely to have significantly different rules. At most, I would expect to see sustained fire dice removed (as they were in the Living Ruleset version) and possibly templates removed ala current 40K. And a drastic reduction in allowable gear to match whatever model range they wind up releasing to go with it.
adamsouza wrote: I want Necromunda, but I want Necromunda with an updated rules set and not just a reprint of the same 20 year old rules.
You're probably better off finding a different game that you can play with Necromunda models, then, because this is unlikely to have significantly different rules. At most, I would expect to see sustained fire dice removed (as they were in the Living Ruleset version) and possibly templates removed ala current 40K. And a drastic reduction in allowable gear to match whatever model range they wind up releasing to go with it.
That would be an updated rule set...
Necromunda used 2E's close combat rules. I'd like that updated to an AOS/8E to hit number.
Necromunda used 2E's shooting rules. I'd like that updated to an AOS/8E to hit number.
Necromunda used 2E's cover rules. I'd like that updated to an 8E armor save improvement, instead of a to hit modifier.
Necromunda used 2E's sustained fire and templates rules. I'd like that updated to an 8E, where those don't exist.
Essentially, I'd like the core combat mechanics to be closer to 8E than 2E. It would make it much easier to teach new people how to play.
adamsouza wrote: I want Necromunda, but I want Necromunda with an updated rules set and not just a reprint of the same 20 year old rules.
You're probably better off finding a different game that you can play with Necromunda models, then, because this is unlikely to have significantly different rules. At most, I would expect to see sustained fire dice removed (as they were in the Living Ruleset version) and possibly templates removed ala current 40K. And a drastic reduction in allowable gear to match whatever model range they wind up releasing to go with it.
Then there is the question of whether GW is capable of writing a decent upgraded rule set for Necromunda (beyond the stuff adamsouza posted). I'm betting no...
Essentially, I'd like the core combat mechanics to be closer to 8E than 2E. It would make it much easier to teach new people how to play.
Yes, and my point was that this is unlikely. Any changes are likely to be minimal, and only what is required based on current material availability and business directions.
From what was mentioned at Warhammer Fest, Shadow War Armageddon is a product of the main design studio, not Specialist Games. Any future Necromunda edition will not necessarily use the old rules or have anything to do with SWA. You might as well read up on Confrontation for hints on the direction of the game. Not that they were admitting to even having a production schedule after Adeptus Titanicus, but Battlefleet Gothic seemed the most likely game to come next. I'm not expecting Necromunda 3rd edtion before 2020.
Definitely. On the other hand, I have my doubts that an open campaign system like Necromunda's could ever be balanced enough to make it appear fair..
There was, of course, a bit of an equaliser in that whatever absurd combo you managed to roll, or equipment you managed to score, could be lost through a single bad roll.
I remember a campaign where one of my regular opponents rolled a one -in-a-million sniper rifle with his Inventor leader. Gave it to a ganger with a bunch of kickass shooty skills... And then in the next game I captured that ganger. There was swearing.
For all its flaws, Necromunda was an awful lot if fun of you didn't take it too seriously.
As much as I love Necromunda, I'm rather cautious about this announcement. I don't mind if it's about a video game, as this in turn may turn on nostalgia for tabletop version and more people will just download one of three available rulesets.
I don't mind new models, but I don't crave them, as converting readily available 40K models is large part of my personal fun with Necromunda nowadays. Though I understand people, who eagerly await new model range - I would probably grab one or two new gangs myself. But given that old Necromunda had about 200 unique sculpts and six main gangs I highly doubt, that we will get anything near that if and when GW decides to hit on this.
But what I fear mostly is what adamsouza wants comes true - that an "updated" ruleset that will reintroduce "modernised" Necromunda in a twisted and/or stripped down form, that will generate entirely different tabletop experience. Even SWA feels different (and I don't mean campaign mode and kill teams power level - Genestealer Cults is very close to a proper gang but still plays differently under SWA rulebook). I'm in the middle of an Original Necromunda campaign right now (not even 2.0 or Living Ruleset) and this is IMHO still one of the best skirmish rulesets out there and "I go, you go" isn't realy any drawback at all with enough terrain to utilize Hide rule properly.
Definitely. On the other hand, I have my doubts that an open campaign system like Necromunda's could ever be balanced enough to make it appear fair..
There was, of course, a bit of an equaliser in that whatever absurd combo you managed to roll, or equipment you managed to score, could be lost through a single bad roll.
I remember a campaign where one of my regular opponents rolled a one -in-a-million sniper rifle with his Inventor leader. Gave it to a ganger with a bunch of kickass shooty skills... And then in the next game I captured that ganger. There was swearing.
For all its flaws, Necromunda was an awful lot if fun of you didn't take it too seriously.
Fully agreed. Necromunda is my favorite GW game and there are definitely balancing mechanisms in place. Pretty clever ones, too, like favoring the underdog when scenarios are chosen couple with scenarios where a superior gang can't bring its full numbers to bear, allowing underdogs to win and catch up.
It's raw in places, but has a fair number of elegant rules. And, as you say, this is a GW game where I felt it was genuinely constructed to facilitate fun (unlike more recent efforts) through rules interactions and some randomness to the point where balance could take the backseat without detriment to the game. That's something I don't see anymore in modern GW games.
insaniak wrote: And a drastic reduction in allowable gear to match whatever model range they wind up releasing to go with it.
That would rip the heart and soul out of Necromunda.
But save people from some pretty gakky WAAC gear loadout options that I can't remember were, but easily bought.
It would certainly benefit the people still willing to play with the carcass of Necromunda.
insaniak wrote: It was certainly a game that would have benefited from some balancing.
Definitely. On the other hand, I have my doubts that an open campaign system like Necromunda's could ever be balanced enough to make it appear fair.
But there were definitely things that could have been tweaked for a better experience.
It's perfectly possible, You just need better scenarios, advancement and equipment balancing.
You'll never be able to account for the player actions. If a player is good or lucky in their first games, they'll gain a lasting advantage. That's the nature of campaign play. You have to reward players for winning or else there is no point in playing, and you have to allow the other players to be able to catch up or else there is no point in playing. It's hard to reconcile these factors and, I would argue, makes game design more concerned with managing the power gap that will inevitably form rather than trying to establish universal balance.
When it comes to balance, I would hesitate to use the word "perfect".
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
The best equaliser for Necromunda was the players. One gang getting a runaway lead? team up against them. Or have the other gangs play a load of Scavengers scenarios against each other over the course of an afternoon.
Not perfect. The words were balanced enough to appear fair. That's perfectly possible.
You make the scenarios more fair and you make the success and failure spirals much less severe.
You get absolute demi gods way too easily and the max power odds way too good with some of the stupid combinations.
Necromunda is a very fun game, if people play within reasonable limits. It just needs those reasonable limits codifying in the rules so it's not up to each individual players interpretation where fair is.
Vorian wrote: Not perfect. The words were balanced enough to appear fair. That's perfectly possible.
You make the scenarios more fair and you make the success and failure spirals much less severe.
You get absolute demi gods way too easily and the max power odds way too good with some of the stupid combinations.
Necromunda is a very fun game, if people play within reasonable limits. It just needs those reasonable limits codifying in the rules so it's not up to each individual players interpretation where fair is.
My mistake. I misread you. I don't disagree with any of this.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
I would be happy enough if they based it on Shadow War Armageddon. It removed the most obviously broken skills (such as Marksman) and added a to-hit penalty for shooting at running opponents which is actually a pretty huge change, especially for close combat gangs which spend most of the game running and were always much harder to play. The only major change I could see would be to make Pinning less penalizing. Otherwise I think the rules work great as they are.
Vorian wrote: It's perfectly possible, You just need better scenarios, advancement and equipment balancing.
I've made one part of the above quote very obvious, as it's the key point for any Necromunda redo.
Shadow War made it very apparent very quickly that the stock standard Necromunda scenarios are ancient unwieldy things that need complete rewriting. And there needs to be more of them. Yes, I love The Scavengers because it's a fun mission that requires players to do something other than line up and shoot one another, but you can't just play that one scenario over and over again.
For a new Necromunda to work, as much as the game would benefit from changes to the Advance table (some of the SW ideas for this are great!) and equipment balancing (and expansion - rare trade chart never went far enough IMO!), it's the scenarios that have to come first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 11:10:49
Shadow War made it very apparent very quickly that the stock standard Necromunda scenarios are ancient unwieldy things that need complete rewriting. And there needs to be more of them. Yes, I love The Scavengers because it's a fun mission that requires players to do something other than line up and shoot one another, but you can't just play that one scenario over and over again.
If you are able to just line up and shoot then you are using not enough terrain. Drastically not enough.
2017/07/31 11:26:18
Subject: Re:Info on new Necromunda coming in WD sept
If you have the option of playing with a good game master, that person can be a balancing element. The gang that is getting too far ahead and is lethal to all opponents?
Next time two gangs are teaming up and will form one team against them to ambush the gangs HQ.
Maybe they are getting so powerful the Hives upper government is worried they could be a potential threat to overthrow or challenge the chain of command... Well in that case, the GM sends a team of bounty hunters, mercy, local PDF or Arbites kill team into the under hive to route out this seed of heresy before it can truly flourish.
Maybe the noble houses of the upper hive have heard rumours of this dangerous gang, and it is making them salivate at the thought of hunting them, so they sydr suit up and head on down.
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
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If the answer is "you need a good GM" - then what you have is a game that's broken and needs fixing as you go.
I agree with HBMC, scenarios are the most obvious area that needs massive work. More and better. Do not try to balance the game through stupidly weighted scenarios (!)
Not that they were admitting to even having a production schedule after Adeptus Titanicus, but Battlefleet Gothic seemed the most likely game to come next. I'm not expecting Necromunda 3rd edtion before 2020. 
374th Mechanized 195pts 
