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(This is dakka I should know better) Thing is, if you're actually playing games of 8th you'd know - EVERYTHING else in the Space Marine army, or the game in general, is pretty much more deadly than Sniper scouts. They have a small niche specialty and they can be moderately effective in that role - but everything else is more killy now in 8th.

There's a reason you don't see 'sniper scout lists' winning the big tournaments.

If you had a hero without the 'Independent Character' rule in almost, any, previous edition you had much more to be scared of from sniper scouts.

 Talamare wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Aren't Ratlings like 1/3 of the cost of Scouts?

360 points of Ratlings = 51 Ratlings

51 * 2/3 * 1/6 = ~6 Mortal Wounds

They're also BS 4+.

51 * 1/2 * 1/6 = 4.25.

And honestly, if 51 ratlings can all see your character, you're either playing on a silly open board, or you are strutting him around in a way where he should die. And if you didn't get first turn, those ratlings are down to 20~ left from just a little bit of small arms fire.

Check again and be shocked and amazed

They also have an effective 4+ armor save
Plenty survivable for only 7pts each, I would love if someone with a Conscript Spam list would be willing to try proxying those conscripts as Ratlings

Fair enough, they're only BS4+ if they have to move. But with 51 of the little gits, I have a hard time seeing you manage to get them all in cover and also able to shoot at something.

Ahh and this is why i come to the dakka forums. If your experience at any point in time is different from another persons you are wrong, every thought going forward is wrong and you should feel bad for even expressing your opinion in the first place.

Now what seems to be misconstrued is that yes with row boat backing i have seen whole squads of guys disappear under snipers. But that is not the issue. Row boat is his own issue.
He is in any ultramarines list and if you think his whole purpose is to babysit snipers you clearly have misconstrued. But when. He is is nearby its just icing.

What I suggested was you only take the mortal wound on a failed save. Not a mortal Wound always. It seems the dakka forums have strong opinions on how bad they are and since snipers are clearly the shittiest weapons in the game by this threads assumptions they are fine.

I threw the number 20 put and people latched onto like it was the magic number that everyone was using and everyone who was using was bad.

People complain necrons getting back up squad of snipers takes the 4wd cyptek out.
Kff problems squad of snipers.
An lt helping out snipers

But hey who am I right just a faceless person on the internet with his in game experiences. Please let me know who you are so i can make sure you opinion is placed on a higher pedestal. Or if it does not coincide with mine i can just be dismissive.

Thanks for the info.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Main utility would realistically be killing a low level character, like a guard officer, or softening up a bigger one so he'll go down easier in combat, like a space marine captain or even guileman. You're realistically not killing them but you can soften them up so they think twice about charging in to combat

Correct. Ten Scout Snipers can fairly reliably take down a commissar in one turn.

 Melissia wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Main utility would realistically be killing a low level character, like a guard officer, or softening up a bigger one so he'll go down easier in combat, like a space marine captain or even guileman. You're realistically not killing them but you can soften them up so they think twice about charging in to combat

Correct. Ten Scout Snipers can fairly reliably take down a commissar in one turn.

That seems about what they should be able to do given their cost. Hardly op.

There are similarly priced eldar units that can fairly reliably 1 turn kill a stormraven or bigger, a 30 point commissar dying to snipers is quite underwhelming.

However, the commissar dying can cripple a Guard army forcing them to take massive amounts of casualties, so it's a pretty hard counter to horde guard. Similar to other buffs, though most other buffers are harder to kill. Still, against anything else you can probably stand to shoot at a character for more than one turn, and thus eliminate them in two or three unless the enemy attacks your scouts-- and if they're doing that, they're not attacking your heavy-hitters.

 Melissia wrote:
However, the commissar dying can cripple a Guard army forcing them to take massive amounts of casualties, so it's a pretty hard counter to horde guard. Similar to other buffs, though most other buffers are harder to kill. Still, against anything else you can probably stand to shoot at a character for more than one turn, and thus eliminate them in two or three unless the enemy attacks your scouts-- and if they're doing that, they're not attacking your heavy-hitters.

Cripple a guard army? I think IG infantry spam armies are doing just fine despite expensive snipers being able to kill the 30 point commissar.

Everything can kill everything in 8th, I really can't believe this is an issue here.

Most of the people who complain about conscripts and the like are complaining that a commissar is unkillable. Also the commander is unkillable too (and bear in mind, conscripts don't have voxcasters so they have to be close by a command squad to receive Orders, to boot).

Let me put it this way, 40 conscripts (40!) and a commissar, is still cheaper than 10 sniper scouts. This is so much a non issue it's ridiculous.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Let me put it this way, 40 conscripts (40!) and a commissar, is still cheaper than 10 sniper scouts. This is so much a non issue it's ridiculous.

I think you misunderstand; I'm not arguing scout snipers are OP. I'm arguing they're useful.

Shhh, both you. This has potential to be an interesting thread, keep your conscript gak out of it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
Let me put it this way, 40 conscripts (40!) and a commissar, is still cheaper than 10 sniper scouts. This is so much a non issue it's ridiculous.

I think you misunderstand; I'm not arguing scout snipers are OP. I'm arguing they're useful.

Ok my bad; mine are painted nice and converted so I like believe they are useful as well. I mostly play against MEQ so they're typically a let down though.

... whilst one would suggest different phrasing it would be better if we don't drag this thread into yet another conscripts debate.


ta.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah fire emblem boards have a saying "PEMN - personal experience means nothing" when discussing some of the characters, because their level stat gains are actually randomized to an extent, so you can end up with two different players using the same character at the same level where one has like...10 more stat points than the other, which is a big difference in FE.

Similar here: you can't feasibly discuss units outside a game without using probability. I've watched a tournament game where Draigo in an invisible centurion star, at full health, was shot by 4 bolters at long-range, hit by all 4, wounded by all 4, and failed all 4 saves. Absolutely uncanny luck that is probably not due to happen again in our lifetime. (In fact if I'm mathing correctly, that was something like a 1/136 million chance.) But more commonly we've all seen that one terminator drop to a lasgun. If you start counting on things like gretchin wounding knights and gaunts passing armor saves, there's not a lot of meaningful discussion to be had.

Thank you for bringing up PEDM. If I have to deal with another "Meg isn't bad" thread one more time I'll end my own life.