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This is one of those things that's so ingrained in 40k that I didn't even think about it until someone pointed it out, but...
Where, exactly, are the rules for how you are supposed to check the range of a gun when firing it?

Like... It seems like it should be obvious. But someone claimed that you only check range to see if at least one gun is in range, and then all of the same gun just get to fire. I thought they were being stupid, until I looked in the rulebook, and... Nothing. Can't find anything. The rule as written says that:
"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and visible to the shooting model."

The person at my LGS I think is interpreting this to say that, 'once the enemy unit is targeted and in range of the weapon being used, all of that weapon can fire'. (For example, if you had thirty guardsmen Lasguns, and a few of them at the front were 23" away but the rest of the blob was 25"+, you would target the enemy unit, check that a model was within range with Lasgun, and then check LoS for all the models to ensure they can all fire. Since you checked that a model was in range with the weapon being used, that weapon is then good to be fired by everyone with the same weapon in the squad.)

And I'm faaaairly sure that the way he is doing this is wrong because it seems idiotic to me, but the problem is that I don't have anything concrete, and he's the guy organizing our escalation league, so I need good, strong evidence that he's full of it so I can explain why.

As you quoted:

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and visible to the shooting model."

A model must be within Range of the weapon being used. You are checking range for each firing model, based on which weapon they are using. There is nothing saying, or implying that checking range for that one model suddenly means other models in the same unit are now considered to be within range of the enemy unit. In this case the word 'that' (of 'that unit') is referring to the target enemy unit. Not sure how much more concrete it needs to be than what the RAW say.

 yakface wrote:

As you quoted:

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and visible to the shooting model."

A model must be within Range of the weapon being used. You are checking range for each firing model, based on which weapon they are using. There is nothing saying, or implying that checking range for that one model suddenly means other models in the same unit are now considered to be within range of the enemy unit. In this case the word 'that' (of 'that unit') is referring to the target enemy unit. Not sure how much more concrete it needs to be than what the RAW say.

But (he says that) that rule exists for the purpose of targeting an enemy, not actually shooting at them. You have to check if the enemy unit is in range to target them, once they're targeted, you just shoot at them with as many as you want of whatever weapon you chose. (So, "I choose these four boltguns to fire, I target this enemy unit, I check range from a model holding a boltgun, he's in range, now the unit fires.")

Waaaghpower wrote:

 yakface wrote:

As you quoted:

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and visible to the shooting model."

A model must be within Range of the weapon being used. You are checking range for each firing model, based on which weapon they are using. There is nothing saying, or implying that checking range for that one model suddenly means other models in the same unit are now considered to be within range of the enemy unit. In this case the word 'that' (of 'that unit') is referring to the target enemy unit. Not sure how much more concrete it needs to be than what the RAW say.

But (he says that) that rule exists for the purpose of targeting an enemy, not actually shooting at them. You have to check if the enemy unit is in range to target them, once they're targeted, you just shoot at them with as many as you want of whatever weapon you chose. (So, "I choose these four boltguns to fire, I target this enemy unit, I check range from a model holding a boltgun, he's in range, now the unit fires.")

No.

The rules clearly say that a model must be in range.
Model 1 in range? Yes. Fire the model's weapon.
Model 2 in range? Yes. Fire the model's weapon.
etc

That's how the rules are written.

BUT! There is a paragraph, that you can fast roll dice, which means you lump together models from a unit with the same BS and the same weapon. That doesn't suddenly mean you can skip the range process for models.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 yakface wrote:

As you quoted:

"In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile) and visible to the shooting model."

A model must be within Range of the weapon being used. You are checking range for each firing model, based on which weapon they are using. There is nothing saying, or implying that checking range for that one model suddenly means other models in the same unit are now considered to be within range of the enemy unit. In this case the word 'that' (of 'that unit') is referring to the target enemy unit. Not sure how much more concrete it needs to be than what the RAW say.

But (he says that) that rule exists for the purpose of targeting an enemy, not actually shooting at them. You have to check if the enemy unit is in range to target them, once they're targeted, you just shoot at them with as many as you want of whatever weapon you chose. (So, "I choose these four boltguns to fire, I target this enemy unit, I check range from a model holding a boltgun, he's in range, now the unit fires.")

No.

The rules clearly say that a model must be in range.
Model 1 in range? Yes. Fire the model's weapon.
Model 2 in range? Yes. Fire the model's weapon.
etc

That's how the rules are written.

BUT! There is a paragraph, that you can fast roll dice, which means you lump together models from a unit with the same BS and the same weapon. That doesn't suddenly mean you can skip the range process for models.

I think that might be something I can work with. Is there an explicit, unarguable line in the rules somewhere that specifically says that all shooting is handled on a model-by-model basis, and can't be done on a unit-by-unit basis anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(By the way: Yes, I'm aware that this is kind of a really frustrating argument. I am trying to make it as clear-cut as possible before talking to our TO, though.)

Yes, the 'Fast Dice Rolling' paragraph on the Shooting Phase page.

First sentence:

The rules for resolving
attacks have been written
assuming you will make
them one at a time.

Edit:
And just to clarify, it's still (partly) unit based! You choose a unit to shoot with, then a single model from that unit. If all models from the unit have finished shooting, you move on to the next unit.

Also, from the 'stepping into the new edition' FAQ (emphasis mine):

Q. Can you wound models in a target unit that
are not visible to the firer or that are beyond its
maximum range?
A. Yes.

When resolving a shooting attack, only one model in the target
unit needs to be visible and within range of the firing model
in order to make the attack. Your opponent can allocate any
resulting wounds to any unwounded models in the target unit
that they choose, even those that are not visible or within range
of the attack.

Everything in the rules and FAQ says that you are checking range from each firing model. If somebody willingly chooses to ignore what the rules are saying, not sure how to convince them.

And before someone tries to say that the above FAQ answer actually indicates that you only need one model to be within range for the entire unit to shoot...that's not what it says. A 'shooting attack' is a very specific thing (each 'shot' of a weapon is a shooting attack per the rules), so that answer is specifically talking about a single shooting attack (from one firing model).

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yes, the 'Fast Dice Rolling' paragraph on the Shooting Phase page.

First sentence:

The rules for resolving
attacks have been written
assuming you will make
them one at a time.

Edit:
And just to clarify, it's still (partly) unit based! You choose a unit to shoot with, then a single model from that unit. If all models from the unit have finished shooting, you move on to the next unit.

Thank you.
Though, side question: Doesn't that kind of make checking range a nightmare? Because if a unit is at the edge of your range, after firing one weapon an opponent could remove the model in front, and then you'd have to check again to see if the next one is in range, and then again, over and over.


(Also, a side-note: He also says that to move or charge to the next level of a ruin or up to a ledge on a terrain feature, you have to move straight forward the distance and then vertically up, rather than travelling in a straight line (That is, you can't go along the hypotenuse, you have to travel the length of the other two sides) unless the terrain feature itself is sloped. Is this correct?)

Remember also that at Step '3. Choose Range Weapon' you will need to decide how you split the whole unit's fire:
".. declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next."

So what the rule above states is that you cannot start shooting at one target one weapon at a time and then change the target when you have achieved the desired amount of casualties/effect on target!
Also targets must be decided at earlier step, but then neither step demands you to actually shoot at all the targeted units!

Ghorgul wrote:
Remember also that at Step '3. Choose Range Weapon' you will need to decide how you split the whole unit's fire:
".. declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next."

So what the rule above states is that you cannot start shooting at one target one weapon at a time and then change the target when you have achieved the desired amount of casualties/effect on target!
Also targets must be decided at earlier step, but then the neither step demands you to actually shoot at all the targeted units!

Okay, so you choose targets before firing, but don't you still have to check range with each individual shot since you can't fire as a group?

Ghorgul wrote:
Remember also that at Step '3. Choose Range Weapon' you will need to decide how you split the whole unit's fire:
".. declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next."

So what the rule above states is that you cannot start shooting at one target one weapon at a time and then change the target when you have achieved the desired amount of casualties/effect on target!
Also targets must be decided at earlier step, but then the neither step demands you to actually shoot at all the targeted units!

What he said ^

You check range and visibility for every shooting model during step #2. After that you just roll the attacks one at a time knowing already who is within range and has visibility.

It really isn't all that difficult. You just check to see which models don't have range to the target and which models don't have any visibility (at all) to the target, and those models don't fire.

Okay, fair enough.

Any thoughts on the movement range thing?

 yakface wrote:

Ghorgul wrote:
Remember also that at Step '3. Choose Range Weapon' you will need to decide how you split the whole unit's fire:
".. declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next."

So what the rule above states is that you cannot start shooting at one target one weapon at a time and then change the target when you have achieved the desired amount of casualties/effect on target!
Also targets must be decided at earlier step, but then the neither step demands you to actually shoot at all the targeted units!

What he said ^

You check range and visibility for every shooting model during step #2. After that you just roll the attacks one at a time knowing already who is within range and has visibility.

It really isn't all that difficult. You just check to see which models don't have range to the target and which models don't have any visibility (at all) to the target, and those models don't fire.

Yep, this.


Regarding the side-note: Yes, RAW distance is measured only horizontal and vertical. So to climb up a slope of 3" and a rise of 2", you need to spend 5" rather than the 3" you could move diagonally. Stupid, but doesn't have a FAQ/Errata yet if I'm not mistaken.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, fair enough.

Any thoughts on the movement range thing?

You should really take a look at the FAQ documents.

Q. How do vertical distances work for movement
and measurements?
A. All distances are measured in three dimensions, so if
a unit moves over a hill or scales a wall, the horizontal
distance and vertical distance combined cannot exceed
its Movement characteristic. This means that in order
to traverse across an obstacle, you must move up to the
top of that obstacle, move across the top of it, then move
down it.