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hobojebus wrote:
Well after two games I'm dumping my crons back in the box they really arnt in a good place and I'd have to spend a fortune to get a mediocre army, just not worth it.

Yeah, its really bumming me out tbh. Just waitin for the codex. I want my steel phalanx back

The new Chapter Approved sneak peek on the community site confirmed that we are not getting a codex this year.... :(

Pyrothem wrote:
The new Chapter Approved sneak peek on the community site confirmed that we are not getting a codex this year.... :(

Did it say who is?

Pyrothem wrote:
The new Chapter Approved sneak peek on the community site confirmed that we are not getting a codex this year.... :(

Hinted but not confirmed. Not surprised, but I wouldn't count it as gospel yet.

Im just going to say as someone who knows that top necron player she is a cunning and brilliant player who has been practicing since well before 8th dropped. From what she told me a lot of her issues with the BAO were a lot of hard matchups (full knight lists, Magnus Brimstone lists, etc) and a lot more of people still playing rules wrong. He list was a Guass pylon and a load of wraiths + warriors if I recall.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Im just going to say as someone who knows that top necron player she is a cunning and brilliant player who has been practicing since well before 8th dropped. From what she told me a lot of her issues with the BAO were a lot of hard matchups (full knight lists, Magnus Brimstone lists, etc) and a lot more of people still playing rules wrong. He list was a Guass pylon and a load of wraiths + warriors if I recall.

The thing is, though, those "bad matchups" are very much part of the meta. It's not like she pulled edge lists that nobody plays. Tzeentch Daemons/Mixed in particular is going to continue to be top notch even if the nerf hurt their damage output a bit.

If you struggle against strong regular meta lists, you struggle in the meta period. That's what a metagame is in games like 40k.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Im just going to say as someone who knows that top necron player she is a cunning and brilliant player who has been practicing since well before 8th dropped. From what she told me a lot of her issues with the BAO were a lot of hard matchups (full knight lists, Magnus Brimstone lists, etc) and a lot more of people still playing rules wrong. He list was a Guass pylon and a load of wraiths + warriors if I recall.

Wraiths have awful damage output, as do warriors. It sounds like she was planning on using the pylon to make up that gap but found herself overwhelmed when the pylon couldn't clear the board fast enough. Hats off to her for trying something interesting, but that's more or less the phase all of the competitive necron players are at, throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks. Also, if your friend is skilled, in practice, has a good understanding of the current meta, and yet ended up only winning only half of her fights that says something.

Necron_Mason wrote:

Aren73 wrote:

I'd suggest a faction command point ability:
"2CP
As soon as a unit has finished attacking a NECRON unit with the REANIMATION PROTOCOLS ability and the NECRON unit has suffered any wounds you can use this ability to immediately make Reanimaion Protocol rolls for each model slain as if it wa the beginning of the movement phase. This does not stop you from making any other reanimation protocol rolls"

Also maybe make this ability only usable if the unit is within 12' of a character.

I haven't seen anyone really talk about this on this thread, but I think this is a great idea! It would give cushion to units so they can't be wiped out as easily while avoiding an army wide buff that would make the army OP and remain fluffy. It would also make an opponent think twice about which units they would want to target to wipe out at what time.

Well, the debate has been between making immediate RP rolls for non-destroyed units vs. making RP rolls for destroyed units.

My only feedback on that particular example is that 2CP is too expensive for an expensive army like Necrons. We're already outnumbered on the board. No need to bake in a CP disadvantage.

IMO, almost all RP shenanigans should be 1CP abilities unless the ability is literally "every RP roll is automatically successful" because we already pay out the nose for RP in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
What if you took the randomness out, then allowed certain boosts to help the number?

For instance, the Reanimation step happens let's say when a unit activates in the movement phase. For every 5 models the units started with, it regains 1 that's been lost to battlefield damage, up to the number of models it started the game with. (IE, 10 models, lost a guy, can only get 1 back, not 2.) (This cannot be done if the unit has been wiped out.)

A Cryptic allows you an aura, "Quality Reanimation" or whatever you'd like to name it, which adds 1 to the reanimation protocols of a unit within, say, 6". Thus, a 10 man unit gets back 3 per movement phase, a 20 man gets 5, etc.
The Res Orb goes in the psychic phase. Target a unit with 12". Immediately gain the resurrection protocol for that unit. NOT a one per game, but you can only target a single unit at a time, so, it lets your leaders influence things.

From there, you can have units interact with this... Spyders might get a repair option, while Ghost Arcs certainly would. (When a unit embarks, trigger Reanimation Protocols.) .... and let 'em heal each turn that they're inside, so when a unit gets down to 2 or 3 guys, you pick 'em up, and in a coupe of turns, they're back to fighting shape, faster if you fly over to a Cryptec who can raise 'em faster.


It's less Feast or Famine, but easier to handle.

Just a thought.

All that would do is encourage focus fire even more from our opponents.

Actually, I'd almost be in favor of putting limits on how many RP rolls we can make per turn in exchange for a blanket point cost decrease. Something like you get 10 RP dice per detachment, and can only take RP rolls on units that have not been destroyed. In exchange, for example, Necron warriors would only cost 8-9 points per model instead of 12.

That way you get less frustration for opponent who risk spending ALL of their firepower on a single unit only to watch it all get negated by one or two godly RP rolls.

Then, allow necron armies to use command points to break the RP dice-limits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Im just going to say as someone who knows that top necron player she is a cunning and brilliant player who has been practicing since well before 8th dropped. From what she told me a lot of her issues with the BAO were a lot of hard matchups (full knight lists, Magnus Brimstone lists, etc) and a lot more of people still playing rules wrong. He list was a Guass pylon and a load of wraiths + warriors if I recall.

A wraith wing? I think I'm in love!

Seriously though, I played a wraith wing back in 4th and 5th. I was so depressed when they lost WBB in 5th :(

Long time lurker,

Had some thoughts about how to improve reanimation protocols.

"If a unit with <Reanimation Protocols> would be destroyed for the first time during an enemy turn, you may immediately make a Reanimation Protocols roll for each model destroyed during their turn. This rule does not apply to units that have fled from moral.

If a unit was destroyed and returned in this manner, skip that units normal reanimation protocols on the next turn.

Other abilities that allow additional reanimation protocols rolls still apply."

So it goes away after it been used once? That doesn't sound necron at all. What, did their repair systems run out of batteries?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it goes away after it been used once? That doesn't sound necron at all. What, did their repair systems run out of batteries?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it goes away after it been used once? That doesn't sound necron at all. What, did their repair systems run out of batteries?

Once per enemy turn, per unit.

Sturg wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So it goes away after it been used once? That doesn't sound necron at all. What, did their repair systems run out of batteries?

Once per enemy turn, per unit.

Oh ok, that's a lot better

I'm just waiting for AM players to tell us the army is fine.

I was thinking about this earlier.

I think one of the main problems facing GW is how to fairly balance durability armies. If you balance durability too low/focused on single damage weapons, than we are at risk against multi damage weapons.

If you balance against multi damage weapons, you become very, very strong, nigh unkillable.

The two weakest factions atm are death guard and necrons, suggesting that our durability on both sides is undertuned.

 Klowny wrote:
The two weakest factions atm are death guard and necrons, suggesting that our durability on both sides is undertuned.

My guess is that Death Guard will pick up as soon as their codex drops (to judge by the significant price reductions awarded to SMs and CSMs in their books).

It's possible that Necrons will be the same, except that we're in for a significantly longer wait for our book.

The idea is it will force your opponent to choose. Do I wipe the squad? I'll get guaranteed casualties (because you skip your RP for that unit the next turn), or do I let moral tests do their job and have the unit run away (if the squad flees from moral you don't get the immediate reanimation).

That gives us some room for counter play. Do I spend the 2 CP to auto-pass the moral test? Does a Lord's moral reroll suddenly become useful? The ghost ark then becomes a prime target to stop the second reanimation rolls.

Remember in the 5E/6E Codex when our Crypteks did usefull stuff like Haywire and TPing our units around the board ? We need that.

Right now it's roll to hit, roll 5's to wound, pray they fail their 2+ or 3+ saves at -1. Repeat until it, or you are dead.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Necron_Mason wrote:

Aren73 wrote:

I'd suggest a faction command point ability:
"2CP
As soon as a unit has finished attacking a NECRON unit with the REANIMATION PROTOCOLS ability and the NECRON unit has suffered any wounds you can use this ability to immediately make Reanimaion Protocol rolls for each model slain as if it wa the beginning of the movement phase. This does not stop you from making any other reanimation protocol rolls"

Also maybe make this ability only usable if the unit is within 12' of a character.

I haven't seen anyone really talk about this on this thread, but I think this is a great idea! It would give cushion to units so they can't be wiped out as easily while avoiding an army wide buff that would make the army OP and remain fluffy. It would also make an opponent think twice about which units they would want to target to wipe out at what time.

Well, the debate has been between making immediate RP rolls for non-destroyed units vs. making RP rolls for destroyed units.

My only feedback on that particular example is that 2CP is too expensive for an expensive army like Necrons. We're already outnumbered on the board. No need to bake in a CP disadvantage.

IMO, almost all RP shenanigans should be 1CP abilities unless the ability is literally "every RP roll is automatically successful" because we already pay out the nose for RP in the first place.

Yeah, I was thinking about the CP cost as well. I have only played a few games of 8th so far and I wasn't sure the average of CP armies usually get throughout the point tiers, as well as how powerful the stratagems are suppose to be, so I didn't comment on it. I am completely fine with it being 1CP, but as I said I don't have the experience to really say for sure if 1CP would be overpowered or if 2CP would be underpowered.

Honestly...call me crazy. Something that would make our units a little more reasonably priced at their current level, and improve our durability, leaving RP alone, would be a number of +1 buffs to base necron armor saves...Lychguard and Characters getting a 2+...Immortals having an upgrade option to GIVE them a 2+ armor saves.

These beings are made of metal...living...regenerating metal. I'm amazed their armor isn't better in some cases that it is.
Also...the Monolith...supposed to be absurdly hard to destroy...WHY does it only have a 3+?? At nearly 400 points...there is 0 reason to take one, when you can take the Necron FW Pylon, and get far more mileage out of it for like...50 points more.

That, or give us back the Cryptek toolbox. The ability to force nightfighting turn 1 for your enemy to get a -1 to hit on that absurd alpha strike would help us last later into the game.

Reading through this, there is alot of good ideas.

My gaming group has been talking about necrons, and everyone is in rough agreement that mobility and damage are the most important buffs we need to get back in order to be a more competitive army.

Enhanced durability is hard to balance, either being underwhelming or broken.

Whats easier and quicker is mobility and damage, metrics every other army uses. It would also be better for a necron player, as increased durability isn't very engaging in a game, and it makes you just sit there and take punishment and hope you outlast the opponent, which can lead to passive playstyles.

Keep us on our current chassis, its durable if you dont know how to play against it, but give us more power in our punches, and give us abilites to get said punches to land efficiently. That is a much more engaging army.

RP is a cool and thematic mechanic, its better than 7th for both parties, but I feel doubling down on its power wont fix the problems we have as an army.

One of the main selling features of this edition from GW themselves was that everything can hurt everything and stuff dies fast. Increasing our durability negates this to some extent and isn't fun to play with or against for the most part.

What necrons lack is a way to take multiple high str attacks we have a few expensive vehicles and heavy destroyers which is pitiful compared to most other armies.

I saw a monolith torn down in one round of shooting there's no way for us to equal that.

We handle infantry fine but gl taking on knights.

 iGuy91 wrote:

That, or give us back the Cryptek toolbox. The ability to force nightfighting turn 1 for your enemy to get a -1 to hit on that absurd alpha strike would help us last later into the game.

Well, on the bright side, the cryptek toolbox is something I'm blindly assuming we'll get back. I mean, the psycher toolbox is the first thing everyone else got back and the relic system would be an easy thing to incorporate it into (on top of a simple "pay-by-the-rule" upgrade selection on the cryptek datasheet.

I'd be more worried about GW keeping crypteks as they are, and giving all the customization over to the lords and overlords instead of spreading it around.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
What necrons lack is a way to take multiple high str attacks we have a few expensive vehicles and heavy destroyers which is pitiful compared to most other armies.

I saw a monolith torn down in one round of shooting there's no way for us to equal that.

We handle infantry fine but gl taking on knights.

Which is backwards because vehicles has never been a necron weak point before. But it was that way because of auto-glancing on 6's with gauss. The Index took that away, and didn't give anything back to compensate. So now we're just stuck without anything to kill big stuff with, barring 100 ppm heavy destroyers, 200 ppm death rays, and 200 ppm doom's day cannons.

Granted, there's also the problem that S10 fire used to be a lot better at simply popping vehicles. Even with only one shot per model per round, it was reliable.

Now it's reliably 7 wounds per round or less, which is just terrible for it's price. At 200 ppm, I could get a quad-las pred which would push out double the wounds per turn, or more if I buff it with a character bubble.

 Arandmoor wrote:


Now it's reliably 7 wounds per round or less, which is just terrible for it's price. At 200 ppm, I could get a quad-las pred which would push out double the wounds per turn, or more if I buff it with a character bubble.

That's really two of our problems on display there, the first being that we are paying too much for our anti-vehicle assets, and second being we don't have a buff aura/ability for our vehicles. For a weapon like high powered blast on a DDA, It's expensive enough it should have a fixed number of shots similar to the Monolith. even if they gave us heavy 2 (heavy 4 vs. 10+ models), the DDA is a twin las predator with two hurricane bolters, that we are paying a 50% premium on, that can't move and shoot. I assume we are paying for quantum shielding and living metal, but man are they over priced if they account for the remainder of the difference.

In the same vein, If they gave the deathray heavy 2 instead of heavy D3, it would be a slightly better twin linked lascannon.

 Grimgold wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:


Now it's reliably 7 wounds per round or less, which is just terrible for it's price. At 200 ppm, I could get a quad-las pred which would push out double the wounds per turn, or more if I buff it with a character bubble.

That's really two of our problems on display there, the first being that we are paying too much for our anti-vehicle assets, and second being we don't have a buff aura/ability for our vehicles. For a weapon like high powered blast on a DDA, It's expensive enough it should have a fixed number of shots similar to the Monolith. even if they gave us heavy 2 (heavy 4 vs. 10+ models), the DDA is a twin las predator with two hurricane bolters, that we are paying a 50% premium on, that can't move and shoot. I assume we are paying for quantum shielding and living metal, but man are they over priced if they account for the remainder of the difference.

In the same vein, If they gave the deathray heavy 2 instead of heavy D3, it would be a slightly better twin linked lascannon.

On the bright side, after reading the new chaos codex, I'm six kinds of excited about where the new edition is heading. However, I'll reserve final judgement for the first Xenos codex release. If it goes "Next up, 3 different Ork codexes!" I'll be very happy!

OTOH, if it goes "First up, Orks! Then Eldar! Then Necrons! All out in the next two months!" I'm going to be very sad, and probably pack up my again until they start diversifying things that aren't marines.

...maybe I'll take a few hours out of my schedule to track down some GW people at GenCon...

How do you all feel about the Gauss Pylon, Sentry Pylons and Tesseract Arcs when it comes to vehicle killing?
A Sentry Pylon with Gauss Exterminators for example (if for some reason you arent taking the Heat gun for 25pts more), is the same price as 2 Heavy Destroyers, has the same number of shots, has far more powerful shots, is way more durable, can deepstrike for 10pts more, and only lacks the destroyers mobility and rerolling 1s to hit. In my eyes they make Heavy Destroyers redundant. With the Heat gun (FW Xenos dex is at home and can't remember it's exact name) they are even better for their points with 3.5 average shots and more damage at half range.
Whilst Arks (with tesla) are like a cross between a Pylon and an Anni Barge, but far more durable than either (5++, T7, Quantum Shielding, Living Metal), for just around 60pts more than a heat Pylon, throwing almost as many tesla shots as an Anni Barge on top of that (6 st 6 as opposed to 8 st 7, but the difference between st6 and 7 is no longer dramatic).
As for the Gauss Pylon, it looks crazy good at killing vehicles and MCs. Auto hitting most things with fly, hitting 'hard to hit' flyers on a 2+, hitting all other vehicles on a 3+, with D6 shots, wounding T6 on a 2+ and anything above on a 3+, ignoring almost all armour saves and then doing 6+d3 damage a shot (at some point in the process it would probably be the most efficient use Necrons have of that CP reroll). Plus being Macro for double damage against Titanic. It looks like it will eat a vehicle/flyer/MC for breakfast each turn, for less than 500pts. Let alone that small 5++ bubble it gives.
I know an Index shouldn't have to rely on FW to work properly, but that was the case last edition with my CSM and BA... just a pity that more money is now going to be needed to make my Crons usable now - already had to fork it out for the other armies.

This is all what I've seen in paper. I've only used my IG and CSM so far in this edition so I may be wrong and have literally zero experience with Crons this edition. But what do you think? Do these three units help towards solving the absurdity that Necrons can't deal with armour and MCs in a points efficient manner any more?

Obviously it does nothing to help the mobility and RP issues, but 1 step at a time.

P.s. I still really really miss my haywire/veil courts running rampant against opponents mech!

The big pylon is the star of our faction currently, very good for its price point.

The sentry pylons are also very good, I prefer running the heat ray (just for the increased amount of shots on average) and its not tethered to focusing on "FLY" units. But both work well.

TA i have found to do a lot of work, however if you bring a pylon, DDA get the job done better while also having the 5++, but are not as mobile. But the arks on their own are very very capable and a solid vehicle addition to a fast mobile necron army.

I'm glad to hear that this is the case. Having only Heavy Destroyers, Doom Scythes (no rule to keep full bs on the Death Ray is very bad) and Doomsday Arcs as the only reliable anti tank would have been pretty depressing since, imo, they are all massively overcosted.
Acanthrites look pretty nifty for 60pts as well - very mobile, hit hard in assault, wielding Melta weaponry and pretty tough to boot. A nice unit to be escorting a Destroyer Lord. In a list with a Gauss Pylon, Sentry Pylons and Tesseract Arcs, they shouldn't be absorbing much multidamage ap stripping shots either.
Tesla Immortals look the go-to troops choice in this edition as it stands having run the maths on them compared to Warriors and Gauss Immortals - they make the Crons a mid rather than short range force.

We've always been a short-mid range army, not much has changed. Just what is good. But yes, aranthracites are okay, id be using scarabs to screen the lord, much cheaper and less of a threat concentration.

That's true but the 'assault' aspect of their tesla weaponry puts them firmly in the mid range rather than short like Gauss. Yeh Scarabs are a good shout for a screen... Will come up with a list using these ideas soon.