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Sim-Life wrote: Literally what are you doing in your lists and on the table where a single on foot unit is able to reach and kill half your army in close combat in one turn?
Unless you're playing Imperial Knights and make really bad target priority decisions I feel like your exaggerating.
They're not on foot. The example given above was having them in a Kharybdis drop pod. They arrive in charging distance of whatever they want.
Plus, that 3 CP gave you 75 extra attacks, all of which get free rerolls on hit and wound, in the example given. Versus 3 rerolls some other time in the game.
Personally I can think of no better use of CP for a World Eater army. Eating the world is the best it gets.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Desubot wrote: Also for all we know zerks might be getting a price hike for all that power.
At this rate I'd totally agree with that point raise.
My army is going to cornholio everyone in the Khorne-hole.
ehehehee *flees*
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
You'll still want to do it. Especially if you're doing a multi-charge, or charging any other unit with lots of shooting. Yes, it AVERAGES that many kills, but due to the sheer number of dice, it gets swingy.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 16:27:34
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Zerks are also give you the most bodies for the least price right now (comes in packs of 12 as opposed to 10).
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
So we want a vehicle tarpit of some kind to deal with Beserkers probably, a Rhino would probably do the job of delaying them opening up another round of ranged fire being able to hit them.
Maybe that Earthshaker stratagem for Thunderfire cannons will see use afterall.
Assault terminators with claws would probably do good work against them on the charge, thinning their numbers out dramatically before they could hit back. Using CP or the black templars CT to get rerolls on the charge for maximum chance of actually completing it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 16:33:47
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
This makes me very happy. My World Eaters will definitely be seeing the table again soon
“Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does.
That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
– Eighth Captain, Khârn
Melissia wrote: Assault terminators with claws would probably do good work against them on the charge, thinning their numbers out dramatically before they could hit back. Using CP or the black templars CT to get rerolls on the charge for maximum chance of actually completing it.
I don't know if Terminators are quite cost effective in this, you would have to take a decent amount of termies in min. squads to counteract them on a by unit basis. Maybe just 2 with teleport homers to provide an initial alpha on the backlines then teleport back to beta strike or act as a wall with the remains of the squad.
Melissia wrote: Assault terminators with claws would probably do good work against them on the charge, thinning their numbers out dramatically before they could hit back. Using CP or the black templars CT to get rerolls on the charge for maximum chance of actually completing it.
I don't know if Terminators are quite cost effective in this, you would have to take a decent amount of termies in min. squads to counteract them on a by unit basis. Maybe just 2 with teleport homers to provide an initial alpha on the backlines then teleport back to beta strike or act as a wall with the remains of the squad.
That sounds like a good plan to me. They can teleport to their homer instead of falling back, too, by the way-- always something important to keep in mind, since they can still move after doing so as it's not a Fall Back move.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
In the rules for the fight phase on page 8, pile-in is the second step of the fight phase (after choosing a unit to fight with), and consolidation is the last. So anything that grants an additional fight phase automatically grants an additional pile-in and consolidation move, because they're just part of it. Unless, of course, the rule that grants it is also written to specifically prohibit you from using those moves.
So every time a unit fights, the process goes like this:
1: Choose a unit to fight.
2: Pile-in
3: Choose targets (this of course means you can target things you would need a pile-in to reach, because the pile-in happens first)
4: Choose weapons
5: Swing
6: Consolidate
Repeat for each unit that can fight.
Because those two moves are an integral part of the fighting process, anything that grants a fight phase (as opposed to just granting attacks) also grants additional moves unless it specifically states otherwise.
So hold on a fething second: does this mean if you completely wipe something out with your Berzerker's first fight phase than you can simply take a six inch free move towards the closest enemy unit? This is pretty much what this means, correct?
Sim-Life wrote: Saying something has 15 attacks in one turn sounds impressive but how often are you going to need that many attacks?
When 80% of the squad has been wiped out, obviously.
That one or two models can completely wipe out an entire squad by themselves if left alone means that you can't ever ignore them. You have to destroy the entire unit, rather then just cripple it, which makes it very likely that you'll be overkilling it and wasting points.
andysonic1 wrote: So hold on a fething second: does this mean if you completely wipe something out with your Berzerker's first fight phase than you can simply take a six inch free move towards the closest enemy unit? This is pretty much what this means, correct?
3" for sure (consolidation), but I think to pile-in you do still need at least one model in the unit to be eligible to fight in the first place.
So, as long as they can find a target within 3.99" of one of their models (because remember, they don't need to reach B2B, just 1"), that one model can consolidate 3" to stay in combat. Now the unit is eligible to fight, and the rest of the unit can make an additional 3" pile-in to catch up to that one model. Then, when they're done swinging, they can make another 3" consolidation.
However, you probably do also have to declare a charge against all the units you were planning to consolidate into that turn, even if you can't reach some of them initially. This is because of the "designer's notes", which seem to essentially be a "FAQ-lite".
A unit that charged is able to pile-in even if casualties brought it out of 1" range (it can still only swing if said pile-in managed to bring it back in, but it can consolidate regardless). This means pile-in and consolidation can be used much more aggressively on the turn that you charged than on subsequent turns.
A pile-in or consolidate can bring a unit into combat without a declared charge and without overwatch, but you won't be able to make attacks against that unit until your opponent engages with them in *their* fight phase. This is remedied by including them in your charge declaration if you expect to reach them with a pile-in or consolidation in the same turn. Remember, you only have to actually reach one of the units you declared a charge against for the charge to be "successful", and then the charge is valid for the rest of the turn.
Desubot wrote: Piling in i get i mean the permission to get within 1" of a unit that was not declared for assault.
The pile-in and consolidate rules specifically allow this. Read the Rulebook.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: So we want a vehicle tarpit of some kind to deal with Beserkers probably, a Rhino would probably do the job of delaying them opening up another round of ranged fire being able to hit them.
Maybe that Earthshaker stratagem for Thunderfire cannons will see use afterall.
I'm not so sure how well Vehicle Tarpits will do. Berserkers have S6 axes so they wound on 5s for any T7 vehicles. With the aforementioned 225 attacks, 200 hitting, wounds rerolling, your Rhino is still going to explode and then some.
Even if you were to charge them to hopefully tie them up for a turn....
The same 18 Berserker (3 champs) + Exalted Champ + Dark Apostle blob would have:
- 3 attacks per Zerker, 4 per champ, rerolling all the things
- 57 attacks, 2/3 of which are S6, about 32 hitting per fight phase with 22 being S6.
- 12 S6 wounds and 3 S5 wounds on average; Rhino has to make 15 3+ saves, 12 of which are at -1
- Rhino takes on average about 7 wounds per fight phase.
- Berserkers fight twice.......................................
- If the Rhino somehow survives his average 14 wounds, spend 3 CP to have them fight AGAIN
Next turn, your Berserkers aren't tied up and can continue on their merry way, appreciating the free consolidation move the Rhino generously gave them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 17:46:54
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
andysonic1 wrote: So hold on a fething second: does this mean if you completely wipe something out with your Berzerker's first fight phase than you can simply take a six inch free move towards the closest enemy unit? This is pretty much what this means, correct?
In the charge phase:
First you have to declare a charge vs anything you want to fight.
Then you have to get at least one model within 1" of one of those units during your charge move. The rest of the models can go anywhere they want to, but this placement is very important, so plan ahead.
In the fight phase:
You can fight with 2 kinds of units: ones that are within 1" of the enemy, and ones that charged. This means that if you charge two of your units into 1 enemy unit and your first unit wipes out the enemy unit, your second unit that charged still gets to fight.
When you pile in, you can move each model up to 3" in any direction as long as you are at least a tiny bit closer to the closest enemy unit. This let's you reach units you couldn't in your charge phase as long as you can get to them with 3" and still end up closer to the closest enemy unit. This is why positioning in the charge move is so important.
For units that can fight more than once, it's completely possible to charge units A B and C as long as they are all within 12, fight and kill A, consolidate into / towards B, fight, pile in, kill B, consolidate into / towards C, and so on. The only limitations are always ending pile in and consolidate moves closer to the closest unit, and only being able to fight what you charged. You can lock things you didn't charge, though.
Desubot wrote: Piling in i get i mean the permission to get within 1" of a unit that was not declared for assault.
Only applies to the movement phase and the charge movement (if you didn't declare them as a target). Once the fight phase starts the only restriction is closet model, which a new unit can easily be if you moved your models to 1.001 inches away during the charge (only the first model in the unit Is restricted to specifically charging the target)
Desubot wrote: Piling in i get i mean the permission to get within 1" of a unit that was not declared for assault.
Only applies to the movement phase and the charge movement (if you didn't declare them as a target). Once the fight phase starts the only restriction is closet model, which a new unit can easily be if you moved your models to 1.001 inches away during the charge (only the first model in the unit Is restricted to specifically charging the target)
thanks mate
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/03 17:50:43
Desubot wrote: Piling in i get i mean the permission to get within 1" of a unit that was not declared for assault.
The pile-in and consolidate rules specifically allow this. Read the Rulebook.
Specifically where may i ask?
it says you must move near the nearest enemy but nothing that specifically allows or denys a different unit to which you charged initially.
Specifically as in it doesn't prohibit them from doing so. The only prohibitions to the moving closer than 1" are found in the Movement and Charging phases. Nothing stops you from piling in or consolidating closer so it's allowed.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
Nearest enemy both allows and denies it. If a model moves, it must end closer to nearest enemy. It doesn't matter if you charged it or not.
It isn't a charge move or the movement phase, so the restrictions for those things no longer matter (as they are very specificly for the phase and the charge move)
But the distanced moved is up to you (including 0), so there are ways to do silly things.
A couple of posts up I linked a FAQ that clarifies the situation.
Though also they kind of need to roll those into the main FAQ if they're going to treat it as official. At first I looked up the core rulebook FAQ and went like "That's weird, I was sure they answered that question, where did it go?"
Then I remembered "Oh right, the 'designer's notes' FAQ-but-not-really-okay-kind-of. That's where they clarified things like consolidation and super-exploding plasma."
Melissia wrote: Assault terminators with claws would probably do good work against them on the charge, thinning their numbers out dramatically before they could hit back. Using CP or the black templars CT to get rerolls on the charge for maximum chance of actually completing it.
I don't know if Terminators are quite cost effective in this, you would have to take a decent amount of termies in min. squads to counteract them on a by unit basis. Maybe just 2 with teleport homers to provide an initial alpha on the backlines then teleport back to beta strike or act as a wall with the remains of the squad.
That sounds like a good plan to me. They can teleport to their homer instead of falling back, too, by the way-- always something important to keep in mind, since they can still move after doing so as it's not a Fall Back move.
No you can't, its at the end of the move phase. You can still charge and set up 1 inch away from the enemy though.
ross-128 wrote: A couple of posts up I linked a FAQ that clarifies the situation.
Though also they kind of need to roll those into the main FAQ if they're going to treat it as official. At first I looked up the core rulebook FAQ and went like "That's weird, I was sure they answered that question, where did it go?"
Then I remembered "Oh right, the 'designer's notes' FAQ-but-not-really-okay-kind-of. That's where they clarified things like consolidation and super-exploding plasma."
I think that's because FAQs are split into two sections. The rule changes and the Q:A ellaborations. The designer's notes are valid ellaborations of how the rule ALREADY works while FAQ ones similarly clarify existing rules without changing them. They always worked that way, you were just reading them wrong. That kind of thing. Actual rule changes agreed need to be in the official FAQs.
It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately.
