Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I've seen and participated in discussions all week on the introduction of the SM Codex and how it interacts with the Index in regards to units and point values that are different. From this umbrella subject, three points of contention have come up (and please feel free to let me know if there's one I've missed):

1) The updated point values on loadout options and whether you use the Index, Codex, or a combination of the two.
2) Armies within the Index that shall be receiving a Codex of their own and whether they use the point values of the Index, Codex, or a combination of the two.
3) So-called "legacy units" and whether the options to use them are legal, and if so, so they use the Index, Codex, or a combination of the two to price them

I'm hoping we can come to an agreement on where we as players stand by going over these points with the information given to us as well as addressing any issues I probably missed.

First, the discussion as to whether to use the Index, Codex, or a combination when it comes to Armies that will eventually get their own Codex, as it's probably the quickest to answer. From the The other Angels of Death and Codex: Space Marines article.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out..

Relevant points from their Codexes: Your Questions Answered article answers...

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, or Space Wolves Army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marine to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.
Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

So my understanding is that in casual games you have the choice of using either the Index datasheets or the Codex datasheets to build your army. If you use the Index unit, you pay Index points and use Index options. If you use the Codex unit, you pay Codex points and use Codex options. I say casual to address a point I'll have in the end.

This actually helps answer the other two questions people have had with the release of the codex. Many people were curious as to whether Legacy units (like the LasPlas Razorback and RifleDread) would be allowed, and how the points for them would be determined. Looking at the Codexes: Your Questions Answered article...

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.
Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

So from my understanding, following the logic for the previous question, if you use the Index unit, you pay Index points and use Index options. If you use the Codex unit, you pay Codex points and use Codex options. So feel free to run them in casual games.

This addresses the last point, but this is the one I have the least knowledge on, as I haven't checked the full extent of point differences among Index and Codex units. If the Index and the Codex cost are different, you pay the costs for wherever you grabbed that unit. This does mean you can have units using the same option and paying a different amount for them. This is the cleanest answer I can find from the articles, even if it might not be the best answer.

The last point I have in regards to the legality of what I wrote above

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

From what I can see, you should always use the most up to date datasheets for your unit if it is not casual play. So certain legacy units, ones that have updated Codex info but are missing Index options, need approval to use in tournaments.

A question I have about areas I don't know about. Have any of the Codex units or option stats changed from the Index? Are there articles or FAQ answers that involve this subject that I missed? Are there any other questions I didn't address?
I welcome some Dakka discussion on this. I know I've seen it argued in a few threads, but I'm hoping I found the right things needed to get everyone on the right page.

This has been asked about 5 times now. Short answer is we don't know.

GW have made contradictory statements on the matter.

The best guess so far is if they are completely replaced by the codex (For example, Dreadnoughts, Tactical Squads or Hellblasters), you use the new rules and points, but if they are in the index or linked to an index entry (Like Company Master, or Interrogator-Chaplains) you use the index rules and points.

As for how to deal with things no longer IN the codex, such as Dreadnought Autocannons, no-one knows again. Do we use the Codex Rules and Points for everything except the autocannon or do we use only the index rules and points? No indication whatsoever.

This has been asked about 5 times now. Short answer is we don't know.
GW have made contradictory statements on the matter.

Which is why I'm trying to get as much of that conversation here. Most of the discussions have been for a single element stemming from this one subject.
Do you have any sources? Like I said, I'm trying to gather them up so that we have it all in one place and I and others can come to an agreement.

The best guess so far is if they are completely replaced by the codex (For example, Dreadnoughts, Tactical Squads or Hellblasters), you use the new rules and points, but if they are in the index or linked to an index entry (Like Company Master, or Interrogator-Chaplains) you use the index rules and points

Yeah, that one is pretty easy based on the two articles I linked.

As for how to deal with things no longer IN the codex, such as Dreadnought Autocannons, no-one knows again. Do we use the Codex Rules and Points for everything except the autocannon or do we use only the index rules and points? No indication whatsoever.

I would disagree; I believe the key part is this, emphasis mine from the article...

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

If you want your RifleDread, you use the Index for the datasheet and points, as it's the most recent printing of it having that loadout. It matches how they've done Armies with an upcoming Codex and Index datasheets that were not included in the Codex.

Again, if you have anything that shows the contrary, that's the kind of info I'm hoping to get on here.

Mortarion's Herald wrote:
Again, if you have anything that shows the contrary, that's the kind of info I'm hoping to get on here.

"Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version."

Simply put, we can't use the index for Auto/Las Dreads because the entry for Dreadnoughts has been entirely replaced.

If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?
You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online.

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.
What’s in the codex that’s not in the index?
Good question.

So from the horses mouth. You use the Index until you get a Codex. However if you have a older model such as a Dreadnaught with 2 twin autocannons you use the Index datasheet, and points for it.

Wagguy80 wrote:
So from the horses mouth. You use the Index until you get a Codex. However if you have a older model such as a Dreadnaught with 2 twin autocannons you use the Index datasheet, and points for it.

Except this is contradicted by them saying "Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version."

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except this is contradicted by them saying "Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version."

That's why I said for casual play in my initial post.

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

So if you roll up to your LGS to play on a Thursday night, so long as you tell your opponent that you're using the Index to play the RifleDread, paying from the Index, and your opponent is ok, you should be good to go. When it comes to signing up with for a tournament, I'd assume you need TO approval to run Index datasheets that have been updated in the Codex.
Casual play should be ok, 'competitive' (whatever the term for structured organized tournament play is where lists must be submitted, I don't actually know the correct term for it) needs TO/opponent/whoever you need to submit to approval.

Mortarion's Herald wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except this is contradicted by them saying "Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version."

That's why I said for casual play in my initial post.

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

So if you roll up to your LGS to play on a Thursday night, so long as you tell your opponent that you're using the Index to play the RifleDread, paying from the Index, and your opponent is ok, you should be good to go. When it comes to signing up with for a tournament, I'd assume you need TO approval to run Index datasheets that have been updated in the Codex.
Casual play should be ok, 'competitive' (whatever the term for structured organized tournament play is where lists must be submitted, I don't actually know the correct term for it) needs TO/opponent/whoever you need to submit to approval.

Just tell your opponent your using the forgeworld Mortis dread variant... i think its 5 pts more. Easy peesey

 zedsdead wrote:
Just tell your opponent your using the forgeworld Mortis dread variant... i think its 5 pts more. Easy peesey

Except the mortis has to have matching arms, can't be venerable, and takes a HS slot.

Ok, so this is catastrophically clunky, but here's how I think it works (note: I don't have the SM codex, so I don't know if some point options are the same or different. I'm trying to speak generally)

For obsolete models it says:

Index datasheet
Most recent point values (CURRENTLY the Index).

So the way I'm seeing it, if the model isn't in the codex (example: bike characters, because bikes are no longer wargear), you just use the index entry. But if it's an obsolete option on an existing model, it gets weird.

If the model has an entry, but the option is missing, then the most recent point value for the model is the codex. So a twin AC dread will use the base cost for a codex dread. Now if that's the only unit with a twin AC for Marines (I can't recall offhand), it's not going to be in the codex, thus you would use the point value in the index. So you'd pay codex cost of a dread and index cost of the twin AC. If you wanted the other arm to be a standard option, you'd pay codex price for that weapon.

 Bludbaff wrote:
So the way I'm seeing it, if the model isn't in the codex (example: bike characters, because bikes are no longer wargear), you just use the index entry. But if it's an obsolete option on an existing model, it gets weird.

If the model has an entry, but the option is missing, then the most recent point value for the model is the codex. So a twin AC dread will use the base cost for a codex dread. Now if that's the only unit with a twin AC for Marines (I can't recall offhand), it's not going to be in the codex, thus you would use the point value in the index. So you'd pay codex cost of a dread and index cost of the twin AC. If you wanted the other arm to be a standard option, you'd pay codex price for that weapon.

While a lot of people were thinking this is how it worked, I think the part you cut out of the answer is the real key to how to pay and the reason why I don't think what you are saying works. Emphasis mine...

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

My argument is that "that model and its weapons" means that model and its weapon loadout options on the datasheet. In the case of the RifleDread you use the Index, as the Codex weapon loadout options for the Dread do not include the Twin AC, making the Index the most recent points for that model and its weapons.

I think that because it's the first time GW has officially allowed Legacy units into "normal" play, they had to add the stipulation of the most recent point costs, otherwise people might have some far-fetched idea of using an older edition model or something. This follows the way they're doing the upcoming Codex armies (use the Index rules and points), as well as allowing them the option to possibly reintroduce the discontinued options later on (Codex Imperium 1 2018 has the fixed point costs and the weapon options, so that would be the latest printing, or they release a twin AC pack with a datasheet card for it, etc). To me it seems much more logical than having point for a model spread across X books.

I'm confused. I play Space Wolves; do I use the points values from Codex: Space Marines or the ones in the Index? Couple of things (like Powerfists and Predators) are cheaper in C:SM...

 Weazel wrote:
I'm confused. I play Space Wolves; do I use the points values from Codex: Space Marines or the ones in the Index? Couple of things (like Powerfists and Predators) are cheaper in C:SM...

So my understanding is that when you use a datasheet from the Codex, you use load out options and points from the Codex. If you use a datasheet from the Index, you use the load out options and points from the Index. It follows what GW said in the two pages I referenced in the original post the best. It does mean you can end up paying different prices for the same thing.

Question for people who use an Index army with an upcoming Codex; are the stats on any of the units or weapons different from the Codex, or is it just price changes?

 Weazel wrote:
I'm confused. I play Space Wolves; do I use the points values from Codex: Space Marines or the ones in the Index? Couple of things (like Powerfists and Predators) are cheaper in C:SM...

For Space Wolves, anything that has been updated in the codex (Such as Predators) use the Codex, because you must use the latest rules available for the unit called Predator. For Wolf Lords, you use the Index entry for Captain, since that's the latest rules for the unit called Wolf Lord.

To me the answer is simple. If the option for the war gear you have on the unit is in both the index and codex you use the codex because it's the most recent update. If however the unit with its specific war gear options are not in the codex but are in the index you use the index in its entirety for the cost of the unit.

Examples would be the dreadnought with autocannons, land speeders with 2 heavy flamers, or librarians in terminator armor with a storm shield. These would all use the costs and options from the index. If you did a heavy flamers / ass cannon on the land speeders though they would have to come from the codex because for that load out the most up to date rules are the codex.

However the librarian is where a different issue comes in, because in that one rare situation the question then becomes can you take relics, warlord traits, and powers from the codex and give them to him? I would say yes because a. You don't pay points for these things and b. They said in those articles that the index units would still have access to codex powers like chapter traits and such.

I think that is what makes the most sense. But I would be willing to listen to alternative opinions on it and why.

Azuza001 wrote:
I think that is what makes the most sense. But I would be willing to listen to alternative opinions on it and why.

Trust me, I would love nothing more for this to be true, but it categorically isn't, because of the line in red I quote below. If GW change that line in any official capacity, then we'll all come out smelling of sunshine and rainbows. Until then, Autocannon/Lascannon Venerable Dreads and Librarians with Storm Shields are squatted for the time being.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

This line means anything covered in the codex overwrites the index entry, thus making the index entry entirely invalid. The only index entries you can use are the ones that have "yet to be updated."

So why even put, in that same article mind you, the line

"There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example."

The article contradicts itself in this, (surprise surprise from a gm game lol) but what I think that line means is this-

You can not use the index version of a unit that has existing, more up to date rules, available in the codex for that exact same model. That means lib in term uses codex, but lib in term and storm shield uses index because that's the last place there were up to date rules written for a lib term with a storm shield.

Personally I am shelving my lib term with his storm shield until this is figured out. I would rather have a fun game than maybe use a unit that could cause an issue with my gaming community. I don't want to be that guy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I think that is what makes the most sense. But I would be willing to listen to alternative opinions on it and why.

Trust me, I would love nothing more for this to be true, but it categorically isn't, because of the line in red I quote below. If GW change that line in any official capacity, then we'll all come out smelling of sunshine and rainbows. Until then, Autocannon/Lascannon Venerable Dreads and Librarians with Storm Shields are squatted for the time being.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

This line means anything covered in the codex overwrites the index entry, thus making the index entry entirely invalid. The only index entries you can use are the ones that have "yet to be updated."

So by that logic I can use the Chaos Brimstone index entry because they are cheaper? Good to know. That will surely be healthy for the game, being able to mix and matched under-priced Index units to avoid balancing.

Or, if we're being sensible, you take an all or nothing approach because it's the only way the game can have any semblance of structure.

Do the Brimstones have different options in the Index than in the Codex?
Regardless, you use the most recent points, so using the Index will not make them cheaper.

Again, you can only use the Index datasheet if:
A. It doesn't exist in the Codex.
B. It has options that aren't in the Codex.

And again, you use the most recent points regardless of which source the datasheet comes from.

Read the entire page and don't pick and choose what you want to see. That seems the most sensible approach.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
Do the Brimstones have different options in the Index than in the Codex?
Regardless, you use the most recent points, so using the Index will not make them cheaper.

Again, you can only use the Index datasheet if:
A. It doesn't exist in the Codex.
B. It has options that aren't in the Codex.

And again, you use the most recent points regardless of which source the datasheet comes from.

Read the entire page and don't pick and choose what you want to see. That seems the most sensible approach.

No, you can't mix and match points and rules. You use one datasheet or the other, with the points from the appropriate book.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

This line means anything covered in the codex overwrites the index entry, thus making the index entry entirely invalid. The only index entries you can use are the ones that have "yet to be updated."

Not entirely correct. If you have permission from the opponent (and I would guess TO in a tournament setting), you are allowed to use your Legacy Index units, but I'm guessing you guys are discussing it being used beyond casual play.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
Do the Brimstones have different options in the Index than in the Codex?
Regardless, you use the most recent points, so using the Index will not make them cheaper.

Again, you can only use the Index datasheet if:
A. It doesn't exist in the Codex.
B. It has options that aren't in the Codex.

And again, you use the most recent points regardless of which source the datasheet comes from.

Read the entire page and don't pick and choose what you want to see. That seems the most sensible approach.

No, you can't mix and match points and rules. You use one datasheet or the other, with the points from the appropriate book.

Except the article says the exact opposite:
"In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons"

Mortarion's Herald wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

This line means anything covered in the codex overwrites the index entry, thus making the index entry entirely invalid. The only index entries you can use are the ones that have "yet to be updated."

Not entirely correct. If you have permission from the opponent (and I would guess TO in a tournament setting), you are allowed to use your Legacy Index units, but I'm guessing you guys are discussing it being used beyond casual play.

If you have permission from your opponent, you can use 3rd edition codex entries, use D20's instead of D6's and run Conscript models as Titans. "Getting permission from your opponent" is a pointless line of discussion.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
Except the article says the exact opposite:
"In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons"

I agree with BaconCatBug and that it follows how it plays out with Index armies with an upcoming Codex; Index datasheets pay Index costs, Codex datasheets pay Codex costs. That way you're paying the most recent points for that model and its weapons. You can't pay the Codex points for the Index model's weapons because the Codex model doesn't have those weapons.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Mortarion's Herald wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:

Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

This line means anything covered in the codex overwrites the index entry, thus making the index entry entirely invalid. The only index entries you can use are the ones that have "yet to be updated."

Not entirely correct. If you have permission from the opponent (and I would guess TO in a tournament setting), you are allowed to use your Legacy Index units, but I'm guessing you guys are discussing it being used beyond casual play.

If you have permission from your opponent, you can use 3rd edition codex entries, use D20's instead of D6's and run Conscript models as Titans. "Getting permission from your opponent" is a pointless line of discussion.

No. No it isn't.

You keep leaving out this paragraph from the pre-release Q&A (link in spoiler tag):

"Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index)."

The full Q&A:

"There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."

This gives permission to use, for example, the not-currently-supplied Dreadnought weapon configs mentioned. Please stop telling people they're for casual games only. Yes, there's a new Dreadnought datasheet, but yes, you can use the old one for the options not supported in the new Codex. This Q&A tells you so.

And the Q&A also disqualifies it in the same breath. It's almost like they are two contradictory statements that GW needs to properly clarify! Until then, logic dictates we take the situation that satisfies ALL statements, not just the ones we like. Trust me, I would love NOTHING MORE than to have the AutoCannon/Lascannon venerable dread be legal, but I don't argue for what I want, I argue for what is factual.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This gives permission to use, for example, the not-currently-supplied Dreadnought weapon configs mentioned. Please stop telling people they're for casual games only. Yes, there's a new Dreadnought datasheet, but yes, you can use the old one for the options not supported in the new Codex. This Q&A tells you so.

I reference the question later on about using Legacy units when playing.

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

Can you use them? Of course, with permission from your opponent or the TO of the event. Otherwise you need to use the most up to date datasheets. This is why I say that they've made the rules for using them in casual play in mind, where people are less likely to not give you permission. Otherwise it's up to your opponent or any the governing official in a competitive/non-casual setting. But this won't stop John from going to his LGS on Wednesday to play with the RifleDread he already built.

Mortarion's Herald wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This gives permission to use, for example, the not-currently-supplied Dreadnought weapon configs mentioned. Please stop telling people they're for casual games only. Yes, there's a new Dreadnought datasheet, but yes, you can use the old one for the options not supported in the new Codex. This Q&A tells you so.

I reference the question later on about using Legacy units when playing.

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

Can you use them? Of course, with permission from your opponent or the TO of the event. Otherwise you need to use the most up to date datasheets. This is why I say that they've made the rules for using them in casual play in mind, where people are less likely to not give you permission. Otherwise it's up to your opponent or any the governing official in a competitive/non-casual setting. But this won't stop John from going to his LGS on Wednesday to play with the RifleDread he already built.

Yeah I can see that. It's kind of like how in tradable card games when a new set comes out the old set is no longer legal for tournament play. You can still use the old cards in casual games but that's about it. So we just wait until GW decides to chime in one way or another, but for casual gaming simply talk to your group and come to a conclusion. I know my group is running it the way I mentioned earlier, but we don't play tournaments. Just casual pickup games or narrative campaigns.

Azuza001 wrote:

Mortarion's Herald wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This gives permission to use, for example, the not-currently-supplied Dreadnought weapon configs mentioned. Please stop telling people they're for casual games only. Yes, there's a new Dreadnought datasheet, but yes, you can use the old one for the options not supported in the new Codex. This Q&A tells you so.

I reference the question later on about using Legacy units when playing.

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

Can you use them? Of course, with permission from your opponent or the TO of the event. Otherwise you need to use the most up to date datasheets. This is why I say that they've made the rules for using them in casual play in mind, where people are less likely to not give you permission. Otherwise it's up to your opponent or any the governing official in a competitive/non-casual setting. But this won't stop John from going to his LGS on Wednesday to play with the RifleDread he already built.

Yeah I can see that. It's kind of like how in tradable card games when a new set comes out the old set is no longer legal for tournament play. You can still use the old cards in casual games but that's about it. So we just wait until GW decides to chime in one way or another, but for casual gaming simply talk to your group and come to a conclusion. I know my group is running it the way I mentioned earlier, but we don't play tournaments. Just casual pickup games or narrative campaigns.

Yeah totally. I completely get that tournaments and big events will go "Codex" only. But outside of that there's absolutely no reason for an argument with an opponent for using an Index entry (or list). It's all official stuff, don't sweat it.