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For a while now I've been building a True-Scale army, upscaling and adding more personality/dynamism to each mini. I'm jumping on the primaris bandwagon, as I like the look/dynamism of the minis and the potential they may have in gaming (not to mention the niggling concern that they may end up replacing "normal" marines eventually, which does lurk in the back of my mind, along with seemingly half of the internet).

So my question...make use of them as already truescale marines? Or...upscale the primaris to be larger in line with the scale of my upscaled "normal" marines?

Any thoughts welcome.

You should do some measurements and see exactly what would need converting before deciding.

On an another note, I will also be making a true scale marine army, albeit a 30k one. Have you thought about true scaling the vehicles? I'm personally working on a plan for a true scale rhino and am thinking about making a mould for it (changing the style of course, so it isn't IP theft), but am not sure I can justify it since I will only be making a few of them. Would you like a few true scale rhinos?

So I've measured against my current truescale minis, both SM and Custodes, and by my reckoning it's about another head taller than SMS but still slightly shorter than the demi-God custodes. I had a little experiment with some reivers, easy enough, however I do have concerns about damaging/misaligning the detail on the other primaris units, they are far more intricate than normal marines.

As for vehicles, I have seen a few examples of rhinos, usually using part kit part plasticard, others scratch built or using IG bits. I'm currently sitting on a rhino that's toward the back of my build queue while I think about how to do it. I have a land raider, and after deliberating on that one, I couldn't justify chopping up a £45 model for a small increase in size. With the mechanics for doors etc and without acquiring at least half of another land raider I concluded this job may be beyond my current skill level. Once I've done a rhino for practice I might jump in that deep.

I might be tempted by an upscaled rhino cast, that said if you're doing it for legion I'm not sure, I wasn't a fan of the old style at all. Would be very interested to see where you take it though.

Glad you like the idea! That said I'll be starting work on a big commission pretty soon (if all goes as planned) so that idea will have to wait. I need the money from the commission to buy all the necessary materials anyway. That said I'm definitely going to do it, and if you have any suggestions for the rhino design (I will call it metal box APC) do tell. I definitely want it to be different in some way from the real thing so it isn't IP theft.

The way I plan on making my true scale marines is to insert a mm thick square and then use green stuff to replicate any detail that's missing and make it look like one part.

I'm using Reivers and Custodes to represent true (or truer) scale Alpha Legion. I haven't got any Reivers yet, just started working in my first Custodes lord. That picture makes it look like Reivers are much shorter than Custodes. Is this correct? That middle Reiver looks like he's only the size of a regular GW marine?

I've trying my own upscaling the Rhino chassis project, specifically for a predator but there's no reason it can't be use as a Rhino or other Rhino chassis vehicle. Specifically doing this because the bloody thing was too small even for regular GW marines. Always bugged me how small the thing was and they look daft next to Primaris/Custodes models. Anyway, I'm playing with using Leman Russ side + tracks fixed to the outside of the base model and the whole chassis raised up. The way it's probably going to sit it looks kine of like the Repressor the way the chassis roof sticks up over the height of the tracks. With some plasticard to help build up the floor the internal compartment of the model increases from a width of 42mm to 70mm and it's height from about 35mm to somewhere around 50mm or just short of that. didn't plan on messing with the length although it's still not big enough really for Primaris, but it doesn't look half bad, at least not as a Predator. I was thinking about some of the FW tanks and the tracks they have (like that IG armoured carrier Dracosian or something) but buying one of them to chop and build out a rhino seems dumb, may as well just proxy at that point.

I'd love to get my hands on some relatively cheap treads that are longer than the Leman Russ treads to try and go for a longer model. I'm not a good enough builder yet though to go at it fully with plasticard. I'd rather chop bits up and re-purpose them right now.

That's the problem I think, it takes a lot of confidence and commitment to chop up such expensive models. Also with the FW resin I think it might be a little tough to chop. Would probably have to saw it. I think quite a few people use the Leman Russ tracks and plasticard to create the shape, then add rhino features after. For me that's a challenge for later.

Custodes for Alpha Legion could look great, nice detailing on the armour, what will you use for the helmets and shoulder pads though?

In the pic I posted, the centre reiver is the standard, unmodified GW size (that's why he's so short). That's approx the same height as my truescale marines, though depending on pose the heights do vary slightly. The custode has been truescaled also, and given the height of his helmet/plume will still stand taller than the primaris.

I have yet to get my hands on intercession etc, but I have a feeling they will be harder to add height to. Anyone tried yet.

I kind of hate to be this guy but, I always thought true scaling marines put them out of scale with every army in the game but imperial guard (who are way to big/bulky). It's a lot of work to make your army look nice but also completely out of whack with everyone you end up playing against.

So now some new marines come out and it's either a massive amount of even more work to convert all the new guys to be in scale with your old army (which, again, is out of scale with the rest of the game) or you have guys that would be in scale with the normal models but are now out of scale with your conversions.

Hilarious.

 Lance845 wrote:
I kind of hate to be this guy but, I always thought true scaling marines put them out of scale with every army in the game but imperial guard (who are way to big/bulky). It's a lot of work to make your army look nice but also completely out of whack with everyone you end up playing against.

So now some new marines come out and it's either a massive amount of even more work to convert all the new guys to be in scale with your old army (which, again, is out of scale with the rest of the game) or you have guys that would be in scale with the normal models but are now out of scale with your conversions.

Hilarious.

I kinda hate to be this guy, but if you really hate to be that guy, you would have scrolled on past, not posted.

Your opinion is fair, but it's yours. This is a discussion on what might work with the new additions to the SM army, which for the first time ever are actually close to proportionate, but not to those who have already added proportion to the old SM minis. If you have nothing to add, you aren't really needed in the thread.

People truescale for a very simple reason: they want their two and a half metre super warriors in power armour to actually look more intimidating than flashlight wielding, cardboard armoured mortals. Having the other guys models literaly looking up to them makes it even better.

Rhinos look out of whack compared to infantry, they are hilariously tiny.

Nicely put Power Elephant.

Power Elephant wrote:
People truescale for a very simple reason: they want their two and a half metre super warriors in power armour to actually look more intimidating than flashlight wielding, cardboard armoured mortals. Having the other guys models literaly looking up to them makes it even better.

Rhinos look out of whack compared to infantry, they are hilariously tiny.

Oh I have been in enough discussions about true scale. I understand that what your looking for is actually true proportion. (except for the guard. Again.. guard are some kind of gorilla people). It just seems so odd to attack the problem by going after a thing that is not causing the problem. Fix guard. Fix vehicles. I mean... the conversions usually look good, so kudos to that.

The issue there is, none of us are in the position to fix guard (and may not want to since i/we may not play with them). As humans they are the only point of reference for scale against superhuman space marines, and thus the only remaining thing that is within the collectors control is to change the size of the marine. So unless GW do a re-release of guard, making them smaller (and this would be as you said hilarious, knocking our true-scale further out) these are people creative enough to question, and willing enough to put the effort in to change what GW won't.

To address the other bit and this may be just my opinion. You say "normal" space marines aren't the problem, so why address that? Lance, have you seen people's attempts to overlay an image of the human anatomy over space marine armour? It's all over the place. Frankly they would look ridiculous without armour. But to be fair it is all fiction, I used to ignore it and just paint the models.

I get your point, it's a pain in the ass, and to many might seem a waste of time or effort. To those interested it actually it can be quite enjoyable, satisfying and creative. By chopping the models you do gain a lot of poses and dynamism not achievable with what comes out of the box.

So what would you change if not the marines?

I've always wanted to see some truescale-esque Orks, that'd be awesome!

I very much doubt GW would shrink their IG, if anything they'd make them slightly taller, though it'd be nice if they were a little leaner. I dunno if the newer human models are the same size as the old ones but we can all see SM;s getting bigger over time. I think there's been like 2 size jumps since I first got interested in the hobby and that's not counting the new Primaris and Plague Marines (PM I guess count as the third leap in size for non-primaris marines). GW seems to be on a course of making their infantry larger.

But they've done nothing for tanks. I dunno how other people feel but I think that flyers look better than tanks. They tend to be larger models, even where a particular flyer might actually be the same size as a particular tank the flyer model looks bigger. They seem to look better against infantry too, at least the ones I've seen do (I had a long hiatus from the game beginning before flyers became a thing and I haven't gamed much since getting back into the hobby). I'd like to see the tanks made bigger. But until then we can work around it with custom work.

There's a bit of an issue with truescale armies vs regular GW armies, but then there's a problem with the old mid-ninties models and the current range. Old marines a refreakin tiny. I have some old metal chaos termies are they're hilariously small. The contemporary marines that go with look like their growth hormones failed or they got the squat DNA by mistake! But nobody is telling the guy who's been playing with the same army for two decades that his army looks funny now compared to the larger models of today. The hobby is about imagination, this means suspending your disbelief for models on the table. What's important is how your own army looks and whether or not you enjoy it. Another comparison might be one expertly painted army next to one table-top level average paint job army. They clearly look different but who cares? So long as our armies are internally consistent and we enjoy them that's what matters.

I'm glad that Custodes is truescaled, I got a little worried for a moment! So what I've done for my first model (got the idea from a guy on Reddit) is take the Custodes, filed off all the iconography, cut the eagle heads off the back of the neck armour, filed the wings off (the body feathers actually look like scales when you leave them out of context once the rest of the eagles are gone). I threw on a couple of AL Headhunter shoulder pads (using those throughout my army) and one of the 30k AL heads from the conversion kit. I'm waiting on more bits right now, including a head plume and some drake scale tabards.

It's looking ok right now but it's a bit short on bling for a chaos lord! I intend to add some FW transfers to him too, including one on his cloak but I need to get him finished and painted before I get to that stage.

I've spent some time planning this out in my head (what to use for what etc). Primaris in Gravis armour (Interceptors and Aggressors) should make suitable terminators, you can use Intercessors and Reivers as regular power armoured guys (I'm using Reivers for their aesthetic but prob not Intercessors). I might throw in some converted Centurions for Obilts too, they should look ok next to the AL Primaris models (they should be bigger than them but not so much so that they seem too large).

I've got some Genestealer Cultists models re-purpose as chaos cultists. Next to the, the AL Custodes looks huge. But that's fine for me, that was kind of the point, Al are meant to be large even for marines. Interestingly the Genestealer cult Primus model is a fair bit taller than the neophytes themselves. I guess he's bigger due to having stronger Tyranid DNA or something but he looks interesting in between the short, regular size humans and the towering Custodes model. I guess he's started to assimilate some AL DNA into himself already!

Plodmarine wrote:
The issue there is, none of us are in the position to fix guard (and may not want to since i/we may not play with them). As humans they are the only point of reference for scale against superhuman space marines, and thus the only remaining thing that is within the collectors control is to change the size of the marine. So unless GW do a re-release of guard, making them smaller (and this would be as you said hilarious, knocking our true-scale further out) these are people creative enough to question, and willing enough to put the effort in to change what GW won't.

To address the other bit and this may be just my opinion. You say "normal" space marines aren't the problem, so why address that? Lance, have you seen people's attempts to overlay an image of the human anatomy over space marine armour? It's all over the place. Frankly they would look ridiculous without armour. But to be fair it is all fiction, I used to ignore it and just paint the models.

I get your point, it's a pain in the ass, and to many might seem a waste of time or effort. To those interested it actually it can be quite enjoyable, satisfying and creative. By chopping the models you do gain a lot of poses and dynamism not achievable with what comes out of the box.

So what would you change if not the marines?

Yes. Space marine anatomy is a work of pure insanity. Like.... what are their hips attached to? Where the hell are their hands? SM armor makes anything even remotely proportionate just impossible.

The bigger issues isn't so much that space marine anatomy is so out of whack (it is, but it's so inconsistent in every piece of art and model that there is no actual basis to base a "true scale" on) but those incredibly bizzare abhumans that are the space marines are in perfect proportion to an ork. And a hormagaunt. And the eldar (who are taller then normal human but also have the correct proportion to their arms and legs) and Necrons. To place "true scale" marines on the table against anything but equally "true scale marines" makes the rest of the game worse.

I am not against enjoying the conversions btw. I love doing conversions. It's the best. Like what you like. But the idea that it somehow improves the scale of the game is just false. It puts a higher % of the game out of proportion than leaving them as is. Suddenly SM tower over all those things that humanity had to breed them for just to be on equal ground. Humanity by itself is weak and small in a universe of super powerful biology. It's only the drastic super human anatomy and the equipment they can use because of that anatomy that makes the SM able to go toe to toe with these other races. They shouldn't be towering over them.

So, do you convert up all your SM so they look better next to guard and wrong against everything else. Or do you leave them as is so they stay correct against everything but guard and look at the guard as weird elephant men sent to war?

This is just my stance against that one argument btw. If your whole thing is "Man it's fun to do some conversions and they look neat!" then sure. But the argument that it's a more accurate scale for the game is just nonsense.

I'm a fan of the old true scale projects (and even attempted my own for a while) and primaris marines got me (to a very limited degree) back into 40k modelling after a few years off.

That said.. I don't think you should extend the legs on the primaris as they're proportional as is. Your reivers look too extended IMO with the inserts and the legs look too long compared to the rest of the models. YMMV but I'd use primaris as is height-wise and spend the time customizing them in other ways.

 warboss wrote:
I'm a fan of the old true scale projects (and even attempted my own for a while) and primaris marines got me (to a very limited degree) back into 40k modelling after a few years off.

That said.. I don't think you should extend the legs on the primaris as they're proportional as is. Your reivers look too extended IMO with the inserts and the legs look too long compared to the rest of the models. YMMV but I'd use primaris as is height-wise and spend the time customizing them in other ways.

You might be right there, I might have to knock them down a bit. Thank you for the feedback, and for essentially answering the initial question. There is something about the primaris marines, the look has massively improved the space marine aesthetic IMO so I can see them being a draw to more people. Congrats on coming back to 40k!

Bit late to the party but here's my penny

In my opinion primaris are just true scale marines in rules and minis.

I are the opinion that 28mm is about 1/56 scale, a 7 foot tall dude is just over 38mm tall.

Primaris marines are 38mm tall. If I remember right you were going for classic true scaling so your marines should be hitting this too (for upright poses)

In short I won't be making the primaris marines any taller they are the same height as normal marines, being taller is just Mechanicum propaganda

 JoeRugby wrote:
Bit late to the party but here's my penny

In my opinion primaris are just true scale marines in rules and minis.

I are the opinion that 28mm is about 1/56 scale, a 7 foot tall dude is just over 38mm tall.

Primaris marines are 38mm tall. If I remember right you were going for classic true scaling so your marines should be hitting this too (for upright poses)

In short I won't be making the primaris marines any taller they are the same height as normal marines, being taller is just Mechanicum propaganda

Well put. I'd have to double check but those reivers would likely be well over that. I had doubts on whether I'd do it it, the reivers were easy to upsize but looking at the other primaris armour it could be a nightmare...I might adopt your opinion and allow myself to be content with truescale marines outta the box, since GW finally went to the trouble.