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Hello friends,

My friend and I have a a question about Music of the Apocalypse rule. When a noise marine dies, it says it may an attack with a single ranged weapon or throw a grenade. My partner is wondering if the noise marines require that if they target a character, the character must be the closest visible unit when the noise marine dies. We wonder this because it will not be my friend's shooting phase when they die. Can you help us?

H

I would say following a strict reading of the rules, if it dies outside of the shooting phase, it can target a character. This is because the rules for targeting characters are NOT part of the rules for making a shooting attack, it's a seperate rule saying "A CHARACTER can only be chosen as a target in the Shooting phase if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting."

Can a Noisemarine which died in CC shoot an unit outside the CC?
Befor the FAQs i though they can, but know with the pistol madness, maybe they could not.

May I see this Frequently Asked Question answer?
I am curious because the Rule forcing to target the closest Unit is Pistol specific, and if a pistol is not being used it shouldn't matter...

 JinxDragon wrote:
May I see this Frequently Asked Question answer?
I am curious because the Rule forcing to target the closest Unit is Pistol specific, and if a pistol is not being used it shouldn't matter...

Index chaos FAQ page 2, 4th question from the bottom on the second column.

And the question is very specific about being slain within 1" and shooting a unit that is within 1".

They seem to not be restricted to the nearest unit in this case as having 2 units within 1" of the slain model is possible and not addressed in either question nor answer.

Scenario: 1 outlier noise marine with a model from enemy unit a on the left .8" from him and enemy unit b model in base contact on the right. Outlier is slain and wants to shoot unit a; normally pistol rules require him to shoot at unit b.

From that FAQ answer, however, they are restricted to shooting only pistols.

Yes, at a unit that is within 1" of themselves

Yeah, I would love it if my noise Marines could fire their sonic weapons at other targets when they die in close combat but that's not doable, pistols only if your fighting in melee.

I... well, no, I am not curious why they needed a Frequently Asked Question for this matter, nor am I surprised it is now being misapplied to create unwritten Restrictions....

Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol.

How does that go from 'Yes you can target a Unit within 1 inch, but only with a Pistol' to 'They can only ever use Pistols in Close Combat.'

Simple really. My logic followed as this.

You get to shoot immediately as if you were in the shooting phase.

If you were in close combat at any other time with any other situation you don't get to fire your plasma guns at target b while locked in cc with target a. Your not allowed to fire anything other than pistols while locked in close combat and you have to target the closest enemy (which normally is what your locked in cc with).

As such just because your dying after you do this out of turn shooting phase doesn't release the restrictions on what you can shoot with or who you can shoot at. So pistols only.

Now obviously if they died to an enemy shooting attack then they can use whatever weapon they want. I had a game earlier where my noise Marines charged a lone left over space marine from a squad who was left after being shot at. He threw a krak Grenade in overwatch, hit, and killed a noise marine, so I used the Symphony to throw my own Grenade back at him which killed him. It was a pretty epic / funny moment. The rest of the squad just kind of stopped and went "what just happened?" Since now they we're charging a dead squad, so the charge failed. Well, it technically succeeded but neither of us could decide how to handle that situation so we just let them stand there bewildered.

I'm going to have to disagree, as there is no such Restriction in 2. Choose Target:-
1) Line of Sight to the target is required
2) Target must be within Range of a Weapon
3) Target can not be within 1 inch of a friendly Model

I understand why you are drawing the conclusion you are, but I believe you are seeing a pattern where one does not exist.

The easiest way to get around the Restriction revoking permission to even select the Unit in the first place is always going to be a Pistol. As it is this Pistol creating the additional Targeting Restriction in question, it is very easy to conclude that such a Restriction must exist by default if all you ever see up to this point is Pistols. For a vast majority of Factions out there a Pistol will be the only way to get around this selection Restriction, after all. None of their Units have a niffy little Special Rule like this one, a unique piece of Wargear such as the Lash of Torment or any Stratagems that would grant a similar effect though I can't remember an example right now. This means most of the time, high 90's I would wager, the only way your going to Select the Unit to shoot is to be saddled with a Restriction on whom can be targeted... via evoking said Pistol to fire in the first place.

Should something come along that lacks the Pistols 'must target closest' requirements... what Rule would you quote to forces them to target the closest Unit?


Write to Game Workshop and ask if Lucius is forced to target the closest Unit if he is within 1 inch of an Enemy, that will answer this for sure.
The Lash of Torment, it is an Assault weapon found on Lucius the Eternal with the following Rules: This weapon can be fired within 1" of an enemy unit, and can target enemy units within 1" of friendly units.

Azuza001 wrote:
Yeah, I would love it if my noise Marines could fire their sonic weapons at other targets when they die in close combat but that's not doable, pistols only if your fighting in melee.

That is not stated anywhere.

If you are fighting in melee and your noise marine dies you can shoot any weapon; provided you target a unit that your marine is not within 1" thereof.

Two points people should keep in consideration concerning that answer:
1) The only Ranged Weapon carried by a Noise Marine, with permission to target enemy within 1 inch of a Friendly, is a Bolt Pistol
2) A pure yes / no answer to that Frequently Asked Question would have unintended consequences:
. Yes - Would be used as justification to fire Any Weapon at an enemy within 1 inch
. No - Removes the ability to fire even the Bolt Pistol at an enemy target within 1 inch

I apologize, I thought it said in the rules "like it was in the shooting phase" , it does not. That means a lot and I think breaks the game a bit if you don't do it that way.

Diving into music of the apocalypse in general opens up a lot of questions.

For example, if it's not done like it was in the shooting phase you could charge a squad, lose 4 noise marines to close combat, then have them shoot at a charecter because the targeting rules state you cant target a charecter in the shooting phase, but your not in the shooting phase so commander Billy is a target able choice. This opens up a ton of issues.

I don't think this is RAI, but concede it's RAW. I think people should talk to their gaming groups and decide on how to deal with this, in my group we are keeping it as if it were the shooting phase. It's just much more fair.

Not only does it open up questions like that, but we get answers back like this:

Q: If a Noise Marine is slain in the Fight phase, and he uses
his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot an Imperium
unit and subsequently rolls a 6+ to hit, does the Death to the
False Emperor ability then grant him an extra attack with that
weapon, even though it’s a ranged weapon?
A: Yes. In this situation, make an extra hit roll against
the target on a hit roll of 6+.

They fully intend for this ability to function the way it does, having acknowledged that it triggers similar 'When attacking in the Fight Phase' Rules.
I am with you that it really should be Restricted, the very least treating it as if it was the Shooting Phase, but I can't conclude that is what the Authors want....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about this for an insane situation:
Noise Marine with a Blastmaster dies in combat
Targets a Character 20 inches away
Selects 'Varied Frequency' and rolls 6 on the random number of attacks
Each attack rolls a 6, generating 6 additional attacks
Each extra attack rolls a 6... doesn't do anything, just happens

His opponent leaves the table, suspecting loaded dice!

That's insane. It's a shooting attack, why would it?...

Bah, I don't get it. It's like they are trying to make my emporers children broken lol. We don't need to be stronger, we have arguably one of the best troop options out there with noise Marines, our deamon prince can whoop a khorne deamon prince in cc, and our marines always go first in cc, or at worse take turns. We already are awesome before the Symphony starts, that just makes us stronger and allowing us to fire blast masters in cc at enemy Chrs before we die is plain silly. But if that's what they want. . . .

Agreed, the bare minimal that Rule needs is a 'as if it was the Shooting Phase...'
If it makes you feel better, it does prevent us from applying 'Shooting Phase' buffs to the shot as well.

Right but doesn't that mean we get the assault buffs instead? So dark apostles give us reroll on all failed hits? Again this leads to really silly stuff that is easy to fix.

Depends on how the buff is worded, but if it says something along the lines of 'attacks during the Fight Phase' then it becomes very difficult to argue otherwise. The fact this entire thing not only could have been fixed easily but was made all the worse by the answer provided is priceless to me. The only thing that could make it better is for someone to ask 'does this mean I can target a character whom is not the closest Model?' and for Game Workshop to write back with "No." Just that... no explanation as to why the answer for X would be yes but for Y it would be no.

The bit that make me smile the most, as I wait in schadenfreude for it to happen, is that Game Workshop was fond of similar 'vague answers' in the past.

Well perhaps this will be actually addressed in a faq by someone other than a random reply monkey that has an idea what this will mean in the long run.

Personally when I look at a rule that's in question I look at both sides so I can see how the rulings can be effected if someone plays them out to the end of the process. Again as we agree this is something that's should easily be one way "like it was the shooting phase, so all shooting phase rules apply to this attack" vs the other "the attack applies all rules from the current phase to the attack". I mean this leads to noise Marines throwing grenades during psychic phases (go ahead, smite me, I dare ya, there is a nice looking Grey knight squad right there near me about to charge, I would love to toss 3 krak grenades at them during your turn), shooting random things during the shooting phase (an intended effect of the ability), and then once you charge in and kill a few more men, oh look, that Grey knight grand master who is fighting over there looks like he needs to be introduced to a bit of rock and roll 40k style (not the shooting phase so no shootings phase restrictions apply so sonic blasters and blast masters, crank it to 11!).

It's obvious which way this rule should fall. But until then I think I am going to paint little number 1-10 and then a big 11 on my blast masters for lol sake.

Well the way it's played at big tournaments (such as NOVA) is thusly:

If you are die during the shooting phase, you have to shoot as per normal shooting rules.

If you die in any other phase (psychic, assault, morale, etc) then all bets are off and you can target whoever you want with no restrictions, even if you are engaged in combat, etc

 JinxDragon wrote:
Two points people should keep in consideration concerning that answer:
1) The only Ranged Weapon carried by a Noise Marine, with permission to target enemy within 1 inch of a Friendly, is a Bolt Pistol
2) A pure yes / no answer to that Frequently Asked Question would have unintended consequences:
. Yes - Would be used as justification to fire Any Weapon at an enemy within 1 inch
. No - Removes the ability to fire even the Bolt Pistol at an enemy target within 1 inch

\

Per the latest Graia rules: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/12/forge-world-focus-graia-sep-12gw-homepage-post-4/

"Models in friendly Graia units within 6" of your Warlord can shoot with Assault and Rapid Fire weapons even if there are enemy units within 1" of their own unit, but only if they target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

Wow. So not only are we being given permission to fire Assault and Rapid Fire weapons while in close combat, like Noise Marines, but we are also told we must do so at the closest enemy unit. Which is the unit you are within 1" of. Shooting into their own close combat with Assault and Rapid Fire weapons, in other words. They are given permission to shoot models within 1" of friendly units too.

What this all means is that for Music of the Apocalypse to have allowed the same thing, it would have been written the same way. So we can confirm that they are not supposed to be able to fire into melee (except with pistols) but they still retain the ability to fire even if a unit is within 1" of them. So as long as the target of the attack is not locked in combat, they can blast it to pieces even if they are. They seem to stick to the shooting rules even in the assault phase.

Arkaine: you are correct in nearly all of your assertions, except using a properly worded rule(which is the same as the pistol rule) to refute jinx's expectations of what a yes/no answer would create. He is correct on that. If they had just said yes, then sonic blasters would have been able to fire at their killer's unit. The answer that they gave was exactly what you wrote long-form: noise marines can music at their killers within 1", but theyhave to use pistols. Firing at another unit was not addressed at all in question nor answer so we default to normal targeting rules.

 Arkaine wrote:

 JinxDragon wrote:
Two points people should keep in consideration concerning that answer:
1) The only Ranged Weapon carried by a Noise Marine, with permission to target enemy within 1 inch of a Friendly, is a Bolt Pistol
2) A pure yes / no answer to that Frequently Asked Question would have unintended consequences:
. Yes - Would be used as justification to fire Any Weapon at an enemy within 1 inch
. No - Removes the ability to fire even the Bolt Pistol at an enemy target within 1 inch

\

Per the latest Graia rules: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/12/forge-world-focus-graia-sep-12gw-homepage-post-4/

"Models in friendly Graia units within 6" of your Warlord can shoot with Assault and Rapid Fire weapons even if there are enemy units within 1" of their own unit, but only if they target the closest enemy unit. In such circumstances, the model can shoot even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

Wow. So not only are we being given permission to fire Assault and Rapid Fire weapons while in close combat, like Noise Marines, but we are also told we must do so at the closest enemy unit. Which is the unit you are within 1" of. Shooting into their own close combat with Assault and Rapid Fire weapons, in other words. They are given permission to shoot models within 1" of friendly units too.

What this all means is that for Music of the Apocalypse to have allowed the same thing, it would have been written the same way. So we can confirm that they are not supposed to be able to fire into melee (except with pistols) but they still retain the ability to fire even if a unit is within 1" of them. So as long as the target of the attack is not locked in combat, they can blast it to pieces even if they are. They seem to stick to the shooting rules even in the assault phase.

That's not necessarily the case as far as how it's worded. They may have decided to make it more clear on the graia, and it's a different model with different rules even if it does basically the same thing.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Arkaine: you are correct in nearly all of your assertions, except using a properly worded rule(which is the same as the pistol rule) to refute jinx's expectations of what a yes/no answer would create.

I was not refuting any of jinx's statements. Merely quoting someone does not mean you are refuting their position.