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Strike from the Shadow allows a Raven Guard infantry unit to be set up on the battlefield, after the first battle round but before the first turn begins.
Auspex Scan allows the controlling player to pick a unit, and then shoot at enemy unit that has been set up as reinforcements within 12" of controlling player's infantry unit.

The question is, does the Raven Guard unit being set up via Strike from the Shadows count as reinforcements?
I initially thought they do count as reinforcements, thus vulnerable to Auspex Scan.
However, the Reinforcement section in the Battle Primer(the basic free 40K rules) states that units set up "mid-turn" and during any kind of "phases" count as reinforcements.
But Strike from the Shadows set up takes place before any turn or phase begins.

Does this mean Raven Guard units set up using Strike from the Shadows do not count as reinforcements, thus making Auspex Scan useless against the said Raven Guard units?

Hmmmmm I would like some more people to have a think on this. Because i can see Both ways way of working here.

Its activated in the deployment rounds. The same time that Units are stated as being put in "deep strike" (reinforcements).

Teleport strike: "During deployment you can set this unit up in a Teleportarium chamber instead of placing them on the battlefield...."

SFTS: use this stratagem when you can set up a RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY unit during deployment. you can set the unit up in the shadows instead of placing it on the battlefield..."

The only difference is *when* they deploy. I personally think that the RG count as reinforcements for this. I have not faced this norcome across it in play before. BUT: Having for eg 6 Raven guard SM units setting up @ 9 inches and them *Not* being able to trigger a Auxspex scan off seems a little Op as it doesnt have a "counterplay" in the phase when SFTS Goes off.

They don't count, because they are being set up before the first turn begins.

They count.

There is no restriction in auspex scan as to when the reinforcements arrive or when auspex scan can be used other than units arriving as reinforcements.The default rule for reinforcements says it typically happens during the movement phase, but can happen in other phases.

So RAW they are an auspex scan target if they setup using that strategem to arrive as reinforcements.

blaktoof wrote:
They count.

There is no restriction in auspex scan as to when the reinforcements arrive or when auspex scan can be used other than units arriving as reinforcements.The default rule for reinforcements says it typically happens during the movement phase, but can happen in other phases.

So RAW they are an auspex scan target if they setup using that strategem to arrive as reinforcements.

Sorry, but you are wrong. There is a restriction in the rule. "Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements" Emphasis in red. The Rulebook states

REINFORCEMENTS
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases."

Again emphasis mine.

Reinforcements only occur during phases. Before the game is not a phase, so they can't by definition count as reinforcements. It's specifically worded to prevent them from auspexing units that deploy before the game starts.

Yeah it's not mid-turn, so they can't be classed as Reinforcements by that definition.

You are correct it does say other phases.

Under tactical reserves it says you set up units during deployment, any units not setup are reinforcements.

Further under the Strategem "Strike from the shadows". It calls out you use it before the first turn, but during the first battle round.

That time is past deployment, and if you look at p176 the battle round is broken down I to phases. If it said before the first battle round you would be correct, however RAW it calls out at the beginning of the first battle round. Which is the first players first turn, but falls within "phases".

Therefore RAW using that strategem is not deployment, and is reinforcements. It occurs during the game RAW not before. Unless the first battle round is not part of the game....

Or you can consider it as this question. The units are not deployed during any part of deployment. Under the matched play rules for tactical reserves are they reinforcements (arriving from tactical reserves) or were they deployed during deployment?

The start of a round is not part of the first turn of that round nor is it part of a phase of that round. See the side note on page 178 (i think) that tells you how to resolve sequences , it explicitly states that.

I was going to say that this is clearly a no... You can't shoot someone during deployment. However, having re-read the stratagems and reinforcements rules I'm now fairly sure it's a yes.

Raven Guard units using "Strike from the Shadows" are not set up during deployment. That makes them reinforcements, which makes them valid targets for Auspex Scan.

It's fluffy (Auspex scan literally describes detecting units lying in ambush!) and seems to be legal as well.

 Silentz wrote:
I was going to say that this is clearly a no... You can't shoot someone during deployment. However, having re-read the stratagems and reinforcements rules I'm now fairly sure it's a yes.

Raven Guard units using "Strike from the Shadows" are not set up during deployment. That makes them reinforcements, which makes them valid targets for Auspex Scan.

It's fluffy (Auspex scan literally describes detecting units lying in ambush!) and seems to be legal as well.

Except the rule for reinforcements clearly proves you are wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
I was going to say that this is clearly a no... You can't shoot someone during deployment. However, having re-read the stratagems and reinforcements rules I'm now fairly sure it's a yes.

Raven Guard units using "Strike from the Shadows" are not set up during deployment. That makes them reinforcements, which makes them valid targets for Auspex Scan.

It's fluffy (Auspex scan literally describes detecting units lying in ambush!) and seems to be legal as well.

Except the rule for reinforcements clearly proves you are wrong.

And the matched play rules for tactical reserves clearly groups use of this strategem into reinforcements as they are setup during the first battle round, which is during the game and past deployment.

The Auspex Scan stratagem lets you shoot at a unit that arrived from Reinforcements. It does not allow you to shoot at a unit that arrived from Reserves (unless it also arrived from Reinforcements).

Pg 177 of the rulebook defines Reinforcements as arriving mid-turn. The matched play rules for Reserves, don't contradict that, and aren't defining the term. For that, you need to see the actual Reinforcements section.

The Strike From the Shadows stratagem says you set up the unit before the first turn, which is not mid-turn.

SFtS is Reserves, but it is not Reinforcements. You cannot use Augury Scan to shoot at a unit set up via SFtS.

blaktoof wrote:
That time is past deployment, and if you look at p176 the battle round is broken down I to phases. If it said before the first battle round you would be correct, however RAW it calls out at the beginning of the first battle round. Which is the first players first turn, but falls within "phases".

How can this fall within the phases of the turn when this occurs before the first turn take place? If I am the RG's opponent and am going first, how can something that happens before my turn starts be part of my movement phase, which occurs after my turn starts?

Anything that is not setup during deployment is reinforcements. You are using a 7th edition idea of reserves.

In matched play you have units setting up during deployment, and units which are in tactical reserves and arrive after deployment as reinforcements.

Sfts happens before the first turn, but RAW during the first battle round- which is midgame. It's not pre game, it's not end game, the first battle round is during the actual game play.

Are the units deployed during deployment , or are they arriving during the game as reinforcements? The first battle round is during the game, and they are not set up during deployment. They are reinforcements in a matched play game rules as written.

The rules for reinforcements explicitly says they can only arrive in phases. Before the first turn is not a phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules for reinforcements explicitly says they can only arrive in phases. Before the first turn is not a phase.

Sfts does not give permission for it to count as deployment, and if it happens outside of deployment it is defined as reinforcements from the tactical reserves rule in matched play as there is no fruther requirement for when those tactical reserves arrive- only that they are not arrived at the deployment step which is true for sfts.

The reinforcements section never states the only arrive during phases, but if you want to apply that the result is simple.

Sfts cannot be used in matched play by the RAW. It is not deployment, making it reinforcements- but does not allow you to place an unit when reinforcements can arrive which is during phases if you read that as the only time reinforcements can arrive.

So RAW sfts does not work.

It is not reinfrocements, but it is reserves. They two are usually, but not always, the same thing. SFtS is not reinforcements, so Auspex Scan can't be used against it.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:
It is not reinfrocements, but it is reserves. They two are usually, but not always, the same thing.

Where are you getting that from? When I turn to the Reserves rule (BRB, p. 194), I see the following as the very first bolded sentence:

Reserves are forces which are not directly present at the start of an engagement but are available as reinforcements during battle.

Then, later, in the Tactical Reserves section of the Matched Play rules (BRB, p. 215), I see the following:

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements.

Given that the reinforcements rules are part of the core rules (BRB, p. 177), and the various reserve rules seem to modify them or refer to them, it seems like it would be the other way around -- not all reinforcements are reserves, but all reserves are reinforcements. Do you have a source for some reserves not being reinforcements?

No because "reinforcements" arrive mid-turn. Each player has a "turn" that makes up 1 battle round.

When they use Strike from the shadows they are placed on the table at the start of the first battle round but before the first turn.

So it is explicitly not arriving mid-turn, and as such it is not reinforcements. What were have here is a special rule which falls outside the guidelines of the main rule book.

As such they also do not follow any rules for Reinforcements only the rules of the Stratagem they are using. IE They can move and advance.

In short it's a special rule that basically represents infiltrated units that are on the table, but you cannot see until the game starts.

There is no actual rule that states reinforcements only arrive mid turn.

There is a rule that says:

"Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements"

If an unit uses SFTS did it get setup during deployment? No, they fall under units that do something instead of being setup during deployment so then SFTS is reinforcements.

At the start of the first battle round, is still in the first battle round and is mid game as it is not pre game or end game.

blaktoof wrote:
There is no actual rule that states reinforcements only arrive mid turn.

Yes there is. Page 177.

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases.

This means, by definition, it can't happen outside of a "phase", of which there are 6 defined on page 176, because it's not given permission to happen outside of a "phase".

Which doesn't anywhere say it can only happen mid phase.

And does not resolve the matched play issue that calls out that if a unit is not setup during deployment it is reinforcements, are units using SFTS setup during deployment? No.

Yeah, Reinforcements is nowhere saying that it can only happen in phases. Just that it can happen in phases.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yeah, Reinforcements is nowhere saying that it can only happen in phases. Just that it can happen in phases.

It says it typically happens at the end of movement phase, but can happen during other phases. Nowhere does it say that it happens or can happen outside of phases.

 doctortom wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yeah, Reinforcements is nowhere saying that it can only happen in phases. Just that it can happen in phases.

It says it typically happens at the end of movement phase, but can happen during other phases. Nowhere does it say that it happens or can happen outside of phases.

And again the matched play rules for tactical reserves specify anything setting up at a time instead of deployment are reinforcements.

Which anyone in the pro sfts is not reinforcements seems to ignore addressing.

blaktoof wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yeah, Reinforcements is nowhere saying that it can only happen in phases. Just that it can happen in phases.

It says it typically happens at the end of movement phase, but can happen during other phases. Nowhere does it say that it happens or can happen outside of phases.

And again the matched play rules for tactical reserves specify anything setting up at a time instead of deployment are reinforcements.

Which anyone in the pro sfts is not reinforcements seems to ignore addressing.

Nowhere under matched play rules does it say that anything not set up on the battlefield at the time of deployment are reinforcements.

Other than the first sentence of course.

"Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements."

The models are not setup during deployment and are definitely doing something else instead.

Hmm, I sadly agree RG can be shot by Auspex Scan. I just flipped thru the relevant sections and in all the places where some ability lets you deploy outside the deployment phase, there is nothing that says something to the effect of "Place this unit in Reinforcements." GW seems to use the undefined term 'Reinforcements' to mean anything not being deployed via the normal Deployment phase, thus RG units could be shot at.

Further, since this deployment is before the first turn, it is outside a phase, so you could Auspex Scan every RG unit entering within 12" if you had the CPs to do so.

But, given my new list is RG, I'd love to discover I'm wrong.

I agree with Blaktoof.