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Disclosure: I'm so new I haven't even finished painting a single model.

Premise:

Both the chapter tactics and stratagems make reference to the fact that if you are playing a successor chapter its acceptable to choose one that "best describes its character and fighting style."

Question(s):

Does this mean that, for my home brew chapter, I could make the White Scars my founding chapter but choose the Raven Guard tactic and the Ultra's Stratagem? Or would I have to be consistent?

Even if this is technically permissible how much rage/hate/frustration if I rolled into my first game planning on doing that?

StormLion wrote:
Disclosure: I'm so new I haven't even finished painting a single model.

Premise:

Both the chapter tactics and stratagems make reference to the fact that if you are playing a successor chapter its acceptable to choose one that "best describes its character and fighting style."

Question(s):

Does this mean that, for my home brew chapter, I could make the White Scars my founding chapter but choose the Raven Guard tactic and the Ultra's Stratagem? Or would I have to be consistent?

Even if this is technically permissible how much rage/hate/frustration if I rolled into my first game planning on doing that?

You could paint them as the most lore accurate and detailed Whitescars army imaginable, and you can use whatever tactic you want. The paintjob/lore of your army has less than zero relevance to what rules you use. You pick a keyword when writing down your army roster and it can be anything you want (barring the Chapter keywords that are actually restricted, like Deathwatch, Space Wolves etc), from ULTRAMARINES to BOB THE SPACE PONY'S LEGION OF SPARKLY UNICORN PEE.

Literally no-one reasonable would care. As long as you're not deliberately trying to deceive them (Like, you see their army, and only THEN suddenly are your dudes Salamanders), it's fine to run whatever you want.

The only thing you can't do is use a named character as a different <CHAPTER>, so if you want to benefit from their Auras you need to make your keyword match the named character's one. You can't give Bobby G the WHITESCARS keyword, but you can give the rest of your dudes the ULTRAMARINES keyword just fine.

When you make a home brew chapter all in means is you are painting your models however you want and pretending in your head that they are called whatever you decided to call them. It's all make believe fluff you do in your head for fun.

Mechanically you pick whatever tactic/strategem and give them that <CHAPTER> keyword.

In your example, you are playing Raven Guard. Your models are Raven Guard. They have the Raven Guard rules. They have the Raven Guard restrictions. If a rule says for whatever reason that Raven Guard get this special snowflake tank but cannot use this special snowflake tank then that is what you get.

Then you paint them orange, put a lion on their shoulder, and tell your opponent that they are the ""Savannah Stalkers" a successor of the White Scars specialized in ambush tactics so I am using Raven Guard rules."

If you were to paint them as White Scars, say, but wanted to play with Raven Guard tactics, you would simply note <Raven Guard> as the <CHAPTER> keyword and continue using the models as normal. This gives you the Raven Guard tactics, but does not allow you to use an Ultramarine-specific stratagem with them, as they do not have the <Ultramarines> chapter necessary to do so (you gave them <Raven Guard> ).

Outside of your list, you can call them anything you want, give named characters special nicknames, whatever. The list itself just needs to be consistent with the rules you're using.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

StormLion wrote:
Disclosure: I'm so new I haven't even finished painting a single model.

Premise:

Both the chapter tactics and stratagems make reference to the fact that if you are playing a successor chapter its acceptable to choose one that "best describes its character and fighting style."

Question(s):

Does this mean that, for my home brew chapter, I could make the White Scars my founding chapter but choose the Raven Guard tactic and the Ultra's Stratagem? Or would I have to be consistent?

Even if this is technically permissible how much rage/hate/frustration if I rolled into my first game planning on doing that?

You could paint them as the most lore accurate and detailed Whitescars army imaginable, and you can use whatever tactic you want. The paintjob/lore of your army has less than zero relevance to what rules you use. You pick a keyword when writing down your army roster and it can be anything you want (barring the Chapter keywords that are actually restricted, like Deathwatch, Space Wolves etc), from ULTRAMARINES to BOB THE SPACE PONY'S LEGION OF SPARKLY UNICORN PEE.

Literally no-one except the most petulant of manchildren would care. As long as you're not deliberately trying to deceive them (Like, you see their army, and only THEN suddenly are your dudes Salamanders), it's fine to run whatever you want.

The only thing you can't do is use a named character as a different <CHAPTER>, so if you want to benefit from their Auras you need to make your keyword match the named character's one. You can't give Bobby G the WHITESCARS keyword, but you can give the rest of your dudes the ULTRAMARINES keyword just fine.

Using my above example, You CAN use the Raven Guard characters. But people will appreciate if you do a little work on the model to make it look like a different character and you just give it a new fluff name. Mechanically, it's still the Raven Guard character since your still mechanically playing Raven Guard. But fluff wise you just made up some characters for your own chapter.

Thanks guys. What I'm getting from you guys, though, is tactics and stratagems have to be consistent? That's what I am most interested in. I can see how this could lead to power gaming/anger/confusion so I want to be clear before lock things down (I'm going to try and not change the tactics/strat each game).

I think the clear intent is that you're not mixing and matching.

That said, the Chapter Tactics page says that "If you are unsure of a Chapter's founding Chapter... choose a Tactic from the table..."

While the Stratagems page says that "If you are unsure of a Chapter's founding Chapter... choose one that best describes its character and fighting style." And then presumably you use the Stratagem associated with that Chapter although it doesn't say this explicitly.

So, RAW, I think you can mix and match.

Of course, RAW, the Tactics don't appear to do anything unless you're the founding Chapter, although the Stratagems rules go into what they mean by "use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter" in a way that makes clear they want you to substitute keywords. And you're not allowed to use the Chapter-specific Warlord Traits as a successor, and I think the same goes for Relics.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I think the clear intent is that you're not mixing and matching.

That said, the Chapter Tactics page says that "If you are unsure of a Chapter's founding Chapter... choose a Tactic from the table..."

While the Stratagems page says that "If you are unsure of a Chapter's founding Chapter... choose one that best describes its character and fighting style." And then presumably you use the Stratagem associated with that Chapter although it doesn't say this explicitly.

So, RAW, I think you can mix and match.

Of course, RAW, the Tactics don't appear to do anything unless you're the founding Chapter, although the Stratagems rules go into what they mean by "use the Stratagems of its founding Chapter" in a way that makes clear they want you to substitute keywords. And you're not allowed to use the Chapter-specific Warlord Traits as a successor, and I think the same goes for Relics.

Welcome to my problem.

I read both tactics and stratagems to say that if you are playing a successor you can either A) follow the founder's tactic/strat or B) choose the one that you think best fits you. In a way, I think this is fair since (in my limited understanding) successors/home brews lose out on specific characters. However, RAW does not seem to suggest it must be consistent. Each one says that, basically, a player can pick the one that best suits the style they are going for. The unclear part is, does picking a tactic from a chapter lock you in to the strat and vice versa. They are on separate pages and both say to either follow the successor or pick based upon preference.

My question is how this works with the FW chapters. Are you just kinda choosing which tactic to use?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My question is how this works with the FW chapters. Are you just kinda choosing which tactic to use?

I think that is cool. I mean, it clearly states for tactics "[i]f you are unsure of a Chapter's founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style." So I think independent of one another, a chapter can pick a tactic that best fits it irrespective of founding chapter. The question is does that pick lock you into a stratagem as well. Is it cause and effect or two independent motors.

StormLion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My question is how this works with the FW chapters. Are you just kinda choosing which tactic to use?

I think that is cool. I mean, it clearly states for tactics "[i]f you are unsure of a Chapter's founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style." So I think independent of one another, a chapter can pick a tactic that best fits it irrespective of founding chapter. The question is does that pick lock you into a stratagem as well. Is it cause and effect or two independent motors.

I'd say the intention is that a Salamanders successor chapter uses all the rules for the Salamanders. I can see that it would be nice to mix and match, but each set is balanced as a whole, and if you cherry-pick you can end up with something that's broken in either direction, good or bad.

FW chapters will probably receive an update at some point, but until then you should either use their parent chapters rules or, if that doesn't work (unknown heritage or doesn't fit the theme at all), pick the one most fitting.
Strategems won't work.

that being said I'm unsure what exactly you would achieve by mixing. Does the codex tell you to replace any instance of e.g. the "Salamanders" keyword with your successors chapter tactic, or does it tell you to run your successor chapter with the "Salamanders" keyword? If it's the first I can see how this might work, even if it was unintended, but if it's the later you will be locked to one Keyword, and that means one set of chapter specific rules.
Ok, just looked it up in my Codex, it says to pick a chapter tactic in the instance of CTs, and to pick a chapter for the Stategems. So if you want to argue hard "rules as written", you could probably say "I'm picking Chapter Tactics from the Iron Hands, but my Chapter is the Trogdors, with the TROGDOR keyword - and for the sake of Strategems I pick Salamanders". But the other side of the coin is that since you're going the extra-strict route, I'd argue that you then can't find a unit in your army to actually benefit from most of the stuff you "gain" that way since the CT says "IRON HANDS" units, and the Salamanders Strategem says "SALAMANDERS" while all your stuff is "TROGDORS". In addition you can't use any of the chapter specific Warlord traits nor do you have access to any of the chapter specific relics - again, they're asking for "IRON HANDS"/"SALAMANDERS", not "TROGDORS".

I'd suggest using just the chapter keywords that already exist. Call your guys Trogdors, but for any and all ingame purpose they're Salamanders with the chapter keyword of "SALAMANDERS" and all the bells and whistles that those have.

It lets you pick a different Chapter for Strategems? That's...odd, but I don't own the codex just yet. Maybe next week I will.

I'm more asking because you've got multiple Chapters with unknown founding and therefore it might not be clear. Obviously I wouldn't want to use anything BUT Raven Guard for Raptors, but when it comes to Minotaurs and Carcharodons and Exorcists, how do Character buffs work? IE If I decide they're all White Scars, would they gain bonuses from Khan (+1S on the charge) and would Khan gain bonuses from Asterion and Tyberos (+1S in general and reroll failed charges)?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It lets you pick a different Chapter for Strategems? That's...odd, but I don't own the codex just yet. Maybe next week I will.

I'm more asking because you've got multiple Chapters with unknown founding and therefore it might not be clear. Obviously I wouldn't want to use anything BUT Raven Guard for Raptors, but when it comes to Minotaurs and Carcharodons and Exorcists, how do Character buffs work? IE If I decide they're all White Scars, would they gain bonuses from Khan (+1S on the charge) and would Khan gain bonuses from Asterion and Tyberos (+1S in general and reroll failed charges)?

Well considering you can't make Asterion and Tyberos WHITE SCARS because they are named characters, it doesn't matter. But, if you decide all your dudes are White Scars, they get buffed by Khan.

Having read both I don't interpret as mix and match. Both ask you to either pick your founding chapter or if you don't know the one best suited to your fighting style.

My founding chapter can't be both imperial fists and ultramarines.

My fighting style likewise is the same I can't be both siege masters and pure codex

The two questions are identical so the answers must be the same

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It lets you pick a different Chapter for Strategems? That's...odd, but I don't own the codex just yet. Maybe next week I will.

I'm more asking because you've got multiple Chapters with unknown founding and therefore it might not be clear. Obviously I wouldn't want to use anything BUT Raven Guard for Raptors, but when it comes to Minotaurs and Carcharodons and Exorcists, how do Character buffs work? IE If I decide they're all White Scars, would they gain bonuses from Khan (+1S on the charge) and would Khan gain bonuses from Asterion and Tyberos (+1S in general and reroll failed charges)?

Well considering you can't make Asterion and Tyberos WHITE SCARS because they are named characters, it doesn't matter. But, if you decide all your dudes are White Scars, they get buffed by Khan.

I'm trying to see how similar it is to the previous edition with successor Chapters (like running the Howling Griffon Dread dude with Calgar, because they both drew from the same Tactics).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It lets you pick a different Chapter for Strategems? That's...odd, but I don't own the codex just yet. Maybe next week I will.

I'm more asking because you've got multiple Chapters with unknown founding and therefore it might not be clear. Obviously I wouldn't want to use anything BUT Raven Guard for Raptors, but when it comes to Minotaurs and Carcharodons and Exorcists, how do Character buffs work? IE If I decide they're all White Scars, would they gain bonuses from Khan (+1S on the charge) and would Khan gain bonuses from Asterion and Tyberos (+1S in general and reroll failed charges)?

Well considering you can't make Asterion and Tyberos WHITE SCARS because they are named characters, it doesn't matter. But, if you decide all your dudes are White Scars, they get buffed by Khan.

I'm trying to see how similar it is to the previous edition with successor Chapters (like running the Howling Griffon Dread dude with Calgar, because they both drew from the same Tactics).

Won't work anymore sadly.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It lets you pick a different Chapter for Strategems? That's...odd, but I don't own the codex just yet. Maybe next week I will.

I'm more asking because you've got multiple Chapters with unknown founding and therefore it might not be clear. Obviously I wouldn't want to use anything BUT Raven Guard for Raptors, but when it comes to Minotaurs and Carcharodons and Exorcists, how do Character buffs work? IE If I decide they're all White Scars, would they gain bonuses from Khan (+1S on the charge) and would Khan gain bonuses from Asterion and Tyberos (+1S in general and reroll failed charges)?

Well considering you can't make Asterion and Tyberos WHITE SCARS because they are named characters, it doesn't matter. But, if you decide all your dudes are White Scars, they get buffed by Khan.

I'm trying to see how similar it is to the previous edition with successor Chapters (like running the Howling Griffon Dread dude with Calgar, because they both drew from the same Tactics).

Won't work anymore sadly.

I'm going to get several opinions (including the community guys) but thanks for your relatively concise interpretation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm going to get several opinions (including the community guys) but thanks for your relatively concise interpretation.

It really isn't a matter of opinion. The buffs only affect things with the correct Chapter keyword. If you don't have it, you don't get the buff. Named characters have a locked in chapter keyword, you can't pick a new one for them. There is no way that Khan can buff Tyberos and vice versa. Khan will buff a "Captain" with White Scars picked for <CHAPTER> for sure, but can't ever buff Tyberos because he has the CARCHARODONS keyword.

U02dah4 wrote:
Having read both I don't interpret as mix and match. Both ask you to either pick your founding chapter or if you don't know the one best suited to your fighting style.

My founding chapter can't be both imperial fists and ultramarines.

My fighting style likewise is the same I can't be both siege masters and pure codex

The two questions are identical so the answers must be the same

I don't have any experience in the game, but from a purely logical/rhetorical/legalist standpoint, I don't know if any part of that is correct. I can very easy construct a scenario where my fighting style calls for deep strike ambushes as a tactic (Raven Guard), but I hate psykers so (abhore the witch) or, once in the fight, love brutal charges and follow born in the saddle. Just because the words are the same, doesn't mean you have to reach the same answer since the those answers result in different things. Both are independent of one another, on different pages, concerning different subjects.

I'm not saying I'm going to do this in a game, I'm not even saying I want to do this in a game, I'm honestly curious about this whole situation.

StormLion wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Having read both I don't interpret as mix and match. Both ask you to either pick your founding chapter or if you don't know the one best suited to your fighting style.

My founding chapter can't be both imperial fists and ultramarines.

My fighting style likewise is the same I can't be both siege masters and pure codex

The two questions are identical so the answers must be the same

I don't have any experience in the game, but from a purely logical/rhetorical/legalist standpoint, I don't know if any part of that is correct. I can very easy construct a scenario where my fighting style calls for deep strike ambushes as a tactic (Raven Guard), but I hate psykers so (abhore the witch) or, once in the fight, love brutal charges and follow born in the saddle. Just because the words are the same, doesn't mean you have to reach the same answer since the those answers result in different things. Both are independent of one another, on different pages, concerning different subjects.

I'm not saying I'm going to do this in a game, I'm not even saying I want to do this in a game, I'm honestly curious about this whole situation.

I can't find a definitive answer on this, but I can't find anything to indicate that the Chapter Tactics and Stratagem must match for Chapters of Unknown Origin. I'm thinking that it is intended to be that way because you are locked out of the chapter specific relics and characters. It's the bone that GW tossed those folks who decided to take the road less traveled.

I hope they FAQ it even if I never intend to try it.

Sorry for the necro.