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2017/08/10 22:58:48
Subject: Please help with a combat unit (limited vaguely by my fluff) (OP Changed)
Back in a previous edition, I liked my Inquisition Warband, a nice mix of an inquisitor with a few crusaders, a couple psykers and some DCA's and a couple other odds and sods that made a nice little power band. Unfortunately, this is now totally non-existant.
So I'm considering how to add a small inquisitor-led force into an AdMech army I'm thinking of making. I figure the inquisitor itself is actually a useful HQ, as it gives the poor-leadership skitarii a decent leadership buff. Also gives the option to add in some psychic powers and deny-the-witches.
So how would you put in a small detachment of the Inquisition?
I did consider a premade character, Greyfax or Hector Rex being the two I would probably choose (either one or both, not sure yet). However my gaming group commonly would avoid all named characters, due to them being a bit overpowered (this is a prejudice from back in the days of 4th edition, but seeing how rowboat and others are these days I can see why it's stuck around), and so I'm looking at the "best" loadouts for a standard inquisitor. Which is good in itself, as I can find a model and name the guy myself, which might be fun.
Edit: Weird extra question - I've read a couple "tacticas" and such that have mentioned FAQ'd changed to the index, such as Jokaero now being able to use transports and the Inquisitor being able to take both a ranged and a melee weapon (instead of before, when they could only take one or the other). I've also seen other posts that mention Errata 1.1 for some books.... except on the english games workshop site, there is only version 1.0 of each errata, and there's no mention of jokaero or the inquisitor change. Huh?
[spoiler]Edit 2 - I have now altered this post, as it seems inquisition alone is just awful these days, and so I've widened the search to any options that allow for a fun and effective (and characterful) combat squad.
I would love to be able to use a Taurox Prime, but that limits me to either Inquisition units or Tempestus units, and not sure either are worth the tax... Unless I literally just run a cheap inquisitor in order to get the Taurox, but that wont be very effective.
Something I am considering is an Immolator + Priest + 9xCrusaders, or maybe have 5xCrusaders and 4xArco-flagellants. Not sure how effective this may be though.
Spoiler:
Ok so this thread originally started with what is in the spoiler, however I have mostly changed the way I'm going about this now, but I didn't want to start a whole new seperate thread, so I'll put my new information in here instead. I spoilered the original thread topic so the first few responses in the thread make sense haha.
Basically, I have now come up with 4 different "units" that I kinda like, from the standpoint of being able to convert them up the way I'd like them and make up my own little "Heroic Counter-Strike Force" story for them. However I'd just like some feedback in whether or not any of them would actually be useful on the table, or if they would just be a waste of points and a hindrance.
They are:
1)
Immolator + Immolation Flamer
Priest + Eviscerator
5x Crusaders w/ Power Swords
Total = 235 points
2)
Repressor + Storm Bolter + 2xHeavy Flamer
Priest + Eviscerator
9x Crusaders w/ Power Swords
Total = 299 points
4)
Taurox Prime + Gatling + 2x autocannons
Tempestor Prime + Command Rod + Power Maul
Tempestus Command Squad x4 + 4 x Plasma Guns
Tempestus Scions x5 + Plasma Pistol + Power Maul + Plasma Gun x2 + Hot-Shot Lasgun
Total = 285 points
So 1 & 2 pretty much follow the same theme, and usage, of a shielded unit with the ability to get into the action where needed and either kill off a small squad or tarpit something for a couple turns. The main difference being the change to a larger sized transport so I could field more models in the squad. The immolater is a better tank, with a nice assault flamer weapon, but the repressor carries more guys. Priest giving them bonus attacks as per usual.
3 is basically the same theme, using the only other models in 40k that actually carry shields these days lol. I wouldn't field Bullgryn models, I have a cool conversion idea I would use, but its basically the same usage as the crusaders. They'd even have the same number of wounds as the 9 crusader squad, but less attacks (because the priest will only add 3 attacks to this unit, vs the 9 attacks he would give to the crusaders).
4 is different, and started out as just a way to get a Taurox Prime for that cool sounding 20-shot Gatling Cannon. I just wanted to see what a full Taurox Prime would cost me, loaded up with all the trimmings. PLasma guns seemed the best choice. Turned out to be cheaper than I expected, and I could easily make a cool looking squad and a fun Taurox conversion. Not sure about the longevity of the squad though, as they're basically just guards with 4+ saves I think. I would assume 1/2/3 would all last longer if attacked, but maybe 4 would output some serious damage.
Just for reference, the force this little squad is going into would be AdMech, so whichever niche the unit I choose fills I should be able to cover the rest with my other choices. I dunno if I'd struggle with hordes, but my main opponents are standard IG, blood angels and Tau, so hordes dont come up much.
Thanks for any help!
Ive moved this question to the army lists forum now, as I think it's more suitable for there as Im defining specific lists now. Thanks all
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2017/08/12 18:41:45
2017/08/11 02:03:36
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
From a competitive standpoint, you wouldn't. They're trash. None of their options are particularly notable, their psychic powers are mediocre, and their buffs are forgettable. Their statline is also really bad for what you pay. Even their leadership buff isn't much good. Skitarii leadership is low, but that's mitigated by running them in smaller squads anyway.
From a fluff standpoint, you probably wouldn't want to run them either. They've lost almost all of their interesting and flavourful wargear, including some basic essentials like power armour. They're at the absolute blandest that they've ever been, which is really sad, considering how awful their representation in the edition prior had been.
As for why you're not seeing much tactica presence from them lately, it's because even the most hardcore of us Inquisition fanboys have written them off pretty much entirely at this point. The consensus is pretty clear that everything is terribly weak and horrifically overcosted, while seriously lacking in synergy and coherency. GW couldn't have made the Inquisition less attractive as a faction if they tried (that said, I'm not entirely convinced that they didn't).
If you absolutely, positively have to take an Inquisitor, Greyfax is alright. Not great, but alright. If you're looking for psyker denial, the Culexus and Sisters of Silence will be more point efficient, more versatile, do more damage, and be far more durable, but Greyfax isn't entirely entirely incompetent as a character. She's probably worth less than what you pay for her, but she's not painfully bad.
2017/08/11 02:28:09
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
Fafnir wrote: From a competitive standpoint, you wouldn't. They're trash. None of their options are particularly notable, their psychic powers are mediocre, and their buffs are forgettable. Their statline is also really bad for what you pay. Even their leadership buff isn't much good. Skitarii leadership is low, but that's mitigated by running them in smaller squads anyway.
From a fluff standpoint, you probably wouldn't want to run them either. They've lost almost all of their interesting and flavourful wargear, including some basic essentials like power armour. They're at the absolute blandest that they've ever been, which is really sad, considering how awful their representation in the edition prior had been.
As for why you're not seeing much tactica presence from them lately, it's because even the most hardcore of us Inquisition fanboys have written them off pretty much entirely at this point. The consensus is pretty clear that everything is terribly weak and horrifically overcosted, while seriously lacking in synergy and coherency. GW couldn't have made the Inquisition less attractive as a faction if they tried (that said, I'm not entirely convinced that they didn't).
If you absolutely, positively have to take an Inquisitor, Greyfax is alright. Not great, but alright. If you're looking for psyker denial, the Culexus and Sisters of Silence will be more point efficient, more versatile, do more damage, and be far more durable, but Greyfax isn't entirely entirely incompetent as a character. She's probably worth less than what you pay for her, but she's not painfully bad.
Well to be honest, after a lot of research, the things I'd want to take I can't anymore anyway. Not in combination anyway. I have been looking closer at assassins though.
Something I did consider was the following:
Inquisitor in a Taurox Prime (Gatling + 2x Volley Guns) + a Temp.Command squad with 4x *insert useful weapon here*. Gives me like 30 anti-infantry shots from the Taurox, and then maybe some big anti-tank shots from the squad when deployed. All this is stupidly cheap... but not sure it fills a niche I need filling. And nothing can shoot without being deployed from the vehicle, and I dunno how deny works if the Inquisitor is in a vehicle...
I can only assume the Taurox Prime is so cheap because it can only be used by the Tempestus, and they all can deep strike anyway so it's not really needed. As an extra tank it's nice, but Admech has a lot of native shooting platforms anyway.
Maybe finding a squad of Melee or short range guys, and use the Prime+Squad as a counter-assault unit. But that means only tempestus units, or change to a different transport (and I can't see any that proved quite so much firepower for the price.)
So I think I may have to drop the Taurox idea, and the inquisitor. Shame. If only I could equip the Acolytes with something actually useful.
2017/08/11 03:12:30
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
Inquisitor auras and abilities cannot be used while embarked in a transport. Additionally, to use a Tempestus Command Squad, you'll need a Tempestor Prime, whose added cost exacerbates the already dubious expenditure for the Inquisitor.
The Taurox Prime is so cheap because... well, from a business point of view, it wasn't particularly good in the last edition and GW wants to make a quick buck. Inquisitors can definitely sit inside one, but there's just not a lot to be offered. There's no point in delivering something when what you're delivering isn't any good to begin with.
Simply put, Inquisition is trash, and the only way to properly develop them would be with a complete rewrite. If you have one that you really love, you can try and work around putting them in, but just know that using one is essentially a handicap.
To that extent, I run my Inquisitor as Greyfax (since there's no rules for power armour Inquisitors that aren't special characters anymore), and run him with zero support. If he does something, great. That psychic denial has managed to help win games before, even if it was overcosted and better done by other units. If he goes down the more likely route and does nothing and dies, then that's only an 85 point investment that I'm losing, and I can usually afford to run with that handicap in my meta and with the style of my list.
2017/08/11 04:20:29
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
Fafnir wrote: From a competitive standpoint, you wouldn't. They're trash. None of their options are particularly notable, their psychic powers are mediocre, and their buffs are forgettable. Their statline is also really bad for what you pay. Even their leadership buff isn't much good. Skitarii leadership is low, but that's mitigated by running them in smaller squads anyway.
From a fluff standpoint, you probably wouldn't want to run them either. They've lost almost all of their interesting and flavourful wargear, including some basic essentials like power armour. They're at the absolute blandest that they've ever been, which is really sad, considering how awful their representation in the edition prior had been.
As for why you're not seeing much tactica presence from them lately, it's because even the most hardcore of us Inquisition fanboys have written them off pretty much entirely at this point. The consensus is pretty clear that everything is terribly weak and horrifically overcosted, while seriously lacking in synergy and coherency. GW couldn't have made the Inquisition less attractive as a faction if they tried (that said, I'm not entirely convinced that they didn't).
If you absolutely, positively have to take an Inquisitor, Greyfax is alright. Not great, but alright. If you're looking for psyker denial, the Culexus and Sisters of Silence will be more point efficient, more versatile, do more damage, and be far more durable, but Greyfax isn't entirely entirely incompetent as a character. She's probably worth less than what you pay for her, but she's not painfully bad.
While I'm sure its heresy to the actual inquisition players, as a 8th returnee to guard, I wouldn't mind if all the inquisition troops just got rolled into the AM. Inquisitors are typically going to be using guard forces to do all the grunt work anyway, why not just build on that? Technically you can bring them anyway right now, but why wait for their own codex when they could just hang out with their guard bros, and operate as additional HQs and Elites?
It just looks like GW went a bit crazy with factions in 7th, and there's simply too many that are never going to be fully fleshed out. I mean, Scions have ONE box of infantry and a truck, and they were their own faction? That's just silly. Inquisition has what, 5 units? Custodes and Sisters of Silence are hardly any better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 04:21:15
2017/08/11 05:13:31
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
While I'm sure its heresy to the actual inquisition players, as a 8th returnee to guard, I wouldn't mind if all the inquisition troops just got rolled into the AM. Inquisitors are typically going to be using guard forces to do all the grunt work anyway, why not just build on that? Technically you can bring them anyway right now, but why wait for their own codex when they could just hang out with their guard bros, and operate as additional HQs and Elites?
It just looks like GW went a bit crazy with factions in 7th, and there's simply too many that are never going to be fully fleshed out. I mean, Scions have ONE box of infantry and a truck, and they were their own faction? That's just silly. Inquisition has what, 5 units? Custodes and Sisters of Silence are hardly any better.
If GW drops the ball on Inquisition, then I will begin seriously doubting their ability to judge the value of their IP.
I expect that Inquisition will get its own book, in the form of an Imperial Agents type codex later on, including assassins and so on.
Many people use assassins, and selling a book to them will make good sense.
GW just needs to relax on the conversion potential, and open up to hardcore modelers again.
Enough monopose push fit beginner BS.
If GW doesn't manage this, then they will be committed to the Hasbro-wannabe bizniz model,
and that will excise a good deal of the experienced hobbyists who - whether they know it or not - keep their boat afloat.
.
2017/08/11 06:14:34
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
While I'm sure its heresy to the actual inquisition players, as a 8th returnee to guard, I wouldn't mind if all the inquisition troops just got rolled into the AM. Inquisitors are typically going to be using guard forces to do all the grunt work anyway, why not just build on that? Technically you can bring them anyway right now, but why wait for their own codex when they could just hang out with their guard bros, and operate as additional HQs and Elites?
It just looks like GW went a bit crazy with factions in 7th, and there's simply too many that are never going to be fully fleshed out. I mean, Scions have ONE box of infantry and a truck, and they were their own faction? That's just silly. Inquisition has what, 5 units? Custodes and Sisters of Silence are hardly any better.
If GW drops the ball on Inquisition, then I will begin seriously doubting their ability to judge the value of their IP.
I expect that Inquisition will get its own book, in the form of an Imperial Agents type codex later on, including assassins and so on.
Many people use assassins, and selling a book to them will make good sense.
GW just needs to relax on the conversion potential, and open up to hardcore modelers again.
Enough monopose push fit beginner BS.
If GW doesn't manage this, then they will be committed to the Hasbro-wannabe bizniz model,
and that will excise a good deal of the experienced hobbyists who - whether they know it or not - keep their boat afloat.
Oh I totally agree there. I don't like the units that have no weapon options, that's no fun at all.
But if Inquisition were just a subset of AM, would it really be so bad? They're all humans anyway. Does an inquisition army of only acolytes, death assassins, demonhosts, and orangutans really make sense?
In all the lore the inquisitors usually has his personal retinue as his little crew, and then calls in the guard or space marines to carry the majority of the mission. What if they were more like a Space Marine Chapter, just for the AM? So instead of being Cadian, you'd be Inquisition, and you'd have a subsection of the AM forces you could bring while maintaining your inquisition detachment abilities.
edit: or maybe make them like a deathwatch kill team, with the inquisitor as the special character and the retinue being an eclectic collection of oddly equipped troops as an elite unit, with the normal guard forces as the rest of the detachment to bulk it out.
edit2: Man, acolytes need a price drop. What the heck. Also they should be able to get carapace armor or something.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/11 06:20:20
2017/08/11 14:54:51
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
Oh I totally agree there. I don't like the units that have no weapon options, that's no fun at all.
But if Inquisition were just a subset of AM, would it really be so bad? They're all humans anyway. Does an inquisition army of only acolytes, death assassins, demonhosts, and orangutans really make sense?
In all the lore the inquisitors usually has his personal retinue as his little crew, and then calls in the guard or space marines to carry the majority of the mission. What if they were more like a Space Marine Chapter, just for the AM? So instead of being Cadian, you'd be Inquisition, and you'd have a subsection of the AM forces you could bring while maintaining your inquisition detachment abilities.
edit: or maybe make them like a deathwatch kill team, with the inquisitor as the special character and the retinue being an eclectic collection of oddly equipped troops as an elite unit, with the normal guard forces as the rest of the detachment to bulk it out.
edit2: Man, acolytes need a price drop. What the heck. Also they should be able to get carapace armor or something.
Nah, I can see where you are going there, but squeezing the I into the Imp Guard manual seems... wrong.
Like you say, Inquistors can/should call in resources to fulfill mission objectives,
but these are not limited to Imp Guard, after all,
and not to Mahweens either (though, I would expect them having a bit of trouble with NuMarines but this is beside the point).
Seems that they belong in their own book, as the brain bug to the rest of the appendages, along with other special operatives.
At least, this is what I would hope to see - maybe include SoS and Custodes and others in that same book.
And give them the conversion potential back at the same time.
Sure, run push fit marines front and center in the marines manual,
but let the advanced hobbyist have his retinues, converted ogryn gunslaves, and so on...
And yes, as of now, acolytes are wrecked - my own, can't run 'em WYSIWYG so what is the point...
.
2017/08/11 17:04:49
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
Jokero suck because they aren't characters, have a 5++ and only 2 wounds, daemon hoasts seem horrible, acolytes at 8 point gaurdsmen that can't take orders.
Inquisitors would be fun if they weren't bad for the points. Seriously, they only have a bloody 4+...
2017/08/11 17:46:34
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
Don't forget that Inquisitors only hit on a 3+ as well. Pretty mediocre considering both their point cost and their extensive training. Not having any access to an invulnerable save is also inexcusable, especially considering the armouries they should have access to.
The fact that they already cost more than a Canoness, who's already a mediocre at best, and are worse and more limited in almost every way, is absolutely insane.
Acolytes, who should be Inquisitors in training, are in an even more unbelievably worse spot.
2017/08/11 18:02:49
Subject: Inquisition/Inquisitor - How would you load one up?
Mainly what I wanted to do is add a bit of Character to my Admech list I'm creating, as Admech have a lot of cool units but very little character (due to them all being machines I guess haha). Pretty much the opposite of Orks in many ways, or at least the old orks before all the character got removed.
So I was going to have a single Inquisition unit, maybe in a cool vehicle (possibly converted), to run as a kind of command/counter squad. Hence, if this was still 6th/7th, I would have used an inquisitor + a mix of crusaders and deathcult and a couple jokaero maybe. Whatever worked.
However I can now see that the inquisitors have none of their old fun rules, no cool weapons like the old hellrifle, and none of the options. They can't even group up with crusaders easily, and I loved those guys! (Dunno why, just did)
I liked the Taurox Prime for the crazy killiness of it, but the only way I could use one is either with an Inquisitor+Acolytes, or with Tempestus troops. I could just have a Tempestus squad in there, I suppose.
Alternatively, I could run an Immolator with a Priest and a squad of Crusaders, and have them charge into the enemy. Convert the whole unit into something more Admech-y. It's a shame that the priests aren't very characterful either though, they pretty much just give +1 attacks and stand around. Could give him an eviscerator I guess, makes him 57 points and would at least have more use than the inquisitor seems to be!
This would mean I'd have an Immolator, plus a squad with 27 power sword attacks, and 9 wounds of 3++ saves, plus 3 eviscerator attacks on a model with 4 wounds and a 4++. All for about 230 points. ... Hmm.
Edit: Edited the original post so people realise I've expanded from just Inquisition units. The pool is now widened to any fun + effective and characterful unit that I can add in. I'm considering assassins too, but they're essentially solo operators anyway.
Edit 2: Forget that idea too. The Immolator only holds 6 people.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK so I have altered this thread to the more up to date question in the original post, but I'll put it here too for anyone who happens to just go for the "First Unread" button (like I usually do haha). I spoilered my previous responses in case anyone wanted to read them, but they're mostly irrelevant now.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/08/12 14:05:38
2017/08/12 14:04:54
Subject: Help with a combat unit (limited vaguely by my fluff) (OP Changed)
Basically, I have now come up with 4 different "units" that I kinda like, from the standpoint of being able to convert them up the way I'd like them and make up my own little "Heroic Counter-Strike Force" story for them. However I'd just like some feedback in whether or not any of them would actually be useful on the table, or if they would just be a waste of points and a hindrance.
They are:
1)
Immolator + Immolation Flamer
Priest + Eviscerator
5x Crusaders w/ Power Swords
Total = 235 points
2)
Repressor + Storm Bolter + 2xHeavy Flamer
Priest + Eviscerator
9x Crusaders w/ Power Swords
Total = 299 points
4)
Taurox Prime + Gatling + 2x autocannons
Tempestor Prime + Command Rod + Power Maul
Tempestus Command Squad x4 + 4 x Plasma Guns
Tempestus Scions x5 + Plasma Pistol + Power Maul + Plasma Gun x2 + Hot-Shot Lasgun
Total = 285 points
So 1 & 2 pretty much follow the same theme, and usage, of a shielded unit with the ability to get into the action where needed and either kill off a small squad or tarpit something for a couple turns. The main difference being the change to a larger sized transport so I could field more models in the squad. The immolater is a better tank, with a nice assault flamer weapon, but the repressor carries more guys. Priest giving them bonus attacks as per usual.
3 is basically the same theme, using the only other models in 40k that actually carry shields these days lol. I wouldn't field Bullgryn models, I have a cool conversion idea I would use, but its basically the same usage as the crusaders. They'd even have the same number of wounds as the 9 crusader squad, but less attacks (because the priest will only add 3 attacks to this unit, vs the 9 attacks he would give to the crusaders).
4 is different, and started out as just a way to get a Taurox Prime for that cool sounding 20-shot Gatling Cannon. I just wanted to see what a full Taurox Prime would cost me, loaded up with all the trimmings. PLasma guns seemed the best choice. Turned out to be cheaper than I expected, and I could easily make a cool looking squad and a fun Taurox conversion. Not sure about the longevity of the squad though, as they're basically just guards with 4+ saves I think. I would assume 1/2/3 would all last longer if attacked, but maybe 4 would output some serious damage.
Just for reference, the force this little squad is going into would be AdMech, so whichever niche the unit I choose fills I should be able to cover the rest with my other choices. I dunno if I'd struggle with hordes, but my main opponents are standard IG, blood angels and Tau, so hordes dont come up much.
Thanks for any help!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/12 16:29:49
