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 AegisGrimm wrote:
I actually believe a new movement should start where absolutely no one ever shows up to protest hate groups to show they are not worth the time and effort. They just end up standing in front of a public building shouting at no one, where passers-by simply walk faster to get away from them.

Most of their support and membership comes from the need to be recognized, even in a negative way, under the vastly incorrect belief that being recognized makes you important.

When you ignore the bully, the bully has free reign to do what he likes, and the bullied see no one standing up for them.

To be honest, I'm not sure the roots of the problems here is really about White Nationalism or Nazism.

It really feels like people are unable to listen to each other and their frustrations can't express in another way than violence. The fact people on the social media tend to entranch themselves by only following the news/trends only going with their beliefs doesn't help to solve this situation.

Conflict is also a way to communicate, though it has dire consequences. Recently, we have more and more "warlike" comments. Even the "jokes" on that matter are becoming more and more agressive.

Nothing good comes from it. As soon as you deny the other side to express their feelings and their own view of the situation, it's unavoidable that it becomes a conflict, sooner or later.

This event is just another example of what happens because of this whole situation. Indeed, I believe it's the result of something much, much deeper than that. People feel they aren't heard. They need it.

 Sarouan wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure the roots of the problems here is really about White Nationalism or Nazism.

It really feels like people are unable to listen to each other and their frustrations can't express in another way than violence. The fact people on the social media tend to entranch themselves by only following the news/trends only going with their beliefs doesn't help to solve this situation.

Conflict is also a way to communicate, though it has dire consequences. Recently, we have more and more "warlike" comments. Even the "jokes" on that matter are becoming more and more agressive.

Nothing good comes from it. As soon as you deny the other side to express their feelings and their own view of the situation, it's unavoidable that it becomes a conflict, sooner or later.

This event is just another example of what happens because of this whole situation. Indeed, I believe it's the result of something much, much deeper than that. People feel they aren't heard. They need it.

Indeed. I think this really originates in the massive name calling that happens on both sides(but originated with the left). The left has a super bad habit of calling anybody who disagrees with them anything from "bigot" to "nazi" and everything in between. Naturally right wingers are sick of this, and eventually resort to name calling themselves. It's just a vicious cycle. Then real Nazis and bigots start showing up and you have a real mess on your hands.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure the roots of the problems here is really about White Nationalism or Nazism.

It really feels like people are unable to listen to each other and their frustrations can't express in another way than violence. The fact people on the social media tend to entranch themselves by only following the news/trends only going with their beliefs doesn't help to solve this situation.

Conflict is also a way to communicate, though it has dire consequences. Recently, we have more and more "warlike" comments. Even the "jokes" on that matter are becoming more and more agressive.

Nothing good comes from it. As soon as you deny the other side to express their feelings and their own view of the situation, it's unavoidable that it becomes a conflict, sooner or later.

This event is just another example of what happens because of this whole situation. Indeed, I believe it's the result of something much, much deeper than that. People feel they aren't heard. They need it.

Indeed. I think this really originates in the massive name calling that happens on both sides(but originated with the left). The left has a super bad habit of calling anybody who disagrees with them anything from "bigot" to "nazi" and everything in between. Naturally right wingers are sick of this, and eventually resort to name calling themselves. It's just a vicious cycle. Then real Nazis and bigots start showing up and you have a real mess on your hands.

Those poor right wing bigoted Nazi's are sick of being called Nazi's and bigots. So naturally they have to run people over with cars.

The southerners never once did any name calling in over 200 years til the left correctly labeled them.

Except it's not actual Nazis and Bigots the left labels. They'll call people that just because they are white. They'll call people bigots just because you hold a viewpoint that doesn't align with theirs. They'll call you a chauvinist just because you are a guy. etc...

Grabbing Swastikas and T-shirts with Hitler slogans has to be one of the worst ways of getting people to stop calling you racist ever.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except it's not actual Nazis and Bigots the left labels. They'll call people that just because they are white. They'll call people bigots just because you hold a viewpoint that doesn't align with theirs. They'll call you a chauvinist just because you are a guy. etc...

Ever stop to think that those being called bigots are actually bigots? there is a lot of inherent racism around, ever stop and think that if you're called a bigot, you might have said or done something really bigoted?

Ever stop to think that those being called sexists are actually sexist? there is a lot of inherent sexism around, ever stop and think that if you're called a sexist, you might have said or done something really chauvinistic?

Yes the viewpoints of Nazi's, bigots and chauvinists don't align with the left, the real question is why are you associating and in bed with Nazi's, bigots and chauvinists who are aligned with the right?

In this topic, we have people saying that you're not allowed to call the actual Nazis Nazis. Take that as you will.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except it's not actual Nazis and Bigots the left labels. They'll call people that just because they are white. They'll call people bigots just because you hold a viewpoint that doesn't align with theirs. They'll call you a chauvinist just because you are a guy. etc...

This is the exact narrative used by people on the right to demonise anyone with left wing leanings.

 Spinner wrote:
In this topic, we have people saying that you're not allowed to call the actual Nazis Nazis. Take that as you will.

ya they're neo-nazi's, complete different than the "real" Nazi's. they only occupy various positions in the white house and elected positions, not like their in any sort of power position.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except it's not actual Nazis and Bigots the left labels. They'll call people that just because they are white. They'll call people bigots just because you hold a viewpoint that doesn't align with theirs. They'll call you a chauvinist just because you are a guy. etc...

This is the exact narrative used by people on the right to demonise anyone with left wing leanings.

Shhh you! It was the left that lead witch hunts to root out communist subversion in the 50s and destroyed lives with widespread labeling of those they disliked as "communists", tactics which still continue to this day!

 Peregrine wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
This argument is far closer to the Nazi ideal than anyone peacefully protesting yesterday. This is how Democracy dies.

JFC, are you serious? You have people marching around with swastika flags and Hitler quotes and you're honestly going to tell me that what's really close to the Nazi ideal is pointing out that free speech is not, and never has been, an absolute right?

It doesn't matter what they were advocating for they're allowed to March and espouse their political ideas as protected speech. Yelling fire in a crowded room where there is no actual fire or getting convicted of committing fraud has nothing to do with espousing political agendas or personal opinions which are protected speech. It doesn't matter if you're a proponent of white supremacy or black separatism or fascism or communism or libertarianism or a monarchist nobody else has the right to physically assault you because they don't like the ideas you're supporting and the State can't prosecute you because they think your ideas are bad or dangerous. If you can't see the horrible irony in demanding that an exception be made to allow people to physically assault people who endorse Nazism and for the State to be allowed to criminally prosecute people who are proponents of a white supremacist/Nazi political agenda then I humbly suggest you read up on Martin Niemoller he explains it very simply and very well.

Or, for that matter, "Jews", "Bolsheviks", "Untermenschen" and so on and so forth.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
In this topic, we have people saying that you're not allowed to call the actual Nazis Nazis. Take that as you will.

ya they're neo-nazi's, complete different than the "real" Nazi's. they only occupy various positions in the white house and elected positions, not like their in any sort of power position.

Are you claiming that there are currently neo-nazis sitting in local, state and federal elected offices in the USA? Who are they? What positions do they hold?

Prestor Jon wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
In this topic, we have people saying that you're not allowed to call the actual Nazis Nazis. Take that as you will.

ya they're neo-nazi's, complete different than the "real" Nazi's. they only occupy various positions in the white house and elected positions, not like their in any sort of power position.

Are you claiming that there are currently neo-nazis sitting in local, state and federal elected offices in the USA? Who are they? What positions do they hold?

Pretty positive he is referring to President Trump there.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except it's not actual Nazis and Bigots the left labels. They'll call people that just because they are white. They'll call people bigots just because you hold a viewpoint that doesn't align with theirs. They'll call you a chauvinist just because you are a guy. etc...

This is the exact narrative used by people on the right to demonise anyone with left wing leanings.

It's not a narrative. It's what happens. I hate nazis. They're straight up evil. I do not support this rally in Charlottesville one bit. But I've been lumped in with people who do support them for nothing more than not being a self-loathing white man.

I have explained to someone why I feel that abortion is the ending of a human life. I was called an anti-choice chauvinist. I'm not anti-choice, I just think the choice happens prior to conception.

I have explained why I voted for Romney instead of Obama, on the actual issues of the election that had nothing to do with race. I was called a racist for not voting for Obama.

This happens all the freaking time. It's not all people on the left, but it is a significant chunk of people who claim they stand for freedom of speech and expression. Yet they seem all too eager to stamp out anybody who opposes them. What they are doing is wrong. Reacting to this with violence is also wrong. Everybody at that rally, both sides, should be ashamed.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
In this topic, we have people saying that you're not allowed to call the actual Nazis Nazis. Take that as you will.

ya they're neo-nazi's, complete different than the "real" Nazi's. they only occupy various positions in the white house and elected positions, not like their in any sort of power position.

Are you claiming that there are currently neo-nazis sitting in local, state and federal elected offices in the USA? Who are they? What positions do they hold?

Pretty positive he is referring to President Trump there.

I wouldn't call Trump a neo-nazi ... but he probably is the neo-nazis' favourite president.

maybe both sides need to think about now, they ratchested the tension to point this happened after all.

maybe time to back off the hate.

 jhe90 wrote:
maybe both sides need to think about now, they ratchested the tension to point this happened after all.

maybe time to back off the hate.

Maybe we should hold the people actually killing people responsible for their actions?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except it's not actual Nazis and Bigots the left labels. They'll call people that just because they are white. They'll call people bigots just because you hold a viewpoint that doesn't align with theirs. They'll call you a chauvinist just because you are a guy. etc...

This is the exact narrative used by people on the right to demonise anyone with left wing leanings.

It's not a narrative. It's what happens. I hate nazis. They're straight up evil. I do not support this rally in Charlottesville one bit. But I've been lumped in with people who do support them for nothing more than not being a self-loathing white man.

I have explained to someone why I feel that abortion is the ending of a human life. I was called an anti-choice chauvinist. I'm not anti-choice, I just think the choice happens prior to conception.

I have explained why I voted for Romney instead of Obama, on the actual issues of the election. I was called a racist for not voting for Obama.

This happens all the freaking time. It's not all people on the left, but it is a significant chunk of people who claim they stand for freedom of speech and expression. Yet they seem all too eager to stamp out anybody who opposes them. What they are doing is wrong. Reacting to this with violence is also wrong. Everybody at that rally, both sides, should be ashamed.

I'm not denying for a second that there are a some people of any political persuasion who are too quick to condemn those with differing opinions. Can't you appreciate though, that when you said that this is what the left do, not this is what a small number of people, but the entirety of the left do, you're guilty of exactly what you accuse them of?

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
In this topic, we have people saying that you're not allowed to call the actual Nazis Nazis. Take that as you will.

ya they're neo-nazi's, complete different than the "real" Nazi's. they only occupy various positions in the white house and elected positions, not like their in any sort of power position.

Are you claiming that there are currently neo-nazis sitting in local, state and federal elected offices in the USA? Who are they? What positions do they hold?

Pretty positive he is referring to President Trump there.

yep, trump is fond of the Nazi salute after all. His cabinet could be full of them as well, he has hired some of the most morally reprehensible people he could find.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Everybody at that rally, both sides, should be ashamed.

No.

You're doing exactly what you claim people have been doing to you. You're saying that everyone who went there to protest Nazis went there to pick a fight, and should be just as ashamed as the people carting around a flag with a swastika on it. You're saying the people who were hit by a car driven by a white supremacist terrorist should be as ashamed as the driver of that car. You're saying that the people who stood up against racism should be as ashamed as the people calling for 'peaceful' ethnic cleansing and wondering if the genocide of black people would be 'wrong'.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
maybe both sides need to think about now, they ratchested the tension to point this happened after all.

maybe time to back off the hate.

Maybe we should hold the people actually killing people responsible for their actions?

As that sentiment is seemingly getting some traction here, I'm going to try and make sure to post it in the next terror attack thread. Surely it will go over well.

Nazism is a historical reality. But a lot of people don't really even believe in history as anything more than the simple idea that things happened before now. So you get the argument that because some people didn't take the actual Nazi party too seriously at some point before they took power that means if we, in a completely different time and place and culture, don't take anyone who calls themselves or - as is more often the case - is called by their political opponents by the term Nazi, that somehow not being committed to the idea that such a person is indeed a Nazi it means that Nazis will take over the United States - or, even more laughably, that this has already happened.

I don't think I've ever seen a clearer example of the echo chamber or bubble or whatever you want to call it than this kind of thinking. It's not only ahistorical; it's completely tautological.

Furthermore, it is 100% exactly what guys like Richard Spencer need from you - because there is no other reason for them to be taken seriously than to pretend they are something completely other than what they are: a fringe group of completely unsympathetic wannabes who fixate on controversial terms and iconography to demand undeserved attention.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I wouldn't call Trump a neo-nazi ... but he probably is the neo-nazis' favourite president.

Much more likely to be President Obama, who after all they could portray as the consumation of everything they believe is going wrong with America. With Trump, how can they say the system is rigged or complain that the country is being led by exactly the kind of person they hate and claim will destroy white people. With Trump, they can only gush about not being specifically called out. I mean, they read it as being in his favor. And they want the media to carry that same story, which it dutifully will. But that's not as electrifying as the guy in charge being living proof, in your own ignorant mind at least, for all your racist conspiracies.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
maybe both sides need to think about now, they ratchested the tension to point this happened after all.

maybe time to back off the hate.

Maybe we should hold the people actually killing people responsible for their actions?

As that sentiment is seemingly getting some traction here, I'm going to try and make sure to post it in the next terror attack thread. Surely it will go over well.

When has anyone argued that terrorists are not responsible for their actions? What people have argued is that the entire muslim population does not share some joint responsibility because a few fringe lunatics who happen to follow their religion decide to kill people.

They can't be actual Nazis because they lack that sweet 30's german mojo. Just like theres no communist in todays world.
They all dissapeared after the URSS disbanded, everybody knows that.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure the roots of the problems here is really about White Nationalism or Nazism.

It really feels like people are unable to listen to each other and their frustrations can't express in another way than violence. The fact people on the social media tend to entranch themselves by only following the news/trends only going with their beliefs doesn't help to solve this situation.

Conflict is also a way to communicate, though it has dire consequences. Recently, we have more and more "warlike" comments. Even the "jokes" on that matter are becoming more and more agressive.

Nothing good comes from it. As soon as you deny the other side to express their feelings and their own view of the situation, it's unavoidable that it becomes a conflict, sooner or later.

This event is just another example of what happens because of this whole situation. Indeed, I believe it's the result of something much, much deeper than that. People feel they aren't heard. They need it.

Indeed. I think this really originates in the massive name calling that happens on both sides(but originated with the left). The left has a super bad habit of calling anybody who disagrees with them anything from "bigot" to "nazi" and everything in between. Naturally right wingers are sick of this, and eventually resort to name calling themselves. It's just a vicious cycle. Then real Nazis and bigots start showing up and you have a real mess on your hands.

Oh, so the poor, poor right are just victims here? Didn't they called everybody that disagreed with them in the 60-70-80 hippies, or communists, or marxists? Please. Name calling is as old as the world. Trying to put the blame in left or right just shows your own personal bias and agenda.

Again, if we don't realize that Communists are already in power in our government today then we will be doomed to suffer a communist revolution here in America !

Isn't this what fools said about Bernie Sanders?

 Manchu wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I wouldn't call Trump a neo-nazi ... but he probably is the neo-nazis' favourite president.

Much more likely to be President Obama, who after all they could portray as the consumation of everything they believe is going wrong with America. With Trump, how can they say the system is rigged or complain that the country is being led by exactly the kind of person they hate and claim will destroy white people. With Trump, they can only gush about not being specifically called out. I mean, they read it as being in his favor. And they want the media to carry that same story, which it dutifully will. But that's not as electrifying as the guy in charge being living proof, in your own ignorant mind at least, for all your racist conspiracies.

Except with Trump they can still complain about other people and blame them for standing in Trump's way to excuse his and their ideas being gak. Just like Hitler didn't stop arguing that the Jews and communists and other people the Nazis thought were undesirable were not a threat after the Nazis had gained complete power.

A lot of Trumps hardcore supporters still think there is some kind of shadow government run by Clinton (or people like her) who are seeking to obstruct Trump and prevent him from doing what he said, rather than accept his promises are utter bs and unworkable.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
maybe both sides need to think about now, they ratchested the tension to point this happened after all.

maybe time to back off the hate.

Maybe we should hold the people actually killing people responsible for their actions?

As that sentiment is seemingly getting some traction here, I'm going to try and make sure to post it in the next terror attack thread. Surely it will go over well.

When has anyone argued that terrorists are not responsible for their actions? What people have argued is that the entire muslim population does not share some joint responsibility because a few fringe lunatics who happen to follow their religion decide to kill people.

I meant it more as a reply that I would try the sentiment of not holding people responsible, just that we would all have to have a good long think on our actions. Apologies for the confusion.

Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live.

Hitler

I can understand that. Doesn't mean I am a Nazi. Hell its pretty much fact in some countries. Good quote from Hitler I have to say for its true of this time frame.

I can also say with conviction that the Neo Nazi today are not a power being they never learned to how to march. Got that one from a book which also ring true.

Before this all went down did you all know there was a push to change US Army bases named after Confederate Generals to change their names? That the DoD literally told them to "Ef Off"?
Like Ft Brag, Ft Lee etc etc
Wonder if George Washington statue going to be an issue later down the road. How did we get stuck on Nazi's?

edit
Woke up one cup of coffee in me. Mug is missing...