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So I'm looking at the dreadknight and its base equipment is 2 fists. Now I want to run mine with a hammer. I give no craps about the fist.

By the wording in the index (I don't have the codex yet) You can "replaces one of its fists with a hammer" does this mean I have to buy a pair of fists and then the hammer? Despite only wanting the hammer?

As it's ready I think that's what I have to do, but curious on peoples opinions. Ideally I want to pay for the hammer and that's it. If i can;t do that then just the fist to upgrade to the hammer. I don't want a weapon I have no intention of using...

From page 222 of Index Imperium 1 (emphasis added):

If you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you can use the following lists to determine the total points cost of your army. Simply add together the points values of all your models, as well as the wargear they are equipped with, to determine your army’s total points value.

If you're not equipped with it, you don't pay for it.

I don't remember the exact wording of the entry so it depends on whether or not it's named "a pair of fists" or "two fists" in it's wargear entry and in the back of the points.

See this edition is kinda weird in that you decide what you want your model to have, and then tally up the points in the back of the book. Unfortunately, this means you gotta pay extra for base equipment that you may not even want.

If it's listed as a "pair of fists" in the entry AND in the back with the points (as in, one line with the name "Pair of (nemesis dread) fists"), then the Hammer would replace both fists and you only have to pay for the Hammer. However, if it's listed as "Two Fists" on the wargear section of the model's datasheet and there isn't an entry for "two fists" (like, specifically the name, not just counting the fist entry twice), then you can only replace one of them and have to pay for the other one.

Note that you should also double check the cost of the fists itself. Usually if a piece of wargear is only used by one model and/or if it's the basic equipment, it sometimes comes free. This is not universally true, and I do not have the GK list handy atm, but there is a chance the fists are simply free.

 Ghaz wrote:
From page 222 of Index Imperium 1 (emphasis added):

If you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you can use the following lists to determine the total points cost of your army. Simply add together the points values of all your models, as well as the wargear they are equipped with, to determine your army’s total points value.

If you're not equipped with it, you don't pay for it.

But if you have to replace something with it don't you have to pay for the base item first?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I don't remember the exact wording of the entry so it depends on whether or not it's named "a pair of fists" or "two fists" in it's wargear entry and in the back of the points.

See this edition is kinda weird in that you decide what you want your model to have, and then tally up the points in the back of the book. Unfortunately, this means you gotta pay extra for base equipment that you may not even want.

If it's listed as a "pair of fists" in the entry AND in the back with the points (as in, one line with the name "Pair of (nemesis dread) fists"), then the Hammer would replace both fists and you only have to pay for the Hammer. However, if it's listed as "Two Fists" on the wargear section of the model's datasheet and there isn't an entry for "two fists" (like, specifically the name, not just counting the fist entry twice), then you can only replace one of them and have to pay for the other one.

Note that you should also double check the cost of the fists itself. Usually if a piece of wargear is only used by one model and/or if it's the basic equipment, it sometimes comes free. This is not universally true, and I do not have the GK list handy atm, but there is a chance the fists are simply free.

The listing is basically fist X points/X points for pair.

His wording is a single model equipped with 2 fists.

Kingzerno wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From page 222 of Index Imperium 1 (emphasis added):

If you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you can use the following lists to determine the total points cost of your army. Simply add together the points values of all your models, as well as the wargear they are equipped with, to determine your army’s total points value.

If you're not equipped with it, you don't pay for it.

But if you have to replace something with it don't you have to pay for the base item first?

Again, if you're not equipped with it when you calculate your points you don't pay for it.

Kingzerno wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From page 222 of Index Imperium 1 (emphasis added):

If you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you can use the following lists to determine the total points cost of your army. Simply add together the points values of all your models, as well as the wargear they are equipped with, to determine your army’s total points value.

If you're not equipped with it, you don't pay for it.

But if you have to replace something with it don't you have to pay for the base item first?

No.

A Dreadknight comes stock with 2 fists. You then swap one of them for the Hammer.
You pay for the Dreadknight, one fist and one hammer, as that's what you're bringing to the table.

The pricing for equipment was fundamentally changed, it's a (mostly) fixed value per item. The stock loadout is no longer included in the model/unit price.

Kingzerno wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From page 222 of Index Imperium 1 (emphasis added):

If you are playing a matched play game, or a game that uses a points limit, you can use the following lists to determine the total points cost of your army. Simply add together the points values of all your models, as well as the wargear they are equipped with, to determine your army’s total points value.

If you're not equipped with it, you don't pay for it.

But if you have to replace something with it don't you have to pay for the base item first?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I don't remember the exact wording of the entry so it depends on whether or not it's named "a pair of fists" or "two fists" in it's wargear entry and in the back of the points.

See this edition is kinda weird in that you decide what you want your model to have, and then tally up the points in the back of the book. Unfortunately, this means you gotta pay extra for base equipment that you may not even want.

If it's listed as a "pair of fists" in the entry AND in the back with the points (as in, one line with the name "Pair of (nemesis dread) fists"), then the Hammer would replace both fists and you only have to pay for the Hammer. However, if it's listed as "Two Fists" on the wargear section of the model's datasheet and there isn't an entry for "two fists" (like, specifically the name, not just counting the fist entry twice), then you can only replace one of them and have to pay for the other one.

Note that you should also double check the cost of the fists itself. Usually if a piece of wargear is only used by one model and/or if it's the basic equipment, it sometimes comes free. This is not universally true, and I do not have the GK list handy atm, but there is a chance the fists are simply free.

The listing is basically fist X points/X points for pair.

His wording is a single model equipped with 2 fists.

If the wording is that he has two fists, but replaces one, then you still have one fist you gotta pay for. Tyranids have a weird thing where their weapons come as a pair so replacing one replaces the other and they only lists point costs for a pair (theirs is weird in that they have "Pairs" instead of "one or two"). If there's an separate entry for only 1 fist, then you'll still have to pay for the one fist you didn't replace (you still have it), but not the one you replaced.

You pay X for the first fist, and Y for the second fist.

If you decline to use the second fist, and use a hammer instead, you would, you would pay the cost Z of the hammer.

Your final point cost would be X+Z, not X+Y+Z.

(not including points as per rules)

In an interesting turn of events I posed this question to the official warhammer community group on fb. They said that whilst they can't give an official ruling (has to go to the rules team for an FAQ) they only pay for the equipment they use, so no weapon tax for an unused dreadfist...

The codex doesn't allow for hammers on the data sheet. The dreadnaught only has 1 CCW which is what you pay for + any weapon attached to the CCW.

Odd, the codex states you have two dreadfists, and you can replace one with a hammer or a sword

I have it in front of me.

I believe he's confusing the dreadNAUGHT with the dreadKNIGHT.

You are correct. That's what i get for surfing while watching football. Sorry.