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Raven Guard and Alpha Legion have stratagems that let you deep strike a unit "at the beginning of the first battle round but before the first turn begins". I can't tell if this is supposed to be before or after the players know for sure who's going first.

We're not given much instruction as to when we decide who goes first, as far as I can tell. The rules for this are in a section called "First Turn" within each mission description. It's weird if this means it is happening as the first turn starts -- it seems strange to start a player turn without knowing which player's turn it is. All we are told on p176 that "the mission you are playing will tell you which player" "takes the first turn in each battle round". This "First Turn" rule comes right after "Deployment" (which I think most players do take as describing what happens during a defined period of time), but it's not clear if there's any time between deployment and the first battle round. If both occur at the start of the first battle round but before the first turn, it is not clear how you determine which one happens first.

Plausibly the player who finished setting up first controls the timing, because they're the ones given the ability to choose to take the first or second turn without any sort of restriction on when they have to do this. On the other hand, the Seizing player is similarly given an ability to attempt to Seize and is not told to do this immediately.

This is very important because you would deploy your units very differently if you (1) know you're going first, (2) know you're going second, or (3) don't know the turn order.

We aren't given a time when exactly the determination of first turn is made. It's not part of a battle round so technically it happens sometime during deployment until the first battle round. Seize appears to happen at the same time as that determination.

You would have to dedicate units to that strategem prior to determination of who is going first, but place them after determination of who is going first due to them being placed during the first battle round.

blaktoof wrote:
We aren't given a time when exactly the determination of first turn is made. It's not part of a battle round so technically it happens sometime during deployment until the first battle round. Seize appears to happen at the same time as that determination.

You would have to dedicate units to that strategem prior to determination of who is going first, but place them after determination of who is going first due to them being placed during the first battle round.

'First Turn' (the section of the rules that tells us how to determine who has first turn) is listed separately from deployment, so I think we can logically conclude that determining first turn is separate (i.e. 'after') deployment has concluded. And as you can't really start the battle without knowing who has the first turn, I think we can logically conclude that determining who will take the first turn occurs before the first battle round.

Therefore, determining who will take the first turn (including what people are calling the attempt to 'seize') takes place after deployment but before the first battle round.

 yakface wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
We aren't given a time when exactly the determination of first turn is made. It's not part of a battle round so technically it happens sometime during deployment until the first battle round. Seize appears to happen at the same time as that determination.

You would have to dedicate units to that strategem prior to determination of who is going first, but place them after determination of who is going first due to them being placed during the first battle round.

'First Turn' (the section of the rules that tells us how to determine who has first turn) is listed separately from deployment, so I think we can logically conclude that determining first turn is separate (i.e. 'after') deployment has concluded. And as you can't really start the battle without knowing who has the first turn, I think we can logically conclude that determining who will take the first turn occurs before the first battle round.

Therefore, determining who will take the first turn (including what people are calling the attempt to 'seize') takes place after deployment but before the first battle round.

I agree with your logic, and believe the order of operations is laid out in order they are to be performed for a mission.

 yakface wrote:

'First Turn' (the section of the rules that tells us how to determine who has first turn) is listed separately from deployment, so I think we can logically conclude that determining first turn is separate (i.e. 'after') deployment has concluded. And as you can't really start the battle without knowing who has the first turn, I think we can logically conclude that determining who will take the first turn occurs before the first battle round.

Therefore, determining who will take the first turn (including what people are calling the attempt to 'seize') takes place after deployment but before the first battle round.

Wait, why can't we start the battle without knowing who has the first turn? Why can't this be determined during the first battle round but before the first turn begins? My issue is that I don't see any indication that there is such a thing as "after deployment but before the first battle round", whereas there clearly is a space of time in the first round before the first turn (because that's when these units set up, as well as Eldar Rangers).

Because you are not told to roll for first turn during the first battle round.

A battle round is defined as each players turn, who goes first each battle round cannot change, which is stated in the rules as written on p.176 " the same player always takes the first turn in each battle round."

If the same player goes first each battle round, the determination of that has to happen before the battle round.

Further if we don't read the sections of a mission as a sequence, the. Determination of first turn RAW happens at deployment after one player has deployed all of their units and the other player still has units to deploy. We could say that when seize happen isn't defined as happening immediately, but nothing states to roll seize later- and the player who finished setting up first could opt to go second which will result in no seize roll. Meaning the player has finished setting bup, the other player has not finished deployment and first turn is determined.

I think first turn is determined after deployment, and the mention of who finished setting up first is just referencing back to what happened in deployment.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Wait, why can't we start the battle without knowing who has the first turn? Why can't this be determined during the first battle round but before the first turn begins? My issue is that I don't see any indication that there is such a thing as "after deployment but before the first battle round", whereas there clearly is a space of time in the first round before the first turn (because that's when these units set up, as well as Eldar Rangers).

Because the rules don't state that determining who gets the first turn occurs at the start of the first battle round, but before the first player turn, so therefore it doesn't. The way the missions are structured, players intuitively follow the rules laid out in order (you start with picking your army, then you set up the battlefield, then you deploy, then you determine first turn). Nothing in those rules indicates that determining first turn isn't something that occurs before the battle and is instead somehow part of the first battle round.

The ONLY reason the 'space' exists between the start of the first battleround and the first player turn is because there are abilities written that specify they occur at that exact moment. Without those specific rules, that 'space' (as you put it), frankly wouldn't exist.

However, with all that said, none of this is concretely explained as well as it should be to prevent potential arguments, so it does definitely need to be answered via FAQ so that everyone knows for sure how GW intended for it to be played.