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It's simple.

Step one. First you pick a unit to shoot.

Then you pick the weapon/s to shoot for each model. Each model gets a simple choice at this point.

1 All their not grenade and not pistol guns.

2 All their pistols.

3 A grenade.

You don't pick one option and then switch to another. You pick one.

You cannot gain the benefit of pistols with grenades because the moment you pick pistols you have already not chosen a grenade in the same way that you have not chosen all your other guns. You are now locked into pistols.

Done.

Ok, i see your point. I have to choose a weapon, and cant switch later. I agree. But i still can throw a grenade in CC. I pick the grenade, because i can use it instead of firing any other weapon. The pistol can be fired in CC. The pistol is any other weapon.

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i see your point. I have to choose a weapon, and cant switch later. I agree. But i still can throw a grenade in CC. I pick the grenade, because i can use it instead of firing any other weapon. The pistol can be fired in CC. The pistol is any other weapon.

The pistol is indeed a "other weapon", but it is also the only weapon allowed by rules to shoot while within 1" of enemy models. You do not get to shoot grenades while in combat unless GW erratas grenades to work within 1"

Pistols only.

The whole point of the pistol rule is that other weapons are too dangerous to shoot within 1" because you'd harm one of your own models due to being too close.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that throwing a grenade within 1" might fall under harming your own models due to being to close.

In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

 Arkaine wrote:
In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

That's because their special rule allows them too? You might as well say "Some tau units hit overwatch on a 5+, therefore ALL UNITS DO."

from RAW it seems like it would work, but I'd Blame it on GW gakky rule writing and rule in favor of note being able to do so until an FAQ comes out...

p5freak wrote:
Ok, i see your point. I have to choose a weapon, and cant switch later. I agree. But i still can throw a grenade in CC. I pick the grenade, because i can use it instead of firing any other weapon. The pistol can be fired in CC. The pistol is any other weapon.

You can't throw a grenade in CC, because its a shooting attack and shooting attacks CANNOT TARGET A UNIT WITHIN 1". Only pistols have that special ability, and grenade lacks the special rule that pistols do.

So sure, you can choose to throw your grenade, instead of a pistol, at which point you fail to throw it because the enemy is within 1".

Agreed. If pistol and within 1" then you can shoot pistol. If you then nominate the grenades "use this instead of firing any other weapon" that also replaces all the special rules on said other weapon when using the Grenade. To insinuate otherwise would open the door to grenades using all other sorts of other weapons special rules. Are you suddenly going to supercharge that pistol then switch to Grenade to get 2 damage per wound but possibly "get hot" ? I didn't think so. Or I hope not.......

 argonak wrote:

You can't throw a grenade in CC, because its a shooting attack and shooting attacks CANNOT TARGET A UNIT WITHIN 1".

You are wrong. Where does it say that throwing a grenade is a shooting attack ? RAW : "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon."

A grenade is not shot, its thrown. The 1" restriction does not apply, its not a shooting attack.

p5freak wrote:

 argonak wrote:

You can't throw a grenade in CC, because its a shooting attack and shooting attacks CANNOT TARGET A UNIT WITHIN 1".

You are wrong. Where does it say that throwing a grenade is a shooting attack ? RAW : "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one instead of firing any other weapon."

A grenade is not shot, its thrown. The 1" restriction does not apply, its not a shooting attack.

Yes, it is a shooting attack, because it is a weapon type, found in the shooting rules. By your logic NO GUNS WHATSOEVER are shooting attacks, because hit dice are rolled for models, not units. And even then, you "roll hit dice", you don't shoot.

At this point, can we lock the thread please? p5freakMade is deliberately posting incorrect and false information, arguing in (what I hope to the Manperor of Mankind) bad faith, and wilfully choosing to ignore the facts.

I can't help but believe that you guys are doing it on purpose, it's pretty clear that you can't use a grenade in CC because of all the reasons mentioned earlier, at this point you just sound like those annoying people at the LGS who tells you they can do that because if you reaaally think too much about the wording of the rule it MAY imply that you can do that while you have five arguments against it, but they keep saying they're right with a sneaky smile and that's when you understand they're just TFG and they're never to be talked to again.

It's like this ridiculous argument where you can't target skimmers in CC because it doesn't have a base to measure it from. Well duh, use common sense. I know GW rules aren't written in the brightest of the manners but that doesn't mean EVERY rule is to be dissected to find a hidden meaning.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is a shooting attack, because it is a weapon type, found in the shooting rules.

Yes, the grenade is listed in the shooting rules. But a model doesnt shoot a grenade, it throws it.

p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, it is a shooting attack, because it is a weapon type, found in the shooting rules.

Yes, the grenade is listed in the shooting rules. But a model doesnt shoot a grenade, it throws it.

And since there are no functional rules for 'throwing', then a grenade does nothing.

 drone9 wrote:
To sum up:

Argument by BCB: Shooting is not allowed for units within 1’’ of an enemy unit. Only the rules for pistols explicitly grant an exception to this. Since the rules for grenades do not explicitly say so, when switching from pistol to grenade the general shooting rule takes precedence.

Argument by Gordon et al.: Grenades can be thrown instead of shooting any other weapon. A pistol qualifies as any other weapon. A pistol can be fired while within 1'' of an enemy unit. Therefor grenades can be used instead of firing a pistol while in CC.

They're both rationalized arguments.

When thinking of Rapid Fire/Assault/Heavy weaps, none of these have any clause and no one would argue their use in this case.

A Grenade says its eligible to be used if the unit is shooting. This may imply that even if 1 model used a pistol, the unit is shooting -> therefore the grenade can be used by 1 other model in the unit.

Grenades do not say they can be thrown within 1", and its very possible, but not for certain, that restriction takes precedent. So despite being eligible to be thrown/fired in its own right. The Unit (per Core shooting rules) has already been elected to Shoot, despite the 1" restriction in step 1 of the Shooting Phase.

But,

"[Step Two][Selecting Enemy Unit] Models cannot target enemy units that
are within 1" of friendly models – the risk
of hitting your own troops is too great."

"[Three] If a model has several
weapons, it can shoot all of them at the
same target, or it can shoot each at a
different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit
contains more than one model, they can
shoot at the same, or different targets as
you choose. In either case, declare how
you will split the shooting unit’s shots
before any dice are rolled, and resolve
all the shots against one target before
moving on to the next."

...I'm of the notion that you've picked the unit for shooting, but that when you choose the model to throw the pineapple, that grenadier cannot target enemy units within 1" of friendly models. However, there is nothing that I can think of to cite that says the grenadier could not throw the grenade at a 2nd enemy unit not within 1" of your unit: it's eligible to be activated as a weapon because the unit has been activated in the Shooting Phase as the grenade rules describe, but the grenade rules to not allow it to be thrown at the unit within 1".

 Arkaine wrote:
In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

"Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol."

This is from the Chaos Index FAQ. How are you interpreting it in the exact opposite way? Or reference where 'GW confirmed it.'

Mchaagen wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
In any case, Noise Marines can all throw their grenades as they die while in CC. GW confirmed it and their rule allows them to shoot within 1". Maybe you can dissect the wording of that rule to see what makes it different.

"Q: If a Noise Marine is slain whilst its unit is within 1" of an
enemy unit, can he use his Music of the Apocalypse ability to
shoot the unit that is within 1"?
A: Yes, but only with a Pistol."

This is from the Chaos Index FAQ. How are you interpreting it in the exact opposite way? Or reference where 'GW confirmed it.'

I'd say this shows that GW doesn't want any shenanigans with grenades when a model's unit is within 1" of an enemy unit.

 Overheal wrote:

 drone9 wrote:
To sum up:

Argument by BCB: Shooting is not allowed for units within 1’’ of an enemy unit. Only the rules for pistols explicitly grant an exception to this. Since the rules for grenades do not explicitly say so, when switching from pistol to grenade the general shooting rule takes precedence.

Argument by Gordon et al.: Grenades can be thrown instead of shooting any other weapon. A pistol qualifies as any other weapon. A pistol can be fired while within 1'' of an enemy unit. Therefor grenades can be used instead of firing a pistol while in CC.

They're both rationalized arguments.

Not quite.

One involves one Weapon Type invoking the special rules of another Weapon Type while processing its Attack, i.e. firing Grenades like a Pistol. Where do the Grenade Rules allow you to follow the special rules involved with another Weapon Type? Can I shoot a Grenade as Heavy 3 or Rapid Fire instead of using a Heavy Bolter or Boltgun? That is the premise behind using Grenades while within an inch of an enemy model.

I believe the Crazy Train is currently full, standing room only...

 Charistoph wrote:

 Overheal wrote:

 drone9 wrote:
To sum up:

Argument by BCB: Shooting is not allowed for units within 1’’ of an enemy unit. Only the rules for pistols explicitly grant an exception to this. Since the rules for grenades do not explicitly say so, when switching from pistol to grenade the general shooting rule takes precedence.

Argument by Gordon et al.: Grenades can be thrown instead of shooting any other weapon. A pistol qualifies as any other weapon. A pistol can be fired while within 1'' of an enemy unit. Therefor grenades can be used instead of firing a pistol while in CC.

They're both rationalized arguments.

Not quite.

One involves one Weapon Type invoking the special rules of another Weapon Type while processing its Attack, i.e. firing Grenades like a Pistol. Where do the Grenade Rules allow you to follow the special rules involved with another Weapon Type? Can I shoot a Grenade as Heavy 3 or Rapid Fire instead of using a Heavy Bolter or Boltgun? That is the premise behind using Grenades while within an inch of an enemy model.

but grenades are able to proc per their rule when their unit is eligible to shoot. Pistols being fired means the unit is shooting and is eligible to shoot. Because the unit is shooting grenades requirements are all lit, except that it can't target an enemy unit within 1" of friendly models.

It's not THAT crazy that one weapon can affect the functionality or usefulness of another weapon or attack: Markerligjts being a prime example as Heavy 1 ranged weapons that deal no damage, but that affect the shooting of friendly units. RAW I don't currently see how a model can't throw a grenade at a 2nd unit if it's already in a unit engaged in a close quarters pistol duel. It just says very plainly the grenade is eligible to be thrown if the unit is shooting.

Pistols don't ONLY have to be fired within 1". They can be fired at range. That's what the "or with all of it's other weapons" is about. When shooting at range.

Otherwise the 1" pistol rule is pointless. If you interpret it that way for the grenade, you'd have to interpret it that way for all since it says "all of it's other weapons" not "it's grenades".

There are essentially 2 separate rules for pistols:

1. Pistols can shoot within 1"

2. You can either fire pistols or all other weapons (obviously referring to being at range since pistols can still be shot at range, but no other weapons can be fired within 1").

These are 2 separate rules for pistols and 2 doesn't automatically apply when 1 is taking place.

 Overheal wrote:
but grenades are able to proc per their rule when their unit is eligible to shoot. Pistols being fired means the unit is shooting and is eligible to shoot. Because the unit is shooting grenades requirements are all lit, except that it can't target an enemy unit within 1" of friendly models.

No, they are not all lit. The exception that is in Grenades does not state that you choose another Weapon's restrictions in order to fire, but rather that Shooting the grenade takes any other Weapon's place. In addition, Pistols do not allow Grenades to be fired by the model when you select them to be fired.

In order to properly justify this, one of the following must be demonstrated:
1) One is allowed to switch Weapons during the process of Shooting, allowing the Pistol to grant its Shooting to another Ranged Weapon.
2) The Pistol may grant its ability to another Weapon Type.
3) A Ranged Weapon may take upon itself the Pistol's aspect to process.

None of these are in play. Allowing a Grenade not listed as a Pistol to fire as a Pistol is a deliberate obfuscation that relies on narrowly looking at one passage while ignoring the rest of the rules and adding a whole new set of rules to allow it in the meanwhile.

 Overheal wrote:
It's not THAT crazy that one weapon can affect the functionality or usefulness of another weapon or attack: Markerligjts being a prime example as Heavy 1 ranged weapons that deal no damage, but that affect the shooting of friendly units. RAW I don't currently see how a model can't throw a grenade at a 2nd unit if it's already in a unit engaged in a close quarters pistol duel. It just says very plainly the grenade is eligible to be thrown if the unit is shooting.

Markerlights have specific rules to affect other Weapons, where do Pistols state that other Weapons can be used at the same time in their place? Where do Grenades state they get to use another Weapon's profile or special rules?

Quite clearly, when you choose to Shoot the Pistol, one cannot Shoot the Grenade any more than one can shoot a Boltgun. The same would apply when one chooses to Shoot the Grenade, one cannot Shoot the Pistol or the Boltgun, or when one chooses to Shoot the Boltgun, one cannot choose the Shoot the Pistol or the Grenade. The rules covering Pistols and Grenades are quite clear in disallowing the other types to be in play when used.

So, NO, you cannot choose to Shoot a Grenade at the same time you can only Shoot a Pistol unless said Grenade is a Pistol type.

I agree that the RAI is that grenades cannot be used in CC. I also agree that the RAW is written in a way that allows them to be.

RAW is simply parsed thus:

Is your unit shooting? Then you may choose to "shoot" a grenade instead of whatever it is that you're shooting. Circumstances have very little bearing on the wording of the grenade rule. The only requisite of using a grenade is "Each time your unit shoots." How and why the unit is shooting is of no matter. Again, is the unit shooting? Then it may use a grenade. It really is quite simple.


Again, don't think that this is intended and would give my opponent a look of disdain as he chucked a grenade at the feet of his own troops.

What gives the grenade's "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one..." precedence over the pistol's "...it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons."?

 Ghaz wrote:
What gives the grenade's "Each time a unit shoots, a single model in the unit that is equipped with Grenades may throw one..." precedence over the pistol's "...it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons."?

Nothing. No rule is broken there. You're not shooting with your pistol, you're shooting with your grenade. Again, the grenade rule doesn't care if you're shooting a pistol or a heavy weapon or a titan cannon. The grenade rule simply cares that the unit is shooting. That is all. Is the UNIT shooting? Then you may use a grenade.

In fact, the Grenade rule would even supersede the firing within 1" of a model, I would argue. The grenade rule gives you permission to fire a grenade if your unit is shooting. That is the only prerequisite. It is supposed to be understood that you'll not be able to fire a grenade within 1" of enemy models. Unfortunately, they wrote the grenade rule in such a way that it can be, until it's FAQed. Opinion mine.

Yes, a rule is broken if you throw a grenade with the pistols as the rule says "... it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons..." It does not say "... it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) and a Grenade or with all of its other weapons and a Grenade..." The Pistol rule cares if you're using another type of weapon.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, a rule is broken if you throw a grenade with the pistols as the rule says "... it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons..." It does not say "... it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) and a Grenade or with all of its other weapons and a Grenade..." The Pistol rule cares if you're using another type of weapon.

I'm not using a pistol or any other weapon. I'm using a grenade. No rule is broken. It is not the Pistol rule that is allowing you to use grenades. It is the Grenade rule. The Pistol rule is activating the shooting of the unit, which activates the Grenade rule. Again, Grenades don't care what you're shooting. Only that you're shooting. You're focusing on the wrong rule. The Pistol rule actually has no bearing whatsoever on the Grenade rule itself.

Again, is the unit shooting (no matter what they're shooting)? There is no other qualifier to the Grenade rule than that question. If the answer to that question is yes, under any circumstances, then a grenade may be used.

Edit: Also, the rule you quoted is referring to MODELS whereas Grenades only care about the UNIT. If the UNIT is shooting, a model may use a grenade instead of any other weapon (in this case, a pistol).

A little late to the party here, but I was under the impression you could use Krak Grenades in melee (against vehicles and tanks) but not frag against anything. In hindsight, I have no basis for this, and am double checking the rules right now. However, I also assumed that using the krak grenade removed a models melee, not its shooting a pistol in the shooting phase. Will report back once I reread the rules. I fear I'm mixing my edition ups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So just read the rules. BaconCatBug has every right to be annoyed. The rules are super clean and cut here. There is no ambiguity, you guys are either not reading the rules, or you are intentionally misconstruing them.

Core rules state you cannot shoot in melee unless given explicit permission. Grenade type does not grant this permission.

This makes me sad, because I thought I could use Krak grenades... At least I still have my melta bombs. (quickly starts looking for the meta bomb rules)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Damnit. Melta Bombs are grenade 1 as well... Well damnit.

 Tsol wrote:

Core rules state you cannot shoot in melee unless given explicit permission. Grenade type does not grant this permission.

The grenade rule does give you permission. It says if your unit is shooting, you may use a grenade. There is your permission. What your side of the argument is so hung up on is every other shooting rule, when those rules have no effect on what the Grenade rule says. It is actually quite simple. Is your unit shooting? Then you have permission to use a grenade.

 puma713 wrote:

 Tsol wrote:

Core rules state you cannot shoot in melee unless given explicit permission. Grenade type does not grant this permission.

The grenade rule does give you permission. It says if your unit is shooting, you may use a grenade. There is your permission. What your side of the argument is so hung up on is every other shooting rule, when those rules have no effect on what the Grenade rule says. It is actually quite simple. Is your unit shooting? Then you have permission to use a grenade.

I would love for this to be true, but I need to know where in the grenade section it says you should treat grenade weapons as they have the pistol trait.