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I think that advance and shoot would put the Kustom shoota over the Storm bolter if BS and cost were the same. On average the kustom shoota is going to have 21.5" range (which can be unreliable), As if you had BS 3+ you would average 2 hits at up to 24" (21.5 average) which is more than a storm bolter at that range.

In the end some of it depends on the unit in question. If the unit wants to be advancing the kustom shoota is better, if you want to kite an enemy the storm bolter is better.

But with Ork BS the kustom shoota is meh, because you average 1.33 hits., and less than 1 on an advance.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
GW at this point is being blatantly biased

In the SM Index* a Heavy Bolter is 10 points. I think that is still a better deal for the points than the Big Shoota once BS is factored in.

The reason I bring it up is that I don't think the Hurrican Bolter is necessarily an example of bias, considering it is less than half the cost of a Heavy Bolter. Either it was just a mistake, or the possibly the units that can mount it have some of the cost built in. I mean, I think Burna Boyz are too expensive, but in a vacuum someone could point out 0 point Ork burnas compared to 9 point* Space Marine flamers and claim that GW is biased in favor of the Orks.

*I don't have the new SM Codex, so I don't know if the points have changed from the Index values.

Burnas are pretty worthless though. A good example of GW's bias against Orks.

"Oh, Orks have the worst BS, that would mean that flamer weapons would actually be pretty useful and fluffy for them to take! So lets reduce them from D6 to D3 hits, and make them more expensive than other options, so that it's not actually worth taking any. That'll teach those filthy peasants who chose not to buy our speshmareenz."

Since you're factoring in ballistic skill into the equation, you should also factor in the cost of the model to wield it. In Grey Knights I pay 21 points for my cheapest troop unit, which has a compulsory storm bolter.

How many Kustom Shootas can you have firing for 21 points?

SemperMortis wrote:
And for the person who posted that weapons should be independent of the bearer entirely because they already paid for their statlines....well then why are Imperial Guard weapons cheaper across the board then Space Marines? It is literally the same weapons in the hands of different people. A lascanon for Marines costs 25pts, for IG...the exact same weapon is 20pts. So clearly they haven't given weapons a base cost for everyone, they adjust by faction at the very least. And since it is the EXACT SAME WEAPON we then have to look at how they adjusted the cost. the only difference between a SM with a Lascannon and a IG Heavy weapons team with a lascannon is BS and armor. The Armor isnt that important since the HWT gets an extra wound and will most likely be hunkered down in cover somewhere and I would argue a 4+ with 2w is as good as a 3+ with 1 wound. Plus IG get orders which make that lascanon better in some situations. So the real difference is the BS. Marines have +1 BS and their weapon is 5pts higher for it. SO for orks, wouldn't that mean at the very least our Similar heavy weapons should be at least 10pts cheaper? more so since we have ZERO synergy to make those ranged weapons any better? so maybe 15pts cheaper, or more accurately we should use percents, An ork equivalent item should be roughly 40-60% cheaper?

Their weapons are not cheaper across the board, a bolter costs 1 pts where it costs 0 pts for space marines. That could be considered just as egregious as your example, but it is explained by the same reasons. The cost of a weapon in the indices/codices will depend on what the baseline of the units able to equip that weapon is, among other factors, which is why you can't compare weapons that don't share a common reference point since the baseline cost of weapons in a certain pool with the same reference point is built into the cost of the models in that pool. It makes as much sense as comparing the cost of an LRBT battlecannon to the cost of a predator autocannon directly. The system will often make it seem like weapons are balanced around their cost, but that is mostly an artifact of many weapons sharing the same reference point within a certain army. Comparing weapons directly between armies will be misleading - not because those armies are designed to be balanced on different terms, but because of this system.

 Marmatag wrote:
Since you're factoring in ballistic skill into the equation, you should also factor in the cost of the model to wield it. In Grey Knights I pay 21 points for my cheapest troop unit, which has a compulsory storm bolter.

How many Kustom Shootas can you have firing for 21 points?

Since a 'Boss Nob' is a free upgrade on a single boy, the cheapest kustom shoota with model is 10pts (That includes 2 wounds, strength 5 and 4 attacks with his choppa). So 2 for cheaper than your 1 storm bolter.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Since you're factoring in ballistic skill into the equation, you should also factor in the cost of the model to wield it. In Grey Knights I pay 21 points for my cheapest troop unit, which has a compulsory storm bolter.

How many Kustom Shootas can you have firing for 21 points?

Since a 'Boss Nob' is a free upgrade on a single boy, the cheapest kustom shoota with model is 10pts (That includes 2 wounds, strength 5 and 4 attacks with his choppa). So 2 for cheaper than your 1 storm bolter.

Thank you. This makes sense. Something that costs half the price should be less effective on a unit by unit basis. This doesn't hold true for imperial guard plasma scions, though, and other things. I get that this edition isn't totally balanced.

But I wouldn't call this specific comparison imbalanced.

 Marmatag wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Since you're factoring in ballistic skill into the equation, you should also factor in the cost of the model to wield it. In Grey Knights I pay 21 points for my cheapest troop unit, which has a compulsory storm bolter.

How many Kustom Shootas can you have firing for 21 points?

Since a 'Boss Nob' is a free upgrade on a single boy, the cheapest kustom shoota with model is 10pts (That includes 2 wounds, strength 5 and 4 attacks with his choppa). So 2 for cheaper than your 1 storm bolter.

Thank you. This makes sense. Something that costs half the price should be less effective on a unit by unit basis. This doesn't hold true for imperial guard plasma scions, though, and other things. I get that this edition isn't totally balanced.

But I wouldn't call this specific comparison imbalanced.

Yeh I agree, Guard are most certainly the obvious exception to the weapons balance. But Scions look like garbage compared to Elysians for their points (Elysian vets/command squads are 7 pt models with scions deepstrike abilities and vet/command squad options - insane!)... and anything that can make the current amazing Scions look garbage, well... that spells trouble.

What happened to the playtester that claimed orks where the absolute top tier in this edition? is he still around?

 Marmatag wrote:
Since you're factoring in ballistic skill into the equation, you should also factor in the cost of the model to wield it. In Grey Knights I pay 21 points for my cheapest troop unit, which has a compulsory storm bolter.

How many Kustom Shootas can you have firing for 21 points?

Um... Zero, I think. Only boss nobs can take the upgrade in Boyz squads, so to get one kustom shoota I would need to get a unit of 10 boyz. So its 64 Points total to get 1 kustom shoota.

Actually no, Nobs in a Nobz squad can take them too, and they are 17 points each. +4 points for the Kustom shoota. So 21 points.

So a Nob+Kustom shoota is the same price as a Grey Knight space marine with storm bolter.

And the grey knight gets:
1" more movement
+2 better ballistic skill
+2 leadership
+1 armour save
Grey knight is also a psyker, so can cast a power or smite on top of the storm bolter.

The Nob Gets:
+1 strength
+1 wound
+1 attack


Wounds vs armour saves are probably fairly even, depending on what weapons they are facing. Nob would be slightly better in melee, GK would be much better at shooting and ranged damage in general.

Between the two, I would choose the Grey Knight. Better weapon, more damaging, plus psychic, faster, more access to supporting weapons and abilities. Same points cost.


Edit:
While I was writing this, someone said that the cheapest is 10 points due to the boss nob upgrade. But you can only have one boss nob in a unit as an upgrade, so I didnt really see this as a fair comparison. Hence me choosing the Nobz squad, which is the closest like-for-like comparison Orks have.

 jhnbrg wrote:
What happened to the playtester that claimed orks where the absolute top tier in this edition? is he still around?

He took the £1,000,000 bribe from GW and went to stay in the Mediterranean.

I mean seriously, neither the Storm Bolter, nor the Kustom Shoota, are going to win you games.

It's a competition between Storm Bolter, and Kustom Shoota! Who will win?

The answer might surprise you! It's "Who cares?"

Not even close. The only thing the kustom shoota can do that the storm bolter can't is shoot after advancing... and does so hitting on a 6+. It's a joke.

Niiru wrote:


Burnas are pretty worthless though. A good example of GW's bias against Orks.

"Oh, Orks have the worst BS, that would mean that flamer weapons would actually be pretty useful and fluffy for them to take! So lets reduce them from D6 to D3 hits, and make them more expensive than other options, so that it's not actually worth taking any. That'll teach those filthy peasants who chose not to buy our speshmareenz."

In fairness, burnas are also close combat AP2 weapons, and you can shoot and use them in melee in the same turn. So, yes, they don't get as many shots, but also are potent in melee.

They also roll D3 for a unit, not individually (just like lootas).........though I'm honestly not sure if that's an improvement.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


Want to know something even funnier?

Marines pay 10 points for a heavy bolter, and 17 for a twin heavy bolter. So, the second one is 3 points cheaper. Honestly, I can see that making a bit of sense.

However, orks pay 6 points for a big shoota, and pay 14 points for a twin big shootas. So, we pay 2 more points for the second one.

Rokkits are even worse. Launchers are 12, rokkit packs (basically twin rokkits ) are 28. We pay 4 more for the second rokkit.

Probably because those twin guns are heavy level stats without heavy move penalties.

Which doesn't really make a difference. Even firing at -1, twin heavy boogers hit more often than twin heavy shootas that stay perfectly still.

Poly Ranger wrote:

You keep changing the question. The title asks which is better, a storm bolter or a kustom shoota, then the poll asks which is better, a storm bolter at bs3+ or a kustom shoota at bs5+... two entierly different questions. Then in this post you have changed it back to which is better, a storm bolter or a kustom shoota again. People have voted for the poll question but you seem to be taking it back and forth.

No I don't. you can blame that one firmly on the mods who decided to alter the title without my consent or knowledge.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Of course the storm bolter is better when you take ballistic skill into account, that's pure and simple maths. They are both pretty similar power-wise as weapons however - the storm bolter gets 2 more shots in a particular 6" range, the kustom shoota gets 2 more shots in a different 6" range, and they get the same in a 12" range. The difference is that the Kustom shoota is assault whilst the storm bolter is longer range. So they should be worth the same points.
Now I also said that The ballistic skill is included in the models points cost not the weapons points cost, and if you had read my post properly you would see I had said that Guard were the anomaly. But I have given plenty of examples where ballistic skill does not affect the price of weapons, even in the same index. If you want a more obvious example, compare the Guard and Renegade indexes, one has majority ballistic skill 4+, one has majority ballistic skill 5+ and ALL the weapons are exactly the same cost.

Now if Orks got cheaper guns to the extent that they put out the same firepower for the same points then they would have a major advantage because they would be paying for their melee capabilities fairly but wouldn't be paying for their firepower fairly, as the points cost for an Ork is mainly taking into account its toughness and melee capabilities. If we said, for example, that a shoota should fire 6 shots if a marine bolter fired 3 to make sure they got the same amount of hits, and therefore should be priced the same... Then WHERE is the Orks weakness? The marine has paid for his ballistic skill in his points cost to get those two hits but the Ork hasn't, but is getting them anyway, just because. Do you see the imbalance with that 'logic'?

What melee abilities do orkz have that Space Marines dont? The correct answer is they have +1 attack factored into their model....that is LITERALLY IT. And up until this edition it wasn't even an advantage because of initiative. So the Ork has paid for his BS and WS as well, so why do we then feth with the points cost of weapons to give a bigger advantage to Space Marines? Or did you forget that Space Marines have the same toughness and WS? and only lack the +1 attack stat orkz have, they are also faster for some reason. The imbalance isn't their, the point of the game for GW is to make money and as it stands they are selling a PLETHORA of models that are ranged attack only for Orkz but they are utterly worthless because they suck so bad, so GW is pushing out models that won't sell because they want your speesemehreens to be better at shooting by a long shot and only slightly worse at CC. In reality Space Marines are almost as good as Orkz in CC as well, and when you factor in the buffs they get from cheap characters....wow! Your basic Marine has 2 attacks with a chainsword and with girlyman nearby you are hitting on 3s rerolling and wounding on 4s rerolling. Orkz on the other hand are hitting on 3s (2s with banner) and wounding on 4s no reroll. So yeah, maybe you should have the costs of your CC abilities increased dramatically to make up for it? No? Then stop trying to justify a BS5+ model paying 4pts for what amounts to a crappier version of a Stormbolter which costs HALF as much.

Dunno what to say about stuff in isolation.

I typically face 3 squads of 30 Orks 2 of them shoota boyz and the other Slugga.
There is this small matter of having leadership at the same number as they have guys in the mob.
Oh, and any mobs within 6" near them.

They get you in melee (never mind shooting) it is typically 3 attacks on assault for a non-elite unit.
It makes sense then for most if not all weapons to be assault.
Shooting is a bonus, melee is the money maker.
I have made the tactical error to not shoot enough and get a full SM 10 man squad eaten in short order.

Mind you, a wagon full of "Tankbustas" can evaporate a dreadnaught in one round of shooting.
It is impressive even with the poor shooting skill.

I must admit I am quite impressed with how a storm bolter worked out for this edition.
I am still figuring out if the GK have benefitted a lot or if the price went up accordingly.

"A wagon full of tankbustas" is over 500pts while a dread costs 100?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Niiru wrote:


Burnas are pretty worthless though. A good example of GW's bias against Orks.

"Oh, Orks have the worst BS, that would mean that flamer weapons would actually be pretty useful and fluffy for them to take! So lets reduce them from D6 to D3 hits, and make them more expensive than other options, so that it's not actually worth taking any. That'll teach those filthy peasants who chose not to buy our speshmareenz."

In fairness, burnas are also close combat AP2 weapons, and you can shoot and use them in melee in the same turn. So, yes, they don't get as many shots, but also are potent in melee.

They also roll D3 for a unit, not individually (just like lootas).........though I'm honestly not sure if that's an improvement.

Burna Boyz aren't that great right now, but my point was along the lines of if you just pick points costs for weapons in a vacuum the burna seems like a way better deal for the points than a flamer.

On one hand rolling a single d3 for the unit makes it so a command point can be used to re-roll the number of hits for the whole unit, making some abysmally low roll less likely. On the other hand if we were rolling individually for each Burna Boy chances are things would be pretty close to average considering how many dice we would be rolling, so I think overall it is just a tad bit worse because it means we need to use more command points. Of course orks can get lots of command points relatively easily, but on the other hand we might often have several units of Lootas and/or Burna Boyz so we might roll low for more than one unit a turn. I can see why they chose to have the whole unit roll for the sake of speeding up the game, but I hope the Codex will include some ways to mitigate this through Stratagems, Warlord Traits, Clan abilities, etc.

I can see why they chose to make the burna a d3 flamer, considering it is also an AP -2 melee weapon. It's not as good as either an Imperial flamer or an Imperial power weapon. I think their intent was to make it not as good at either thing, but okay at both in order to keep the cost of the unit down. I think that Burna Boyz aren't quite killy enough for their cost and fragility, but I don't think that it's because of some malicious attempt to make orks bad.

Right now we've got a few units that are really good (possibly undercosted) like Boyz and Weirdboyz. We've also got a whole bunch of units that are just kind of "meh" and aren't truly terrible, but aren't worth taking when we could have more Boyz. A lot of these units could probably be fixed by minor points drops and/or good stratagems. I'm pretty confident that will happen. (There are a few units that might need a major points drop or a significant change to their rules, because they're either way too expensive and/or difficult to use.)

 Marmatag wrote:
I mean seriously, neither the Storm Bolter, nor the Kustom Shoota, are going to win you games.

It's a competition between Storm Bolter, and Kustom Shoota! Who will win?

The answer might surprise you! It's "Who cares?"

So you make a BS point, and when proven wrong you claim the argument doesn't matter. About what I expect.

I mean hey, shooting doesn't matter for orks, right? We should just play greentide and rush into the enemy guns all the time, right? These other options are just traps designed to punish us for not playing our true calling: getting grounded merciless into the dirt by the good guy factions

 Marmatag wrote:
I mean seriously, neither the Storm Bolter, nor the Kustom Shoota, are going to win you games.

It's a competition between Storm Bolter, and Kustom Shoota! Who will win?

The answer might surprise you! It's "Who cares?"

I would tend to disagree with that statement, especially coming from a grey knight player. Getting double shots on storm bolters for free combined with risk-free deep striking is a devastating combo for certain armies with low armor save, high cost ranged infantry (lootas, burnas, flash gitz, etc).

Hell, even vehicles, at least ork ones, are little protection from a massed storm bolters. I lost an entire battlewagon to nothing but smites n' storm bolters - mostly the latter.

This can be somewhat mitigated by careful deployment, but still, massed deep striking storm bolters packs a hell of a punch.

 jhnbrg wrote:
"A wagon full of tankbustas" is over 500pts while a dread costs 100?

A Dakka-dread is a wee bit more.
The Predator and the two skimmers in short order racked-up rather quick.
I am unsure it was "full" but it did not seem to keep him from getting a death-roller on the thing as well.
Took some lascannon pot-shots and sending in a squad of marines to kill of the remainder while the 3 squads of 90- odd orks total were running up the field.
Good times... ish.

Bah, it was glorious carnage, it made me happy for all the troops I did take.

SemperMortis wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

You keep changing the question. The title asks which is better, a storm bolter or a kustom shoota, then the poll asks which is better, a storm bolter at bs3+ or a kustom shoota at bs5+... two entierly different questions. Then in this post you have changed it back to which is better, a storm bolter or a kustom shoota again. People have voted for the poll question but you seem to be taking it back and forth.

No I don't. you can blame that one firmly on the mods who decided to alter the title without my consent or knowledge.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Of course the storm bolter is better when you take ballistic skill into account, that's pure and simple maths. They are both pretty similar power-wise as weapons however - the storm bolter gets 2 more shots in a particular 6" range, the kustom shoota gets 2 more shots in a different 6" range, and they get the same in a 12" range. The difference is that the Kustom shoota is assault whilst the storm bolter is longer range. So they should be worth the same points.
Now I also said that The ballistic skill is included in the models points cost not the weapons points cost, and if you had read my post properly you would see I had said that Guard were the anomaly. But I have given plenty of examples where ballistic skill does not affect the price of weapons, even in the same index. If you want a more obvious example, compare the Guard and Renegade indexes, one has majority ballistic skill 4+, one has majority ballistic skill 5+ and ALL the weapons are exactly the same cost.

Now if Orks got cheaper guns to the extent that they put out the same firepower for the same points then they would have a major advantage because they would be paying for their melee capabilities fairly but wouldn't be paying for their firepower fairly, as the points cost for an Ork is mainly taking into account its toughness and melee capabilities. If we said, for example, that a shoota should fire 6 shots if a marine bolter fired 3 to make sure they got the same amount of hits, and therefore should be priced the same... Then WHERE is the Orks weakness? The marine has paid for his ballistic skill in his points cost to get those two hits but the Ork hasn't, but is getting them anyway, just because. Do you see the imbalance with that 'logic'?

What melee abilities do orkz have that Space Marines dont? The correct answer is they have +1 attack factored into their model....that is LITERALLY IT. And up until this edition it wasn't even an advantage because of initiative. So the Ork has paid for his BS and WS as well, so why do we then feth with the points cost of weapons to give a bigger advantage to Space Marines? Or did you forget that Space Marines have the same toughness and WS? and only lack the +1 attack stat orkz have, they are also faster for some reason. The imbalance isn't their, the point of the game for GW is to make money and as it stands they are selling a PLETHORA of models that are ranged attack only for Orkz but they are utterly worthless because they suck so bad, so GW is pushing out models that won't sell because they want your speesemehreens to be better at shooting by a long shot and only slightly worse at CC. In reality Space Marines are almost as good as Orkz in CC as well, and when you factor in the buffs they get from cheap characters....wow! Your basic Marine has 2 attacks with a chainsword and with girlyman nearby you are hitting on 3s rerolling and wounding on 4s rerolling. Orkz on the other hand are hitting on 3s (2s with banner) and wounding on 4s no reroll. So yeah, maybe you should have the costs of your CC abilities increased dramatically to make up for it? No? Then stop trying to justify a BS5+ model paying 4pts for what amounts to a crappier version of a Stormbolter which costs HALF as much.

Again you have failed to read what I have said. I have repeatedly said that it should cost the same as a storm bolter. Go back and re read.
Second, an Ork has paid for his toughness and melee capabilities - he's paid 6 points for it. The space marine has paid for this too, plus he's also paid for his ballistic skill and his other advantages with the other 7 points. Your post makes it sound like you want marines and orks to be as good in melee as each other and as good at shooting as each other yet you fail to take into account that a marine is over twice the price. Of course the Ork is going to be worse. That's. How. Points. Costs. Work.

Poly Ranger wrote:


Again you have failed to read what I have said. I have repeatedly said that it should cost the same as a storm bolter. Go back and re read.
Second, an Ork has paid for his toughness and melee capabilities - he's paid 6 points for it. The space marine has paid for this too, plus he's also paid for his ballistic skill and his other advantages with the other 7 points. Your post makes it sound like you want marines and orks to be as good in melee as each other and as good at shooting as each other yet you fail to take into account that a marine is over twice the price. Of course the Ork is going to be worse. That's. How. Points. Costs. Work.

Stormbolters and Kustom Shootas shouldn't be the same cost, Kustom Shootas should be cheaper because you have to take into account the BS of the army. And YES I do want Ork shooting to be as good as Marines, otherwise what is the point of taking the fething units that are specialized as ranged support? That is like saying Assault Marines shouldn't get Chainswords because they aren't a CC faction and therefore they shouldnt be good at assault.

Lootas, Flash Gitz, Tank Bustas, Mek Gunz, Dakkajet, Burna bommer, Blitza bommer, Wazbom flyer and Big Gunz are units dedicated SOLELY to dakka. So if orkz shouldn't be good at shooting we should get rid of these units, because nobody will take them if we are suppose to be a CC Only army.

And A kustom shoota can be taken on Nobz, Meganobz and Boss Nobz as well as a few HQs, it wouldn't be ground breaking to make them 1pt or hell even a standard issue free upgrade. And if you are going to point out "well they can advance and shoot!, well yeah they can but it takes 3 Kustom Shootas advancing to get 1 wound on a T4 model who then has an armor save. So against a Space Marine it would take 9 Kustom Shootas totaling 36 shots to guarantee a single marine DIED from Kustom Shootas that advanced. 36 shots = 6 hits = 3 wounds, Vs a 3+ save = 1 unsaved wound.

SemperMortis wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


Again you have failed to read what I have said. I have repeatedly said that it should cost the same as a storm bolter. Go back and re read.
Second, an Ork has paid for his toughness and melee capabilities - he's paid 6 points for it. The space marine has paid for this too, plus he's also paid for his ballistic skill and his other advantages with the other 7 points. Your post makes it sound like you want marines and orks to be as good in melee as each other and as good at shooting as each other yet you fail to take into account that a marine is over twice the price. Of course the Ork is going to be worse. That's. How. Points. Costs. Work.

Stormbolters and Kustom Shootas shouldn't be the same cost, Kustom Shootas should be cheaper because you have to take into account the BS of the army. And YES I do want Ork shooting to be as good as Marines, otherwise what is the point of taking the fething units that are specialized as ranged support? That is like saying Assault Marines shouldn't get Chainswords because they aren't a CC faction and therefore they shouldnt be good at assault.

Lootas, Flash Gitz, Tank Bustas, Mek Gunz, Dakkajet, Burna bommer, Blitza bommer, Wazbom flyer and Big Gunz are units dedicated SOLELY to dakka. So if orkz shouldn't be good at shooting we should get rid of these units, because nobody will take them if we are suppose to be a CC Only army.

And A kustom shoota can be taken on Nobz, Meganobz and Boss Nobz as well as a few HQs, it wouldn't be ground breaking to make them 1pt or hell even a standard issue free upgrade. And if you are going to point out "well they can advance and shoot!, well yeah they can but it takes 3 Kustom Shootas advancing to get 1 wound on a T4 model who then has an armor save. So against a Space Marine it would take 9 Kustom Shootas totaling 36 shots to guarantee a single marine DIED from Kustom Shootas that advanced. 36 shots = 6 hits = 3 wounds, Vs a 3+ save = 1 unsaved wound.

Actually a better comparison is that Assault Marines get their Chainsword but someone complaining they aren't good enough in melee compared to Orks. Which they aren't and shouldn't be.

Until the Ork Codex comes this thread is largely a waste, unfortunately. Pretty much everyone agrees Orks need some love; so do Tau, Craftworld Eldar, and the Inquisition to list some of the other prominent victims. Fortunately, with a Codex every month or so rather than every year or more, we shouldn't have terribly long to wait. The real question is whether the wait will be worth it - though that may be tempered or biased based on how one thinks/wants the Codex to turn out. Someone hoping the Ork Codex puts Orks onto the undisputed top of the meta may be disappointed, for example.

We'll just have to see, like it or not.

SemperMortis wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


Again you have failed to read what I have said. I have repeatedly said that it should cost the same as a storm bolter. Go back and re read.
Second, an Ork has paid for his toughness and melee capabilities - he's paid 6 points for it. The space marine has paid for this too, plus he's also paid for his ballistic skill and his other advantages with the other 7 points. Your post makes it sound like you want marines and orks to be as good in melee as each other and as good at shooting as each other yet you fail to take into account that a marine is over twice the price. Of course the Ork is going to be worse. That's. How. Points. Costs. Work.

Stormbolters and Kustom Shootas shouldn't be the same cost, Kustom Shootas should be cheaper because you have to take into account the BS of the army. And YES I do want Ork shooting to be as good as Marines, otherwise what is the point of taking the fething units that are specialized as ranged support? That is like saying Assault Marines shouldn't get Chainswords because they aren't a CC faction and therefore they shouldnt be good at assault.

Lootas, Flash Gitz, Tank Bustas, Mek Gunz, Dakkajet, Burna bommer, Blitza bommer, Wazbom flyer and Big Gunz are units dedicated SOLELY to dakka. So if orkz shouldn't be good at shooting we should get rid of these units, because nobody will take them if we are suppose to be a CC Only army.

And A kustom shoota can be taken on Nobz, Meganobz and Boss Nobz as well as a few HQs, it wouldn't be ground breaking to make them 1pt or hell even a standard issue free upgrade. And if you are going to point out "well they can advance and shoot!, well yeah they can but it takes 3 Kustom Shootas advancing to get 1 wound on a T4 model who then has an armor save. So against a Space Marine it would take 9 Kustom Shootas totaling 36 shots to guarantee a single marine DIED from Kustom Shootas that advanced. 36 shots = 6 hits = 3 wounds, Vs a 3+ save = 1 unsaved wound.

And the Orks are cheaper. Hence being worse at shooting. It is built into their points cost. I'm struggling to see what you are struggling to see about that. Weapons should always be based on their own separate cost. If you want to make an individual Ork as good at shooting as a Marine, that's fine then as long as you increase the points cost of the Ork. Otherwise Marines will be out numbered, worse in melee and worse at shooting due to being outnumbered. Orks indeed need some buffs thrown their way, but making them as good at shooting as other forces, keeping them as good at melee as they currently are and keeping their points cost the same would be insanely broken. It would also be defeating the whole point of the Ork faction.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


Again you have failed to read what I have said. I have repeatedly said that it should cost the same as a storm bolter. Go back and re read.
Second, an Ork has paid for his toughness and melee capabilities - he's paid 6 points for it. The space marine has paid for this too, plus he's also paid for his ballistic skill and his other advantages with the other 7 points. Your post makes it sound like you want marines and orks to be as good in melee as each other and as good at shooting as each other yet you fail to take into account that a marine is over twice the price. Of course the Ork is going to be worse. That's. How. Points. Costs. Work.

Stormbolters and Kustom Shootas shouldn't be the same cost, Kustom Shootas should be cheaper because you have to take into account the BS of the army. And YES I do want Ork shooting to be as good as Marines, otherwise what is the point of taking the fething units that are specialized as ranged support? That is like saying Assault Marines shouldn't get Chainswords because they aren't a CC faction and therefore they shouldnt be good at assault.

Lootas, Flash Gitz, Tank Bustas, Mek Gunz, Dakkajet, Burna bommer, Blitza bommer, Wazbom flyer and Big Gunz are units dedicated SOLELY to dakka. So if orkz shouldn't be good at shooting we should get rid of these units, because nobody will take them if we are suppose to be a CC Only army.

And A kustom shoota can be taken on Nobz, Meganobz and Boss Nobz as well as a few HQs, it wouldn't be ground breaking to make them 1pt or hell even a standard issue free upgrade. And if you are going to point out "well they can advance and shoot!, well yeah they can but it takes 3 Kustom Shootas advancing to get 1 wound on a T4 model who then has an armor save. So against a Space Marine it would take 9 Kustom Shootas totaling 36 shots to guarantee a single marine DIED from Kustom Shootas that advanced. 36 shots = 6 hits = 3 wounds, Vs a 3+ save = 1 unsaved wound.

Actually a better comparison is that Assault Marines get their Chainsword but someone complaining they aren't good enough in melee compared to Orks. Which they aren't and shouldn't be.

Exactly this.


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Also look at a Power axe.
I could start a thread with a poll...

Whats better:
A 5pt power axe on a st3 2 attack model
Or
A 5pt power axe on a st4 4 attack model

Guess what the answer would be. Does that mean that Guard should pay 2 points for poweraxes? No. Because the difference has been built into the models points cost.

Poly Ranger wrote:


And the Orks are cheaper. Hence being worse at shooting. It is built into their points cost. I'm struggling to see what you are struggling to see about that. Weapons should always be based on their own separate cost. If you want to make an individual Ork as good at shooting as a Marine, that's fine then as long as you increase the points cost of the Ork. Otherwise Marines will be out numbered, worse in melee and worse at shooting due to being outnumbered. Orks indeed need some buffs thrown their way, but making them as good at shooting as other forces, keeping them as good at melee as they currently are and keeping their points cost the same would be insanely broken. It would also be defeating the whole point of the Ork faction.

The whole point of the Ork faction is crazy, random, insane, balls-to-the-wall dakka and general mayhem. They used to have a character that basically had a 50/50 chance of turning an enemy character into an, and I quote, "Angry Squig". You even had to provide the Squig model. -This- is what Orks should be like.

They shouldn't be accurate.
Their guns shouldn't be efficient.
They shouldn't be comparable, Ork to Git, in any of their shooting abilities.

What you should get from orks, is a big bucketful of dice. When tankbustas or lootas fire their weapons, they should be throwing dozens of shots out.

And a lot of them will miss.

BUT - The average result should end up being about equal to what other armies can put out, for the same points cost. The difference will be that, if the Orks roll badly, the enemy barely feel it. And if Gorks (or Mork) smile upon them, and they get a lot of lucky 6's, then they should be capable of wiping whole squads off the board in a storm of dakka.

The downside of this, of course, is that Orks die fast, and as they die the chances of them getting those lucky rolls drop just as fast. Whereas other, more survivable units (like those pesky space mareenz) are far more consistent, reliable, and efficient.

Unfortunatly, in their efforts to "normalise" all the rules, they took away all of the Orkish flavour and randomness and general insanity. But didnt replace it with anything. So you're left with Orks firing off 2 or 4 shots a turn, and hitting maybe twice per *game*, with no real benefit to lucky rolls.

Hell, AdMech get a load of bonus mortal wounds on some of their weapons when they roll sixes. This would be PERFECT for orks. Crap weapons, but you throw out enough of them and some of dat dakka is gunna hit yoo inna face!

Ok its 4:30am, I should stop typing now.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I mean seriously, neither the Storm Bolter, nor the Kustom Shoota, are going to win you games.

It's a competition between Storm Bolter, and Kustom Shoota! Who will win?

The answer might surprise you! It's "Who cares?"

So you make a BS point, and when proven wrong you claim the argument doesn't matter. About what I expect.

I mean hey, shooting doesn't matter for orks, right? We should just play greentide and rush into the enemy guns all the time, right? These other options are just traps designed to punish us for not playing our true calling: getting grounded merciless into the dirt by the good guy factions

Not even close. the cost of fielding storm bolters is very high. Nobz aren't supposed to be a shooting platform. Saying an extra wound doesn't matter? Really? There's literally no point replying to people when they have a serious bias in their heads.

The cost of fielding storm bolters isn't actually very high. You can basically pop them on any vehicle you want, pop them on any sarge you want without stopping the sarge from carrying a power weapon, and put them on your melee HQs for a cheap boost to their ranged damage without adding the cost of a combiweapon. And so on. In fact it's a common way to fill out those last few points in your list.