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The most recent Grey Knights FAQ has me frustrated.

The way that re-rolls and modifiers work this edition is one of the most annoying, frustrating small changes to the game. It's still a good edition overall, but the way that you have to roll dice, re-roll, apply modifiers, then check for Gets Hot and other special effects is really obnoxious.

In the Grey Knights codex, the power Sanctuary can easily give Kaldor Draigo an invuln that will pass on a 2 or higher - It's still a 3++, because of the way that re-rolls work, but you add 1 to your invuln.
You can also give any character with a 4++ that same pass rate, but you have to spend Command Points so that it stacks with Sanctuary. (The Grandmaster in Dreadknight Armor seems like an ideal choice.)

In their FAQ, they change Sanctuary to: "... the invulnerable save of that unit is improved by 1 (to a maximum of 3+)."

Not only is this the ONLY instance of that kind of modification in the game, (Everything else that involves a roll changes the roll, not the stat.) Also, while that sort of fixes Kaldor Draigo, but it doesn't fix anything else, because you can still use the Strategem that still adds 1 to your ROLL, not to your saving throw. So you can still get a 2++ on many HQ units, the only change is that Kaldor Draigo can't get a 2++ without spending Command Points.

I can deal with these sorts of problems if it has to do with a conflict between old books and new, but at this point, Games Workshop has no excuse. Getting a 2++ Invuln on Grandmaster-type characters is incredibly obvious to anyone who even glances at the book. (It's the first thing that everyone at my LGS noticed.) They should have picked up on this right away. But then, when they didn't, they released a patch that doesn't actually fix anything, because they forgot about one of the rules in their book and don't understand how their own mechanics work, despite this system being fresh and new and having no old rules to conflict with.
They made a janky, annoying system for rerolls and modifiers, and they can't even keep it straight in their own rules how that system is supposed to work.

Or maybe they are okay with him having a 2++, just that he has to use CP to do it, rather than just a power.

jcd386 wrote:
Or maybe they are okay with him having a 2++, just that he has to use CP to do it, rather than just a power.

Aside from the fact that a 2++ save with the ability to reroll (And on that's in an army that's great at preventing Psychic Powers, and thus Mortal Wounds from most enemies) is one of the biggest cheesy elements from previous editions that they SHOULD have gotten rid of and shouldn't exist in the game, there's also the problem that this was an incredibly obvious issue that should never have made it into the codex to begin with, and the other issue that they had to stop obeying their own formatting rules in order to use their 'fix', which demonstrates one of the problems with the way that their roll modifier system works, when we're only three codices into the new edition.
GW is still failing to notice obvious problems with the way that their rules work until after publication. (As an aside: They also had to FAQ that you can only use the Relic strategem for Grey Knights and CSM once, even though they already should have had that problem fixed before publication, because it was also an issue in the Space Marines codex. It was a minor, unproblematic issue in the first one, but the fact that they're failing to fix it in newer books is pretty annoying and shows a lack of care and effort on their end.)

Being able to do it with command point seems fine for two reasons

1.you can only use a stratagem once, so you really have to decide who's getting that 2++.
2. CPs are a finite resource and with a elite army like GK your getting what, 4? maybe 5? there's other useful stratagems those CP will go quick unless you decide they're only for handing out the 2++ and then you're missing out on all the other options.

Actually think is artfully done on GWs part

 Ir0njack wrote:
Being able to do it with command point seems fine for two reasons

1.you can only use a stratagem once, so you really have to decide who's getting that 2++.
2. CPs are a finite resource and with a elite army like GK your getting what, 4? maybe 5? there's other useful stratagems those will go quick unless you decide their only for handing out the 2++ and then you're missing out on all the other options.

Actually think is artfully done on GWs part

You can also only use the psychic power once. You're never getting more than one 2+ Invuln in your army, even pre-FAQ.
Also, while CPs are finite, that was never the issue - Draigo can't get a free 2++, but Draigo getting a 2++ isn't nearly as bad as, for example, the 12-wound Grandmaster Dreadknight getting a 2++. Also, in a 2k list it is VERY easy (and more tactically viable) to take a small detachment of Grey Knights to supplement with a larger army of something else, like Sisters of Battle or Imperial Guard, who can easily get a Brigade, leaving you with an army that has 12-13 CPs.

I've commented on the other threads discussing this change and I haven't heard anything so far that would suggest to me that this is a big issue. I understand that they wanted to stop Draigo just casting sanctuary on himself every turn for a "free" 2++ and instead now it has to cost you CP. That's fine, no problem.

I think the issue of a GM with a 2++ isn't much of one. It isn't free and costs you a psychic power and 2CP every turn. Also mortal wounds ignore all of that defence and are something that a lot of people seem to be forgetting are available across the board in 8th.

Finally, and it has been mentioned already, you can only cast sanctuary once and use the stratagem once. So you are only getting the bonus once per turn on 1 unit. To be honest I'm surprised they even FAQ'd this in an army that is heavily over costed this edition already.

Waaaghpower wrote:
(As an aside: They also had to FAQ that you can only use the Relic strategem for Grey Knights and CSM once, even though they already should have had that problem fixed before publication, because it was also an issue in the Space Marines codex. It was a minor, unproblematic issue in the first one, but the fact that they're failing to fix it in newer books is pretty annoying and shows a lack of care and effort on their end.)

Pretty sure the GK and CSM codexes would already have been printed prior to the Space Marine codex being released and then FAQ'd. No doubt we'll see this corrected in future codex but realistically can't expect it to have been changed so quickly.

TonyL707 wrote:

Pretty sure the GK and CSM codexes would already have been printed prior to the Space Marine codex being released and then FAQ'd. No doubt we'll see this corrected in future codex but realistically can't expect it to have been changed so quickly.

If that's the case, why not release the FAQ on day 1?

And I still refuse to believe that GW didn't notice the '2++ Draigo' problem before printing.

Yes, the way that rerolls are done is clunky as all helle.
And Draigo, imo, shouldn't matter because nobody should use him.
Might as well call your army the Mary Sues.

this is the same problem as the necron reanimation protocals from 7th, a load of the rules gave a +1 etc to the ROLL not the actual save, so you still need a 5+ for example, but a 3+ would get you that with modifiers, what you have indicated just shows me that GW still hasnt learned a damn thing.

One step forward three steps back.

How long has 8th ed been out now?

There isn't anything to indicate that GW doesn't think you should be able to get a 2++. Just that they don't want the psychic power to be able to get you there. Strategems are much more limited, and therefore can be more powerful.

It really seems like everyone complaining here is doing it simply for the sake of it.

Waaaghpower wrote:

TonyL707 wrote:

Pretty sure the GK and CSM codexes would already have been printed prior to the Space Marine codex being released and then FAQ'd. No doubt we'll see this corrected in future codex but realistically can't expect it to have been changed so quickly.

If that's the case, why not release the FAQ on day 1?

And I still refuse to believe that GW didn't notice the '2++ Draigo' problem before printing.

Maybe they wanted to give it a week to pick up any extra issues before doing an FAQ?

And is a 2++ on one unit at the expense of CP that big a problem? Is it even a problem at all or part of the army design?

TonyL707 wrote:

Maybe they wanted to give it a week to pick up any extra issues before doing an FAQ?

And is a 2++ on one unit at the expense of CP that big a problem? Is it even a problem at all or part of the army design?

I do think it's a problem -- although I also think it's intended -- just not in a pure GK army. 2 CP per turn is really rough for a GK army. You've got maybe 2 Battalions, and that's if you're making significant sacrifices to get there. You do this by bringing only HQs and Strike Squads, basically. But I can bring a GK Patrol with a Sisters/Guard brigade and have 12 CP to throw around. It's even pretty feasible to bring a battalion of GKs here and have 15 CP while still being pretty happy with everything in the brigade. With 12 CP, I can burn 4 CP per turn for the first two turns on GK stratagems and have plenty left over for re-rolls when I need them. And a 2++ with the option to spend a CP to re-roll it once per phase is a huge deal, especially since I'm also denying the most common source of mortal wounds at +1.

It's Draigo/ a GK Grand Master. It's supposed to be the bees knees.

Try whining again in six months when GK are winning everything.

Bet you that doesn't happen.

This is a problem in the rules.

Can you cast sanctuary AND use the command point boost?

I suppose the order would matter, wouldn't it?

Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight (GMNDK) has a 4++.
GMNDK casts sanctuary. Now 3++.
GMNDK uses Command Point power. Now 2++.
Legal.

GMNDK has a 4++.
GMNDK uses Command Point power. Now 3++.
GMNDK casts sanctuary. Cannot increase passed 3++.

It's funky. Granted, I still haven't read this stratagem very carefully because I doubt i'll be using it that much honestly, considering 1 extra invuln probably won't make or break the game. If I fail a 3++ i'll just use a CP to reroll the failure.

It's no problem for me anyways. I usually am buffing 2 GMDK to 3++ instead of 1 to 2+ and 1 is sitting at a 4+. It's really not an issue anyways. No one is shooting at a 12 wound model with a 2+/3+ with a tech marine following close behind.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is a problem in the rules.

Can you cast sanctuary AND use the command point boost?

I suppose the order would matter, wouldn't it?

Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight (GMNDK) has a 4++.
GMNDK casts sanctuary. Now 3++.
GMNDK uses Command Point power. Now 2++.
Legal.

GMNDK has a 4++.
GMNDK uses Command Point power. Now 3++.
GMNDK casts sanctuary. Cannot increase passed 3++.

It's funky. Granted, I still haven't read this stratagem very carefully because I doubt i'll be using it that much honestly, considering 1 extra invuln probably won't make or break the game. If I fail a 3++ i'll just use a CP to reroll the failure.

The command point doesn't increase your invul, it adds one to the roll. So regardless of the order, your 4++ becomes a 3++ with the power, and then you add 1 to the dice rolls, making 2s into 3s, which is what you need to save on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So there isn't a rules problem at all

jcd386 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is a problem in the rules.

Can you cast sanctuary AND use the command point boost?

I suppose the order would matter, wouldn't it?

Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight (GMNDK) has a 4++.
GMNDK casts sanctuary. Now 3++.
GMNDK uses Command Point power. Now 2++.
Legal.

GMNDK has a 4++.
GMNDK uses Command Point power. Now 3++.
GMNDK casts sanctuary. Cannot increase passed 3++.

It's funky. Granted, I still haven't read this stratagem very carefully because I doubt i'll be using it that much honestly, considering 1 extra invuln probably won't make or break the game. If I fail a 3++ i'll just use a CP to reroll the failure.

The command point doesn't increase your invul, it adds one to the roll. So regardless of the order, your 4++ becomes a 3++ with the power, and then you add 1 to the dice rolls, making 2s into 3s, which is what you need to save on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So there isn't a rules problem at all

Got it. Works for me.

I wouldn't waste this on something with a 3++ anyway.

"Doesn't understand its own rules" is a good line to summarize a lot of GW in general. There are so many exploits, shenanigans, etc. that come from hilariously incompetent game design (or, arguably, executive-meddled design). Really, 40k's main advantage is GW still does mostly good multipart plastics with tons of conversion. It's easy to mock Centurions, but plastic Sternguard are still quite a fun kit. And many of their earlier WHFB plastics still have a fair bit of conversion appeal. I <3 me some Glade Guard & Flagellants.