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Also don't forget kastelans are t7 a3 str 6 with a 3+ save that's not something you really want to charge a unit of 6 of without a lot of power fists. If and that is not guaranteed, if you can get to charge them you still have to fight them


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And then you have to hope to god the mech player was stupid enough to pile in the data smith so you can kill it because next turn those kastelans go to six attacks each


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 Verviedi wrote:
No, you don't. Cawl gives you rerolls, the TPD gives you rerolling ones. Pretty much any army you think of has a way of getting a turn one charge - you vastly underestimate the effectiveness of armies like Orks, Tau commanders, and Tyranids.

It seems to me like that that list is only being kept viable by your local tournament rules shutting down its hard counters. The data (from larger tournaments and the tactics thread) shows that Kastelan spam is a massive trap, and you get diminishing returns after 4 Kastelans in a list. 11 is "just no" territory, unless you're playing someone who doesn't understand how to abuse your lack of screening units.

rerolling 1s is what I meant. In any case I run this it works, all you have to say it doesn't is theory and buthurt "but but but what this" benchhammer

Going to confirm that that kastellan list is a terrible list

Also what data? Are people even trying kastelans spam do you have the data to show? Yes against conscripts spam with heavy tank support or fire warriors spam that might be a problem but I don't have to worry about that

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
No, you don't. Cawl gives you rerolls, the TPD gives you rerolling ones. Pretty much any army you think of has a way of getting a turn one charge - you vastly underestimate the effectiveness of armies like Orks, Tau commanders, and Tyranids.

It seems to me like that that list is only being kept viable by your local tournament rules shutting down its hard counters. The data (from larger tournaments and the tactics thread) shows that Kastelan spam is a massive trap, and you get diminishing returns after 4 Kastelans in a list. 11 is "just no" territory, unless you're playing someone who doesn't understand how to abuse your lack of screening units.

rerolling 1s is what I meant. In any case I run this it works, all you have to say it doesn't is theory and buthurt "but but but what this" benchhammer

"Butthurt"

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also what data? Are people even trying kastelans spam do you have the data to show? Yes against conscripts spam with heavy tank support or fire warriors spam that might be a problem but I don't have to worry about that

Yes. There are no winning kastelan spam Mechanicus lists in any major tournament that I can find.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Going to confirm that that kastellan list is a terrible list

*eyeroll* internet know it alls

Kastellan spam =/= conscript spam or any infantry, they dont have the footprint or the board presence, and there is not even a close to cost comparison

Large units are a giant point sink and easy to tie up, sure they hit reasonably hard in combat with punching but still on 4s for 1 damage and no AP, they can be tied up by anything and there goes half your list.

The list needs something to screen and something to capture objectives. Its a bad list.

gendoikari87 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Going to confirm that that kastellan list is a terrible list

*eyeroll* internet know it alls

You do realize that Wren is a rather good player who plays, and generally does well in major tournaments, yes?

You do realise those Kastelans can't swat a fly in close combat when they are in protector protocol right? If you get charged by a deep striker after you knock them into protector mode, you've got two full game turns of them just standing there like tin punch bags.

Yeah I've been generally unimpressed with kastellans myself. They are a bit fragile, and while they are lethal I've found infiltrators to be a solid alternative for mass infantry killing, while not making themselves such a huge obvious target. Then again, my local meta leans towards hordes of brimstones, conscripts, etc over space marines, so that might be part of it.

If there is one thing I hope for this codex, it's to adjust pricing on our infantry. As it stands, they just aren't good enough. I'd be far better off poaching IG infantry (that's normal infantry squads not conscripts) to support my heavy and elite elements.

gendoikari87 wrote:
You get rerolls from the tech priest and it's 108 shots on overwatch with the data smith on a full unit of six kastelans

Also 7 units so you go first.and tournaments only allow two units to deepstrike around here (maybe that's different in your area by both my local stores limit deep strikes to two units)

Finally yes I play and yes this works, you simply don't know what your talking about


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The only drawback is massive hoard armies, luckily meq reigns supreme here


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And most meq squads are 10 wounds max 108 shots hitting on 6 is average of 8 dead meq so you stand decent chance of wiping out any unit with a 3+ that tries to charge. Terminators or full ten man primaris is a different story

The re-rolls only apply to the Shooting phase. So no, you don't get re-rolls during Overwatch.

The Datasmith is not in that unit, so he can't Overwatch with them.

If your TOs are not allowing Deep Strikes, then you are not playing 40k. You are playing weird house rule 40k. That definitely changes the entire dynamic, but won't stop Da Jump or a Colstar, so... yea.

Sounds like your meta is lacking diversity. If it had hordes, you would realize that your list is pretty garbage in a TAC environment. Thankfully, I play in a 40k hub that has a load of variety - so I have to make a list that works in normal 40k games, with no house rules skewing things.

And I don't know what I am talking about? Aw, I totally don't. You're so right!


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Yellabelly wrote:
You do realise those Kastelans can't swat a fly in close combat when they are in protector protocol right? If you get charged by a deep striker after you knock them into protector mode, you've got two full game turns of them just standing there like tin punch bags.

They can makes their CC attacks in Protector Protocols. They just can't move.

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah I've been generally unimpressed with kastellans myself. They are a bit fragile, and while they are lethal I've found infiltrators to be a solid alternative for mass infantry killing, while not making themselves such a huge obvious target. Then again, my local meta leans towards hordes of brimstones, conscripts, etc over space marines, so that might be part of it.

If there is one thing I hope for this codex, it's to adjust pricing on our infantry. As it stands, they just aren't good enough. I'd be far better off poaching IG infantry (that's normal infantry squads not conscripts) to support my heavy and elite elements.

They're our best unit by far in the dex currently (perhaps rivaled by dunecrawlers) but they need support.

I agree though our skitarii troops and even kataphrons need some help.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
They're our best unit by far in the dex currently (perhaps rivaled by dunecrawlers) but they need support.

I agree though our skitarii troops and even kataphrons need some help.

I just can't keep the fething things alive long enough for that to be evident. Even taking two units of three I find I'm lucky if most of one unit survives long enough to enter dakka mode. They are just such obvious targets and they don't really come online till turn 2 at the earliest, and if I am going second I don't even bother trying to switch protocols.

SilverAlien wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
They're our best unit by far in the dex currently (perhaps rivaled by dunecrawlers) but they need support.

I agree though our skitarii troops and even kataphrons need some help.

I just can't keep the fething things alive long enough for that to be evident. Even taking three I find I'm lucky if one survives long enough to enter dakka mode. They are just such obvious targets and they don't really come online till turn 2 at the earliest, and if I am going second I don't even bother trying to switch protocols.

Really? They have been all-stars for me. I usually take 5-6 at 2k. They are usually 1+/4++ on turn one with a 5+ reflect with T7. Generally, aside from things like Lascannons and Dark Lances, I don't sweat losing them. That being said, they do die. And even with my screening units, they get locked up. Always good to bring a variety of options to ensure your whole strategy doesn't hinge on a couple of Kastelan units. I think Dragoons have been the big surprise for me - they are such a useful screen (as opposed to our fragile Skitarii).

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Really? They have been all-stars for me. I usually take 5-6 at 2k. They are usually 1+/4++ on turn one with a 5+ reflect with T7. Generally, aside from things like Lascannons and Dark Lances, I don't sweat losing them. That being said, they do die. And even with my screening units, they get locked up. Always good to bring a variety of options to ensure your whole strategy doesn't hinge on a couple of Kastelan units. I think Dragoons have been the big surprise for me - they are such a useful screen (as opposed to our fragile Skitarii).

You know, looking back at the stats it may just be bad luck. They feel so much easier to kill than onagers, but they aren't really on paper. Maybe that's because they get focus fired more heavily, or end up closer to enemy heavy weapons due to the shorter range of their weapons and my desire to ensure they have a decent killing field. Maybe I just had a bad go with them, hard to say.

Whilst one appreciates we're a bit scarce with regards to actual news, It's be better if the tactical discussions took place in a different thread.


Ta.

Re-rolls are just in the Shooting Phase too, so no re-rolls in Overwatch.

To get back on topic, yes we do need transports. "Skitarii shoot you off your objectives" yeah it still requires you to hold your own, and trust me Skitarii are overpriced (the Rangers and Vanguards) and die like flies. Fulgurites are awesome, they'd just be fantastic if they had a transport. Drop a unit of 10 near a unit, charge it, drown it in mortal wounds, and there you have a 10 man unit with 3++ and 5+++ that'll take forever to die, for 160 pts. Only the Infiltrators can, well, infiltrate, but they have the exact same resilience as a 10 man Skitarii unit, for the same point cost (100 pts for 5 Infiltrators with Tasers & Blasters, 100 pts for 10 bare Skitarii). Sure they'll deal some damage the turn they arrive but you better succeed on your 9" charge or you'll get shot/charged the next turn. Ruststalkers suffer the same problem but they're cheaper and don't shoot, they just have a 8" move like the Infiltrators and are susceptible to shooting all the same.

The only somewhat resilient units we have are Kastelan Robots, which are discouraged to move by their own rules (yeah 5+ to Hit if I move ! Oh and the flamer is 21 pts if you thought about that), the Kataphrons which are slow as hell (5", Advance D3), the Dunecrawler which is really good, but you don't want it close to the enemy because efficient CC units will destroy it, or the Dragoons, which are decent and cheap. You'd best run at least 3-4 of them however.

Oh there's the Tech-Priests too but they're supposed to help you artillery in the backfield while your flimsy overpriced stuff go to their deaths on the objectives.

Yes we do need transports, or at least a Scout move in this codex if they really don't want to release a new model (or a new sprue for the Rhino if they're really lazy) if we want our army to play differently than just "Artillery + Imperium for actual useful capping units". For now we have to suffer lists like above with full Onagers, full Kastelan Robots and that awful Cawl.

SilverAlien wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Really? They have been all-stars for me. I usually take 5-6 at 2k. They are usually 1+/4++ on turn one with a 5+ reflect with T7. Generally, aside from things like Lascannons and Dark Lances, I don't sweat losing them. That being said, they do die. And even with my screening units, they get locked up. Always good to bring a variety of options to ensure your whole strategy doesn't hinge on a couple of Kastelan units. I think Dragoons have been the big surprise for me - they are such a useful screen (as opposed to our fragile Skitarii).

You know, looking back at the stats it may just be bad luck. They feel so much easier to kill than onagers, but they aren't really on paper. Maybe that's because they get focus fired more heavily, or end up closer to enemy heavy weapons due to the shorter range of their weapons and my desire to ensure they have a decent killing field. Maybe I just had a bad go with them, hard to say.

the secret to kastelans is big units or screening units at 1000 I only run 2 but I'll also field a patrol of grey knights. I don't even bother with a data smith 18 shots at bs4 kills my buddies bikes hard hard. He made the mistake of deep striking in a chaplain and assault squad behind them..... it was not pretty. They have since been sold

Also you CAN just leave them in defense mode 2+/4++ is. Ice and against meq even without the smith they hit as hard as twin assault cannon razorbacks for roughly the same price fewer wounds but better saves and the invuln is nice


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Anyway back to topic why does admech not have tanks? Like an actual tank. Triarios would be nice but don't the admech make literally all the leman russes? Can we not snag a handful ... or flyers they make all the machines and can't get flyers?

I was hoping for some kind of Onager transport model with the new book but being able to take Rhino's would be just as good. In fact when I read that here several nice converion possibilities came to mind using parts left over from my Onegars.

Existing non Grey Knight models being added to the Grey Knights Codex makes it possible that GW could solve the transport issue without having to create a new kit.

I've never bought a limited edition Codex but if the new AdMech book is only $80 I'd be tempted.

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
I was hoping for some kind of Onager transport model with the new book but being able to take Rhino's would be just as good. In fact when I read that here several nice converion possibilities came to mind using parts left over from my Onegars.

Existing non Grey Knight models being added to the Grey Knights Codex makes it possible that GW could solve the transport issue without having to create a new kit.

I've never bought a limited edition Codex but if the new AdMech book is only $80 I'd be tempted.

why stop at rhinos, land raiders are our namesake arkhan land....

gendoikari87 wrote:

 Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
I was hoping for some kind of Onager transport model with the new book but being able to take Rhino's would be just as good. In fact when I read that here several nice converion possibilities came to mind using parts left over from my Onegars.

Existing non Grey Knight models being added to the Grey Knights Codex makes it possible that GW could solve the transport issue without having to create a new kit.

I've never bought a limited edition Codex but if the new AdMech book is only $80 I'd be tempted.

why stop at rhinos, land raiders are our namesake arkhan land....

Seriously though! Give us Land Raider access!

And then they could do a fun conversion sprue for it giving us Volkite and Phosphor guns on it or something... yea, never going to happen, but a half-man/half-machine can dream, right!?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Yellabelly wrote:
You do realise those Kastelans can't swat a fly in close combat when they are in protector protocol right? If you get charged by a deep striker after you knock them into protector mode, you've got two full game turns of them just standing there like tin punch bags.

They can makes their CC attacks in Protector Protocols. They just can't move.

My mistake! I've misread that rule off the bat and never really read it properly again. Thanks for correcting my stupid comment, my Kastelans won't be quite so helpless in future!

They don't even need upgrades it literally already has mechanicus markings.....

gendoikari87 wrote:
They don't even need upgrades it literally already has mechanicus markings.....

Yep - its a bit odd really.

Yellabelly wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Yellabelly wrote:
You do realise those Kastelans can't swat a fly in close combat when they are in protector protocol right? If you get charged by a deep striker after you knock them into protector mode, you've got two full game turns of them just standing there like tin punch bags.

They can makes their CC attacks in Protector Protocols. They just can't move.

My mistake! I've misread that rule off the bat and never really read it properly again. Thanks for correcting my stupid comment, my Kastelans won't be quite so helpless in future!

yup in cc even in protector they hit like ogryns with ws 4 instead of 3 with twice the wounds +1 str and +1 toughness... not stellar but not a tempting cc target unless you get x2 str and multiple damage

dunecrawlers were originally transport M.U.L.Es and with cawl wanting to bring back old tech/get gak done he could make the transports that admech originally used in the fluff

Wasn't there a decree of the big E that Land Raiders are to be only used by Space Marines?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Seriously though! Give us Land Raider access!

Fluff - mid/late HH the Emperor ordered that Land Raiders be reserved for Adeptus Astartes use only. Rules-wise the Mechanicum Land Raider in the early books (which I'd just converted out of a Land Raider Prometheus) became the Macrocarid Explorator.

 Kandela wrote:
Wasn't there a decree of the big E that Land Raiders are to be only used by Space Marines?

They aren't land raiders, they are macrocarid explorators that happen to use the same stc.

beast_gts wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Seriously though! Give us Land Raider access!

Fluff - mid/late HH the Emperor ordered that Land Raiders be reserved for Adeptus Astartes use only. Rules-wise the Mechanicum Land Raider in the early books (which I'd just converted out of a Land Raider Prometheus) became the Macrocarid Explorator.

where is this from? i don't remember this anywhere?

gendoikari87 wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Seriously though! Give us Land Raider access!

Fluff - mid/late HH the Emperor ordered that Land Raiders be reserved for Adeptus Astartes use only. Rules-wise the Mechanicum Land Raider in the early books (which I'd just converted out of a Land Raider Prometheus) became the Macrocarid Explorator.

where is this from? i don't remember this anywhere?

"With Traitor forces advancing on Terra itself and Loyalist forces facing total defeat, the Emperor decreed that all remaining Land Raiders still in loyal service should be recalled and that the Legiones Astartes, His favoured Space Marines, who stood at the forefront of Terra's defence, be given exclusive use of these powerful war machines."
From wiki: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Land_Raider

Don't remember where it was from, probably from one of the HH books I read.

There is also this: http://web.archive.org/web/20071002030430/http://oz.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/extras/landraiderhistory/default.htm
It's archive to games workshop lore about Land Raiders.