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 Backspacehacker wrote:
This is my biggest turn off to AoS because there is no real tangible world, none of the battles or events are actually meqningful. Before it was like oh if we don't win this battle then this city is going to fall which was home to such and such and has been important to the region because it provides x.

In Aos it's just, here is this massive battle on some plain of existence that won't really matter in the long run because it's never going to be revisited.

In the Old World none of the battles or events were actually meaningful because whenever some threat to the status quo approached, some utter Mary Sue like Teclis or Valten would arise and defeat it.

At least in AoS the outcome of battles can change things, the timeline advances, and the setting isn't completely static.

motski wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
This is my biggest turn off to AoS because there is no real tangible world, none of the battles or events are actually meqningful. Before it was like oh if we don't win this battle then this city is going to fall which was home to such and such and has been important to the region because it provides x.

In Aos it's just, here is this massive battle on some plain of existence that won't really matter in the long run because it's never going to be revisited.

In the Old World none of the battles or events were actually meaningful because whenever some threat to the status quo approached, some utter Mary Sue like Teclis or Valten would arise and defeat it.

At least in AoS the outcome of battles can change things, the timeline advances, and the setting isn't completely static.

Pretty much which also lead to the vampire counts simply making mean faces at the empire like they are relevant or something.

I actually realized a short time ago that my love for the Old World was mostly because it had an established, lived-in feel. It was a world I could imagine being important in-between battles, rather than a setting simply to establish the terrain that would exist on a tabletop.

I would have just as much love for any Realmworld of the Age of Sigmar, if GW could give me enough info to do the same thing. I need a better feel, for instance, of why my Stormcast should feel so driven to protect a kingdom in the Realm of Life than simply "to drive back Chaos and establish a better foothold....obviously".

I need to know why a bunch of Skaven are so intent on undermining such a kingdom, or how the Free People there are threatened constantly by several Orruk warbands raiding their trade routes, etc. Give me a setting of something other than constant war, a setting where I can imagine as potential for a healthy RPG campaign. That's what kept me defending the Old World.

I don't know nothing about the Old World so I can't comment sadly. I don't really care for the fluff on Age of Sigmar, but now that I am getting back I need to reacquaint myself with the new fluff.

That said, who is to say that the Old World is gone? It's only gone if we or the people who love it, let it. We can still have the Old World. With all the bubble worlds (if that is still a thing now) who is to say the is not an Old World bubble?

Or who is to say that Mordenhiem (or what ever the old world cities are) can't be in the Realms we have now? If these Worlds or Realms are suppose to be huge anything can be in them.

So don't let the Old World die. Have some or all your games in the Old World. Don't like Stormcasts? Then don't have them in your world. If you are playing a stranger and they have Stormcasts, then just think to yourself they are an abomination and need to be destroyed.

While GW doesn't support the Old World, doesn't mean we don't have to. After all start up a thread of Age of Sigmar, the Old World. Who knows, maybe Bottle can make up some great stories for us to play with. Kidding there Bottle, but we can take up the mantle and make our own Old World in the Age of Sigmar.

After all, Games Workshop tells us to add in what we want. So if you want it, add it. We have no one to blame but ourselves if we let the Old World die.

Davor wrote:
With all the bubble worlds (if that is still a thing now) who is to say the is not an Old World bubble?

It never was a thing.

Indeed.

Also, I always get a laugh from people who mistake Mordheim as being part of the "current" Old World setting. That place only lasted a few years during the time of the three emperors before the knight orders burnt it to the ground.

And yet "as far as I'm concerned the Old World and it's amazing places like Mordheim are still alive and well" can be heard by the Old Guard.

motski wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
This is my biggest turn off to AoS because there is no real tangible world, none of the battles or events are actually meqningful. Before it was like oh if we don't win this battle then this city is going to fall which was home to such and such and has been important to the region because it provides x.

In Aos it's just, here is this massive battle on some plain of existence that won't really matter in the long run because it's never going to be revisited.

In the Old World none of the battles or events were actually meaningful because whenever some threat to the status quo approached, some utter Mary Sue like Teclis or Valten would arise and defeat it.

At least in AoS the outcome of battles can change things, the timeline advances, and the setting isn't completely static.

Yep, the novels Sword of Justice/vengeance was the worst offender. Great stories and plot but left a ashen taste in my mouth how it ended by being completely neutral on the setting. All the battles, sacrifices and plot-twists were completely worthless in the end as everything went right back to status quo right down to Averland still being leaderless.

I keep going back and forth between two settings for my home games (I only have the wife and a couple friends to game with):

-My Stormcast exist in the Old World. Sigmar arrives during the end times and sends down the Stormcast to support the Empire, like Asguardians teleporting down in Thor.

Or,

-Just have games set in newly formed/resettled kingdoms in the Realm of Ghyran (Life), which would really best resemble a "normal" Old World-styled setting.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I actually realized a short time ago that my love for the Old World was mostly because it had an established, lived-in feel. It was a world I could imagine being important in-between battles, rather than a setting simply to establish the terrain that would exist on a tabletop.

I would have just as much love for any Realmworld of the Age of Sigmar, if GW could give me enough info to do the same thing. I need a better feel, for instance, of why my Stormcast should feel so driven to protect a kingdom in the Realm of Life than simply "to drive back Chaos and establish a better foothold....obviously".

I need to know why a bunch of Skaven are so intent on undermining such a kingdom, or how the Free People there are threatened constantly by several Orruk warbands raiding their trade routes, etc. Give me a setting of something other than constant war, a setting where I can imagine as potential for a healthy RPG campaign. That's what kept me defending the Old World.

I think the problem with AoS as a setting is that it still feels too... Creation Myth-y?

Like, Warhammer Fantasy's Old World, for all of its faults, still felt like a lived-in setting. There where cities, towns, villages, borders between different countries, politics both internal and external...

To me, AoS's setting feels like it's part of some polytheistic religions creation myth, where the future God-King and his sibling slew the primordial Ur-Gods and forged the World from their remains: blood became oceans, bones became mountains, hairs became plains of grass, etc. It needs to be brought down from the 40k-level scope and tell smaller stories, to really make you care about the people who live in the Realms; right now, it feels like Sigmar's having a stick-measuring competition with the Chaos Gods and little else. But those are just my 0.02$.

PS: Can we have some new Chaos Marauder units, please? The Norsca Campaign in Total War: Warhammer is the most invested I've been in Chaos since, crap, the Storm of Chaos before it Went off the rails stupid.

Wulfrik for the True Everchosen!

Read City of Secrets, Daemon of the Deep, the recent Blood Auction short story or just look at Shinros' Hammerhal lore review. Then there's Josh's Eight Lamentations to look forward too.

 Mangod wrote:

To me, AoS's setting feels like it's part of some polytheistic religions creation myth, where the future God-King and his sibling slew the primordial Ur-Gods and forged the World from their remains: blood became oceans, bones became mountains, hairs became plains of grass, etc. [/b]

See, to me this sounds awesome! I love norse myths and Tolkiens Silmarillion far more than say Game of Thrones. As a setting for battles with minis on the table top I see a lot of value in both and GW has been putting in more time on the smaller scale stories in an effort to give folks who want/need that side of things something to dig in to and indeed product to buy such as the Hammerhal box and Black Library novels and short stories. It's not always the case but I think a lot of people have simply missed out on or ignore the efforts made to flesh out the realms for whatever reason. The narrative is slowly developing through releases, and I for one love that approach. In the Realmgate Wars books new races and remade old factions were released as they were introduced to the setting story wise and I believe this will continue into the future.

As you say just my two cents though

 Mangod wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I actually realized a short time ago that my love for the Old World was mostly because it had an established, lived-in feel. It was a world I could imagine being important in-between battles, rather than a setting simply to establish the terrain that would exist on a tabletop.

I would have just as much love for any Realmworld of the Age of Sigmar, if GW could give me enough info to do the same thing. I need a better feel, for instance, of why my Stormcast should feel so driven to protect a kingdom in the Realm of Life than simply "to drive back Chaos and establish a better foothold....obviously".

I need to know why a bunch of Skaven are so intent on undermining such a kingdom, or how the Free People there are threatened constantly by several Orruk warbands raiding their trade routes, etc. Give me a setting of something other than constant war, a setting where I can imagine as potential for a healthy RPG campaign. That's what kept me defending the Old World.

I think the problem with AoS as a setting is that it still feels too... Creation Myth-y?

Like, Warhammer Fantasy's Old World, for all of its faults, still felt like a lived-in setting. There where cities, towns, villages, borders between different countries, politics both internal and external...

To me, AoS's setting feels like it's part of some polytheistic religions creation myth, where the future God-King and his sibling slew the primordial Ur-Gods and forged the World from their remains: blood became oceans, bones became mountains, hairs became plains of grass, etc. It needs to be brought down from the 40k-level scope and tell smaller stories, to really make you care about the people who live in the Realms; right now, it feels like Sigmar's having a stick-measuring competition with the Chaos Gods and little else. But those are just my 0.02$.

PS: Can we have some new Chaos Marauder units, please? The Norsca Campaign in Total War: Warhammer is the most invested I've been in Chaos since, crap, the Storm of Chaos before it Went off the rails stupid.

Wulfrik for the True Everchosen!

It sounds like you haven't seen much of the fluff to come out since Realmgate Wars. Most of what you mention about the "smaller stories" is starting to happen with newer releases. We're even getting new named characters now! As mentioned, pick up City of Secrets. It's a fantastic novel, and helps to focus and ground the setting quite a bit.

Also, 100% agree with you post script. The Norsca campaign was awesome, and makes me want the Forgeworld mammoth to come back! I'm starting on a marauder-heavy monster hunter themed army as soon as I finish painting my Sylvaneth.

I haven't read up much on the AoS lore, but I don't see how you couldn't have had both, where the Warhammer World was just one of many parallel worlds or planes, kind how the worlds in Moorcock's books interact with one another, or how the multiverse in Magic the Gathering works.

There was no need to discard the Old World in my opinion.

I got to say though, the Warhammer World had a number of problems. Most of the nations of Warhammer never left their home continent, yet we were supposed to believe war could occur between Bretonnia and Lizardmen, or Chaos Dwarves and Dark Elves.

There was no need to discard the Old World in my opinion. 

Meh, once the Copyrights and high fantasy focused releases mangled it I could see how GW would want to start fresh rather than hang on to a dwindling, and increasingly unhappy, fanbase.

Also, 100% agree with you post script. The Norsca campaign was awesome, and makes me want the Forgeworld mammoth to come back! I'm starting on a marauder-heavy monster hunter themed army as soon as I finish painting my Sylvaneth.

I hope we see that in the projects thread.

Think you could use a mix of Bonesplitterz allied with allied Beastclaw raiders for a proxy ruleset? (Probably have marauders with javelins as Savage orruk archers)

Baron Klatz wrote:

Also, 100% agree with your post script. The Norsca campaign was awesome, and makes me want the Forgeworld mammoth to come back! I'm starting on a marauder-heavy monster hunter themed army as soon as I finish painting my Sylvaneth.

I hope we see that in the projects thread.

Think you could use a mix of Bonesplitterz allied with allied Beastclaw raiders for a proxy ruleset? (Probably have marauders with javelins as Savage orruk archers)

Oh, you will

I've thought about playing them as Counts-As Morboys for the bonuses against monsters. Using a Thundertusk and kitbashing for a Mammoth actually wouldn't be a bad idea, now that I think of it. I don't want to drag this thread any further off-topic than I already have. Check here for the list I've come up with so far.

I miss the old world too but Its not like its hard to imagine most of the current range of Age Of Sigmar being in the old world post end times. Stormcasts coming down to save the world after Archaon got buffed up by the chaos gods for killing Karl Franz, new Sylvaneth units being created as athel Loren's answer to all the madness. Blood Bound models were always gunna fit in. dunno about Kharadron though maybe a Dwarf hold decided to get the hell outta the ground or something, Point is its easy to do when you use abit of "fantasy logic"

Darathar wrote:
I Its not like its hard to imagine most of the current range of Age Of Sigmar being in the old world post end times.

That is what I say. Thing is for what ever reason, people don't want to use their imagination and be happy but rather just be miserable. So what if GW says that the world of Sigmar is in the future of the old world. When people play their games they can say it's thousands of years ago before Sigmar. Why they won't do it, I can never understand.

I prefer to think of the Mortal Realms as a continuation of the Old World.

Bear with me, but at the end of the End Times a spell was cast that caused the Old World to "end."

But, on the other side, in a realm fantastical and magical and impossible to define, we find all of the same species familiar on the old world. The same humans, undead, Orcs, elves, dwarves, etc.

Unless we're to believe that all mortal things originate in the realms of magic, which seems unlikely (we see numerous species native to the realms now, not the least of which are Star Drakes and such) then all of this came from the Old World to the magic realms, thus creating the "Mortal Realms."

So, rather than thinking of the old world as blown up, imagine the winds of magic that had been blowing into the Old World and bringing Chaos were reversed, and it peeled apart and sucked the Old World into the magical realms.

Sigmar returned through the portal to find his world a burned cinder - but it was only the molten core. There were survivors of the Old World's destruction, who found themselves lost and transplanted, but who carried on. The soldiers of the Free People's could, if they had decent records, trace their lineage back to a peasant in Nuln or a lady in Brettonia. The stones in the mightiest empire's castles may date back to The World That was.

And, in designs like the Steam Tank, we know Old World knowledge carried on, in some form.

So, build your Empire towns, stock them with old-school Empire troops, and call your people citizens of "New Hochland," who proudly tell tale of the day the sky caught fire, and Sigmar delivered them to this blessed land, along with several kilometers of random farmland and village, and smacked it down directly next to a sun that is really a dragon chained to a rock, just as He planned for them.

Aos is a continuation lore wise it's in the same universe. The warhammer world is one world is the great void.

Oggthrok wrote:
I prefer to think of the Mortal Realms as a continuation of the Old World.

Bear with me, but at the end of the End Times a spell was cast that caused the Old World to "end."

But, on the other side, in a realm fantastical and magical and impossible to define, we find all of the same species familiar on the old world. The same humans, undead, Orcs, elves, dwarves, etc.

Unless we're to believe that all mortal things originate in the realms of magic, which seems unlikely (we see numerous species native to the realms now, not the least of which are Star Drakes and such) then all of this came from the Old World to the magic realms, thus creating the "Mortal Realms."

So, rather than thinking of the old world as blown up, imagine the winds of magic that had been blowing into the Old World and bringing Chaos were reversed, and it peeled apart and sucked the Old World into the magical realms.

Sigmar returned through the portal to find his world a burned cinder - but it was only the molten core. There were survivors of the Old World's destruction, who found themselves lost and transplanted, but who carried on. The soldiers of the Free People's could, if they had decent records, trace their lineage back to a peasant in Nuln or a lady in Brettonia. The stones in the mightiest empire's castles may date back to The World That was.

And, in designs like the Steam Tank, we know Old World knowledge carried on, in some form.

So, build your Empire towns, stock them with old-school Empire troops, and call your people citizens of "New Hochland," who proudly tell tale of the day the sky caught fire, and Sigmar delivered them to this blessed land, along with several kilometers of random farmland and village, and smacked it down directly next to a sun that is really a dragon chained to a rock, just as He planned for them.

Well said. Very well said indeed. Great post.

Indeed a very good post and also basically what happened.

Only difference is that it was the gods who brought the lost mortal souls from the Old World to the realms. (Which at the time before Sigmar came were ruled by the God-beasts and their own pantheon. So we kinda invaded and took their homes because ours got destroyed.)

Besides that, as of the new short story that's a prelude to Eight Lamentations, some races made it to the realms themselves during the world's ending. One being the dwarfs of Zhufbar who made a clan in the realms first.

Also, you hit the nail on the head with the legacies being passed down. Sigmar has a library dedicated to learn from the-world-that-was and is a reason why Freeguild armies have Old World heraldry despite the names of those symbols being changed down the centuries.

Baron Klatz wrote:
Besides that, as of the new short story that's a prelude to Eight Lamentations, some races made it to the realms themselves during the world's ending. One being the dwarfs of Zhufbar who made a clan in the realms first..

Is that in the Eight Lamentations book, or a separate short story?

Auction of Blood short story.

 nels1031 wrote:

Baron Klatz wrote:
Besides that, as of the new short story that's a prelude to Eight Lamentations, some races made it to the realms themselves during the world's ending. One being the dwarfs of Zhufbar who made a clan in the realms first..

Is that in the Eight Lamentations book, or a separate short story?

It is in the main book, the chief ironweld officer in Excelsis comments that his clan, according to history, dug their way from the Old world from a location that a few have identified as Zhufbar (a lake between mountains)

Whoops! Thought it was the Short Story.

That'll teach me to shoot my mouth off without more info.

(Also, saw you talking about Chaos dwarfs in that forum. They were actually confirmed at the beginning of AoS as the "Forgefathers" who built the dreadholds.)

I am feeling better about the loss of the Old World by moving on and looking at the AoS setting as one of those few RPG settings where instead of finding ancient magical weapons, or hearing the lore of how cities and heroes were built thousands of years ago in a "Golden Age", the whole point is to play in a setting right in the middle or even beginning of it's golden age. Which the Age of Sigmar pretty much is, despite there being an "Age of Myth, etc".

Rather than living out their days in a decaying husk of a world and hearing stories of how everything was better "X" years ago, it's interesting to see how now that the Realmgate War period is over, the fluff of the game is that the "Good Guys" are actually on the upswing, rather than simply treading water.

I like to imagine the theoretical settings which would look back hundreds or even thousands of years on the legendary days of the Realmgate Wars, and the building of the great cities/Empires of each of the Realms, like how originally things were said about the kingdoms that existed before the Scouring that Chaos performed on all the Realms.

Firstly, I don't miss the old world that much. The setting really boiled down to: Chaos is knocking on the Empire's door, good guys are either dying races or -just- holding on. Plus the 8th edition dwarf release soured me- no new stuff outside of 1/2 a dual-kit. That went into Thorgrim's bumber book of grudges. What I miss most though is the Badlands and Border Princes. The fiefdoms there and how it was almost entirely orc and gobbo territory.

That being said, since AoS has found its feet, there's a lot to get your teeth into. The mortal realms offer a lot more for personalised armies and fluff,as opposed to "Minor dwarf hold Karak XXXXXXX" or some unknown empire province.

Not to mention the character development in AoS- particularly with Sigmar, Manfredd and Nagash.

My home skirmish setting is basically the Border Princes, but on Ghyran. Now that the setting is in a form or restoration after the Realmgate wars, my Forces of Order are pushing outward from a newly built kingdom based around a Realmgate, fighting the same old familiar expansionist fight against tribes of Orcs and Goblins, while warbands of Skaven can attack from under the city. Although this time with interesting things like an entire world of forests, floating islands, and the threat of gigantic unknown beasts.

But unlike the Old World, now it's possible (and logical) for there to be friction not only with Sylvaneth who call those forests home and don't like what the humans are doing, but maybe even a small kingdom of Seraphon that can actually be local, instead of somehow travelling all the way to the Empire from Lustria or across the desert from the Southlands (I'm ignoring the entire psychic ghosts made of stardust thing to go with traditional Lizardmen, though perhaps their own kingdom is based around a crashed sky-temple, for fun).

Instead of ignoring their Order daemon status use it as the reason they're there building a kingdom and fully flesh and blood is due to finding a lake of pure life essence that granted them their new bodies.

From there you can add that daemons regularly seek the lake to corrupt it and gain their own full bodies, it's connection to life has the consequence of connecting to death as a balance thus under the right circumstances acts as a gateway for baleful undead to cross through and certainly mortals of nearby kingdoms and tribes would covet such a powerful source of magic.

Good idea! See, little things that can act as a focus for the fluff behind games is something AoS needs some more of to ease the pain of loosing all those decades of Old World fluff.

Oh indeed, I absolutely love detailed lore like that and AoS can be crammed full of it.

Fortunately between books like Eight Lamentations, more loreful games like Hammerhal and the upcoming rpg I think we will be getting a lot more of that.