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 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think outside of conscripts/scions. Harlequin troopes are the best. All 5 can take Fusion pistols and caress. Damage potential is off the charts. They also have 4++ saves. Making them somewhat resilient for their toughness level.

This...made me laugh. 4++ is great, but on a 1 wound T3 model that costs over 20ppm? Brimstones pull it off because they are so cheap. You can get 6 of them for the cost of 1 Harlie with Fusion Pistol.

-

Indeed, Harlies die fast if the enemy can target them in the shooting phase. They have Starweavers for fast deployment. But if two or more Harlie units charge in the same turn, the enemy can spend CPs to let one enemy unit strike before one of the Harlie units strikes. This can be a severe downside in competitive play.

 Generalstoner wrote:
Necron Warriors, Guard conscripts and Tau Fire Warriors.

"Fire warriors, warriors"

Lolwut? Those are horrible. Scions are the better than either of those.

Custodes.

Another vote for Custodes! Tied with Conscripts as best objective camper in the game in my book.

 CplPunishment wrote:


Vox is a ripoff now. Save yourself 45 pts and buy another company commander instead for more orders..

I don't completely agree with that. Voxs give you a lot more flexibility. Say you have a few heavy weapons squads set up together in a certain location, you can set up a company commander nearby and as long as there is an infantry unit with a Vox babysitting them you can send your orders further to other units that may be more in need of them.
That's what I have done currently. Two areas with a concentration of HWSs 1 CC and 1 infantry squad with vox, and a main battle line with all the other infantry squads. When I've needed to I've been able to send all my orders to the main battle line because of the vox network.

An extra couple of platoon commanders would give me a couple more orders but not as high flexibility. So 6 of one half a dozen of the other (plus saves me elites slots :-p).

Audustum wrote:
Another vote for Custodes! Tied with Conscripts as best objective camper in the game in my book.

Aren't custodes hideously expensive?

Also, as far as I can see, they can't take any transports except for the also very expensive custodes land raider.

Niiru wrote:

Aren't custodes hideously expensive?

Also, as far as I can see, they can't take any transports except for the also very expensive custodes land raider.

They're slow and pretty expensive, yeah. But they're stupidly durable. They pay 18 points per T5 2+/3++ wound. That is, they're more durable per point than Conscripts in the face of bolter fire -- they're as durable as Brimstone Horrors. They're significantly more durable than regular Marines against Heavy Bolters -- in cover they're more durable than Conscripts outside of cover vs Heavy Bolters. You would ordinarily expect multi-wound models to be weak to multi-damage weapons, but they're really not. They are significantly more durable than regular one-wound Marines and basically all vehicles vs overcharged plasma. They are only slightly less durable per point than tactical Marines in the face of lascannon fire. Without mortal wounds, they're very hard to shift.

They shoot very poorly, but they fight pretty well for their cost. They're very good at killing characters because the characters can't get through their invulnerable save and they're putting out a ton of S5 AP-3 d3 damage attacks.

Their Land Raider is like 8 points more than a regular Land Raider and has BS2+, a 5++, and a 6+ FNP.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Aren't custodes hideously expensive?

Also, as far as I can see, they can't take any transports except for the also very expensive custodes land raider.

They're slow and pretty expensive, yeah. But they're stupidly durable. They pay 18 points per T5 2+/3++ wound. That is, they're more durable per point than Conscripts in the face of bolter fire -- they're as durable as Brimstone Horrors. They're significantly more durable than regular Marines against Heavy Bolters -- in cover they're more durable than Conscripts outside of cover vs Heavy Bolters. You would ordinarily expect multi-wound models to be weak to multi-damage weapons, but they're really not. They are significantly more durable than regular one-wound Marines and basically all vehicles vs overcharged plasma. They are only slightly less durable per point than tactical Marines in the face of lascannon fire. Without mortal wounds, they're very hard to shift.

They shoot very poorly, but they fight pretty well for their cost. They're very good at killing characters because the characters can't get through their invulnerable save and they're putting out a ton of S5 AP-3 d3 damage attacks.

Their Land Raider is like 8 points more than a regular Land Raider and has BS2+, a 5++, and a 6+ FNP.

Ahh, true, that does end up sounding pretty durable put like that haha.

Grey Knight Strike Squads. They're not too bad, cost wise, considering what you get. For 105 pts, you get a 5 man squad with choice of force weapons, 3+ T4 deepstriking psychic unit that knows both babysmite and another power. Very spammable, lots of shooting, and good CC capability.

This is discounting units that can be used as hordes (Conscripts, Boyz, Cultists, etc). With the way buffs work, being force multipliers and all, horde units are capable of punching well above their weight. Not that I think there's a problem with that. I like seeing a big sea of models on the table. It's cinematic.

As far as Custodes, you generally won't move them off an objective without some MAJOR brute force. They are essentially buffed up Paladins without the psyker stuff. They are expensive points-wise, but well worth their points. Some of the best elite style units in the game. They will absolutely murderdeathkill about any unit in the game in CQC.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I mean, people are talking like Noise Marines are solid choices, and Sisters make them look like crap. 19 points gets you a Noise Marine with 3 S4 shots at 24", while 20 points gets you 2 Sisters (twice as many wounds) with 3 shots at 24". The Noise Marines ignore cover, but the Sisters get double the firepower inside 12", which seems like a much bigger deal. Otherwise, I guess the Noise Marines get to make a single S4 shot when they die? And they're better on the charge, though in a sustained engagement the Sisters' bolt pistols and more wounds make them better in CC.

Noise marines when they die get to shot the weapon they are carrying, so if he has a sonic blaster he gets 3 shots when he dies, but he has to fire the bolt pistol if he wants to shot someone he is in close combat with when he dies.

So normally what you do is when one dies in close combat you shot something outside of the combat so you can shot the sonic blaster. Also noise marines have bolt pistols too and always hit first in combat so I fail to see how sisters are better in subsequent rounds, as noise marines get to hit first in both players turns then shot the opponent with there bolt pistol.

10 sisters (divided into 2 squads) = 102pts which gives you 14 bolter shots at long range and 28 at short range, in combat you get 12 str3 attacks. Durability wise you have 10 t3 3+ wounds.
5 Noise Marines = 107 which gives you 12 ignores cover bolter shots, and either d3 str8 ap-2 Dd3 damage ignores cover shots or, 1d6 str4 ap-1 D1 shots, in combat noise marines have 11 str4 attacks. Durability wise you have 5 t4 2+ wounds.

So before we bring in special abilities which noise marines have allot of special abilities, noise marines are superior at both long range shooting, close combat, dealing with vehicles, monsters and units camping in cover. (because they have an actual heavy weapon and ignore cover)

Noise marines however are inferior at close range shooting and I think 10 t3 3+wounds are better than 5 t4 3+ ones (though I would argue noise marines generally have a 2+ since there role is to camp objectives which people generally place in cover) while sisters normally advance up the board into 12in range.

Noise marines also have the ability to always hit first in close combat, which allows them to sometimes hit before nasty squishes like orks, genestealers, daemons during a massed charge, they also get to shot there weapons upon death which sister don't.

(PS I'm not saying sisters are bad, they are definitely one of the best troops in the game)

 Tsol wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:
I'm having a lot of luck with my Thousand Sons Rubric Marines. The potential to do 4 mortal wounds a turn is nice. The possibility of having a 2+ save verses a lot of attacks really keeps them alive, and the Inv save really helps a lot. I know some people complain about how much they cost, but they have served me well

I personally think once the 1k sunz codex comes out and gives the army a couple buffs, that Rubric Marines will be possibly the best line infantry in the game. Right now they are close but not quite there. They still need some sort of buff or deterant for heavy weapons like heavy grav which turn them into slabs. But against most other weapons, they are like a fething brick wall

That's been the beauty on Rubric Marines, They are my troops so people look at them as such. Using heavier weapons on my Rubrics means that those weapons are not being used on my terminators, or some of the other heavier hitters. If you leave them alone, they will keep chewing through units, if you shoot them with Anti-Infantry they shrug most of it off, if you shoot them with MEQ or tank killers that means those units are not getting hit. They are like a Distract-O-Fex in troop slot form.

Conscripts, Genestealers, Boyz

 Rydria wrote:
Noise marines when they die get to shot the weapon they are carrying, so if he has a sonic blaster he gets 3 shots when he dies, but he has to fire the bolt pistol if he wants to shot someone he is in close combat with when he dies.

You may want to re-read the general shooting rules to see how to apply the Noise Marines' Music of the Apocalypse. It's not how you expect it to work, but the rules seem unambiguous that a Noise Marine with a Sonic Blaster only gets 1 S4 shot when he dies. He gets to make "a shooting attack" -- that's one dice. Normally a model with an Assault 3 gun gets to make 3 attacks with it.

So normally what you do is when one dies in close combat you shot something outside of the combat so you can shot the sonic blaster. Also noise marines have bolt pistols too and always hit first in combat so I fail to see how sisters are better in subsequent rounds, as noise marines get to hit first in both players turns then shot the opponent with there bolt pistol.

Noise Marines are generally going to fare worse than equal points of Sisters when close to the enemy. You can run some examples if you don't believe this. Obviously if our unit gets to charge, the Noise Marines are coming out way behind -- every 20 points of Sisters is putting out 6 S4 shots before any blows are exchanged, then getting 2 WS4+ S3 attacks in each subsequent Fight phase and 2 BS3+ S4 pistol shots in each of their later Shooting phases. Every 19 points of Noise Marines is getting only 3 S4 shots before charging, then 2 WS3+ S4 attacks and 1 BS3+ S4 pistol shot later on. The Noise Marines don't even catch up to the Sisters' pre-charge shooting until their second Fight phase. It's true that if our unit gets charged, the Noise Marines look a little better at first. The Sisters' Overwatch is twice as good, amounting to 2 extra WS4+ S4 attack in expected damage, whereas the Noise Marines only get 1. Then the Noise Marines get 2 WS3+ S4 attacks compared to the Sisters' 2 WS4+ S3 attacks. The Noise Marines come out very slightly ahead vs MEQs after accounting for Overwatch. But then the Sisters do just as well as the Noise Marines in their own turn, since the Sisters get 2 bolt pistol shots for every 1 that the Noise Marines get.

You're also not accounting for how much easier the Noise Marines are to kill. The above shows that Sisters are much better on the charge and comparable when defending even if you assume that they're not taking any hits themselves. But Noise Marines are far more fragile than Sisters. If our models take 18 S4 hits, 3 Noise Marines -- 57 points' worth -- expect to die. Our unit just lost 9 shots at range and 6 attacks in CC, plus 3 bolt pistols. 18 S4 hits expects to kill 4 Sisters -- somewhere between 36 and 44 points' worth -- and obviously we're going to take the ones that just have regular bolters as casualties first. This means that, at range or in CC, the Sisters are tending to get more attacks in subsequent rounds just because they're not dying as quickly.

10 sisters (divided into 2 squads) = 102pts which gives you 14 bolter shots at long range and 28 at short range, in combat you get 12 str3 attacks. Durability wise you have 10 t3 3+ wounds.
5 Noise Marines = 107 which gives you 12 ignores cover bolter shots, and either d3 str8 ap-2 Dd3 damage ignores cover shots or, 1d6 str4 ap-1 D1 shots, in combat noise marines have 11 str4 attacks. Durability wise you have 5 t4 2+ wounds.

So before we bring in special abilities which noise marines have allot of special abilities, noise marines are superior at both long range shooting, close combat, dealing with vehicles, monsters and units camping in cover. (because they have an actual heavy weapon and ignore cover)

Noise marines however are inferior at close range shooting and I think 10 t3 3+wounds are better than 5 t4 3+ ones (though I would argue noise marines generally have a 2+ since there role is to camp objectives which people generally place in cover) while sisters normally advance up the board into 12in range.

Noise marines also have the ability to always hit first in close combat, which allows them to sometimes hit before nasty squishes like orks, genestealers, daemons during a massed charge, they also get to shot there weapons upon death which sister don't.

(PS I'm not saying sisters are bad, they are definitely one of the best troops in the game)

I don't think this is quite right. A 51 point Battle Sister squad has 5 models with 3 storm bolters and 2 bolters. 2 units will have 16/32 shots. In a fight they get 12 S3 attacks, but also 10 bolt pistol shots if still stuck in their own Shooting phase. 4 Noise Marines with sonic blasters and 1 with a blastmaster is 111 points, and they have 3+ saves. We could make the points even by adding an 11th Sister somewhere, but of course you wouldn't generally do this.

The Noise Marines are significantly worse at long-range shooting against any sort of infantry other than 3+ or 4+ saves in cover. They're only just as good as the Sisters against 4+ saves in cover. They only come out notably ahead against 3+ saves in cover -- this is really the one thing they're good at. The Sisters are way better against anything outside of cover. The Noise Marines are only about 15% better against T7 3+ multi-wound, per point. Of course, if we wanted to equip a Sisters squad to be better able to deal with vehicles, that's not hard to do.

And the Sisters' durability is still a huge deal. Sure, Noise Marines camped in cover on an objective are more durable against small arms than Sisters advancing up the field outside of cover, but that's a weird comparison. You could use Sisters in exactly the same way as you want to use the Noise Marines, and they'd do a better job at it because they'd have their own 2+ saves and they shoot much better at things advancing up the field outside of cover. It's just that you have even better uses for them that involve trading away some durability for more firepower. Used similarly, Noise Marines are going to lose more points' worth of models much faster than Sisters and so will become much worse at their job.

Striking first in CC is kind of nice. It's pretty situational, though. In general the Sisters' massively better Overwatch is probably going to do more to protect them from CC than the Noise Marines' ability to strike first -- they always get the equivalent of an extra WS4+ S4 attack when charged compared to the Noise Marines sometimes being able to make their normal 2 attacks earlier than they otherwise would.

How about plague marines they can get pretty nice weapons in the CSM codex and most likely have same or more weapon Options incoming DG codex. Do you Guys think that they could be top troop choices?

Custodes...

They're slow and pretty expensive, yeah. But they're stupidly durable. They pay 18 points per T5 2+/3++ wound.

But this computation has a flaw, since multiwound weapons can end their lifes rather easily if they go through.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Custodes...

They're slow and pretty expensive, yeah. But they're stupidly durable. They pay 18 points per T5 2+/3++ wound.

But this computation has a flaw, since multiwound weapons can end their lifes rather easily if they go through.

No, I was considering that when talking about their durability in the face of plasma and lascannon fire. Plasma is particularly bad against them because they have 3 wounds, so a volley of overcharged plasma shots risks overkilling a model. A single plasma gun mixed in with a squad of bolters does better, but it's still nothing special. Even against a lascannon, that 3++ is great, and makes Custodes about as durable per-point as a basic tactical Marine, which is obviously not a very appealing target for a lascannon. Plus, though I didn't try to include this, saving them from a lascannon wound is a really strong use of the re-roll stratagem.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Custodes...

They're slow and pretty expensive, yeah. But they're stupidly durable. They pay 18 points per T5 2+/3++ wound.

But this computation has a flaw, since multiwound weapons can end their lifes rather easily if they go through.

With a 3++ they're still going to be pretty resistant to multi-wound weapons though (since most tend to have few shot and rely instead on good AP). And 3-wounds makes them a lot harder to kill with plasma and such.

edit

First i'm going to apologize for replying at 4am with no sleep that was an awful idea.

Dionysodorus wrote:
You may want to re-read the general shooting rules to see how to apply the Noise Marines' Music of the Apocalypse. It's not how you expect it to work, but the rules seem unambiguous that a Noise Marine with a Sonic Blaster only gets 1 S4 shot when he dies. He gets to make "a shooting attack" -- that's one dice. Normally a model with an Assault 3 gun gets to make 3 attacks with it.

Most people I've talked to on here and other forums consider a shooting attack to be firing the weapon.

Shooting attack = how many attacks the weapon profile has. (But we could be wrong)

Dionysodorus wrote:
Noise Marines are generally going to fare worse than equal points of Sisters when close to the enemy. You can run some examples if you don't believe this. Obviously if our unit gets to charge, the Noise Marines are coming out way behind -- every 20 points of Sisters is putting out 6 S4 shots before any blows are exchanged, then getting 2 WS4+ S3 attacks in each subsequent Fight phase and 2 BS3+ S4 pistol shots in each of their later Shooting phases. Every 19 points of Noise Marines is getting only 3 S4 shots before charging, then 2 WS3+ S4 attacks and 1 BS3+ S4 pistol shot later on. The Noise Marines don't even catch up to the Sisters' pre-charge shooting until their second Fight phase. It's true that if our unit gets charged, the Noise Marines look a little better at first. The Sisters' Overwatch is twice as good, amounting to 2 extra WS4+ S4 attack in expected damage, whereas the Noise Marines only get 1. Then the Noise Marines get 2 WS3+ S4 attacks compared to the Sisters' 2 WS4+ S3 attacks. The Noise Marines come out very slightly ahead vs MEQs after accounting for Overwatch. But then the Sisters do just as well as the Noise Marines in their own turn, since the Sisters get 2 bolt pistol shots for every 1 that the Noise Marines get. 

You're also not accounting for how much easier the Noise Marines are to kill. The above shows that Sisters are much better on the charge and comparable when defending even if you assume that they're not taking any hits themselves. But Noise Marines are far more fragile than Sisters. If our models take 18 S4 hits, 3 Noise Marines -- 57 points' worth -- expect to die. Our unit just lost 9 shots at range and 6 attacks in CC, plus 3 bolt pistols. 18 S4 hits expects to kill 4 Sisters -- somewhere between 36 and 44 points' worth -- and obviously we're going to take the ones that just have regular bolters as casualties first. This means that, at range or in CC, the Sisters are tending to get more attacks in subsequent rounds just because they're not dying as quickly.

Those 57 pts of noise marines are accomplishing something even when they die while the sister aren't so even though you're losing only 6 attacks (2 bolters and 2 storm bolters) to the noise marines 3 sonic blaster, the sonic blaster marines are still getting to shot upon death.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't think this is quite right. A 51 point Battle Sister squad has 5 models with 3 storm bolters and 2 bolters. 2 units will have 16/32 shots. In a fight they get 12 S3 attacks, but also 10 bolt pistol shots if still stuck in their own Shooting phase. 4 Noise Marines with sonic blasters and 1 with a blastmaster is 111 points, and they have 3+ saves. We could make the points even by adding an 11th Sister somewhere, but of course you wouldn't generally do this.

In my half asleep state I forgot about the sister superior's combi-bolters even though I pointed them up that was my bad. As for the noise marines I have no idea how I messed that up.

Dionysodorus wrote:
The Noise Marines are significantly worse at long-range shooting against any sort of infantry other than 3+ or 4+ saves in cover. They're only just as good as the Sisters against 4+ saves in cover. They only come out notably ahead against 3+ saves in cover -- this is really the one thing they're good at. The Sisters are way better against anything outside of cover. The Noise Marines are only about 15% better against T7 3+ multi-wound, per point. Of course, if we wanted to equip a Sisters squad to be better able to deal with vehicles, that's not hard to do.

I don't see how they are significantly worse if you use the inferior setting of the blast master you are averaging an equal number of shots to the sisters while being better against targets in cover. Noise marines can also split fire the blastmaster on the krak missile setting which averages 2 shots.

So it is 16 bolters vs 12 bolters + 2 krak missiles. (Noise Marines win)
or 16 bolters vs 12 bolters + 4 bolt rifles (Noise Marines win)

Dionysodorus wrote:
And the Sisters' durability is still a huge deal. Sure, Noise Marines camped in cover on an objective are more durable against small arms than Sisters advancing up the field outside of cover, but that's a weird comparison. You could use Sisters in exactly the same way as you want to use the Noise Marines, and they'd do a better job at it because they'd have their own 2+ saves and they shoot much better at things advancing up the field outside of cover. It's just that you have even better uses for them that involve trading away some durability for more firepower. Used similarly, Noise Marines are going to lose more points' worth of models much faster than Sisters and so will become much worse at their job.

If you aren't moving the sisters up the board though you aren't playing to there strengths while camping with noise marines is playing to there strength.

I have already pointed out that sisters are significantly superior at short range shooting so there isn't a point in talking about that.

quote=Dionysodorus 737182 9569789 null]Striking first in CC is kind of nice. It's pretty situational, though. In general the Sisters' massively better Overwatch is probably going to do more to protect them from CC than the Noise Marines' ability to strike first -- they always get the equivalent of an extra WS4+ S4 attack when charged compared to the Noise Marines sometimes being able to make their normal 2 attacks earlier than they otherwise would.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
For objective camping, Space Marine Scouts with Camo Cloaks are pretty sweet

Tacticals do it better. And yes, I know the less knowledgable people in the game would say otherwise, but it's objectively true.

For one point less than a scout with camo cloak, you can camp a tactical on an objective and get the same defensive result against shooting, while having superior protection against assault. So, point per point, tacs are better at this than camo scouts. Toss snipers on the scouts and sure, but then they become even more expensive, and most people think snipers suck anyway. A tactical squad with a lascannon is better protected than camo scouts with sniper rifles, and arguably has better utility-- for the same price.

I do think the baseline battle sister is pretty good. She's basically a min-maxed budget tactical marine, subtracting points from stats that matter in situations the tactical marine already doesn't want to be in and trading it for points savings. Plus the minimum size battle sister squad gets full special weapon privileges, unlike the tactical which require full-sized squads.

Thing is: they're also the basis for their fast attack and heavy support units and those are much more desirable. You aren't likely to see sisters players taking more BSS than the minimum neccesary, while noise marines, berserkers and conscripts have a utility of their own that make people want to take them.

Whoever priced the current camo cloaks is stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
For objective camping, Space Marine Scouts with Camo Cloaks are pretty sweet

Tacticals do it better. And yes, I know the less knowledgable people in the game would say otherwise, but it's objectively true.

For one point less than a scout with camo cloak, you can camp a tactical on an objective and get the same defensive result against shooting, while having superior protection against assault. So, point per point, tacs are better at this than camo scouts. Toss snipers on the scouts and sure, but then they become even more expensive, and most people think snipers suck anyway. A tactical squad with a lascannon is better protected as camo scouts with sniper rifles, and arguably has better utility-- for the same price.

Sniper Rifles + ML is MUCH better utility. You flatout ignored that post though.

 Melissia wrote:
Tacticals do it better. And yes, I know the less knowledgable people in the game would say otherwise, but it's objectively true.

Who still says this? Are they just reiterating old advice from 7th edition?

Tactical squads are bad at everything. Stop pushing your agenda Melisa. To even mention tactical squads in a thread about the "best troops in the game" it's a pretty low blow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Tacticals do it better. And yes, I know the less knowledgable people in the game would say otherwise, but it's objectively true.

Who still says this? Are they just reiterating old advice from 7th edition?

AM fan-girls that don't want conscripts nerfed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sniper Rifles + ML is MUCH better utility

So add another 21 points on to the cost of the scout squad then, making it cost nearly as much as two five-man tactical squads, which is definitely far superior in durability than the scouts, especially against assault. And at short range, puts out far superior damage against infantry as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You flatout ignored that post though.

No, I did not.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tactical squads are bad at everything.

This is objectively untrue.

My votes for the top three, in arbitrary order, are:

Battle Sister Squads: Cheap, can take a ton of special weapons, still gets 3+ armor and krak grenades. The things they suck at are things that most troop units don't want to be doing anyway. Their 6++ and half-assed deny seem tiny, but do have their uses - in particular, that 6++ makes them ever so slightly harder to delete with AP -4/-5 weapons.

Brimstone Horrors: Cheap, cheap, cheap, and just durable enough to be really annoying. Micro-smite is wussy, but it adds up. Again, cheap, so the suicide factor doesn't matter. If it greases a lone guardsman, that's a fair trade.

Scions: Like Sisters, but with different tradeoffs. They lose some range, a point of armor and the shield of faith factor, and have slightly less special weapon density, but they're a little better in melee, can take orders, can deep strike, and their default weapon has AP -2. The hotshot lasguns, because of that, are arguably better than bolters for trying to ping a few wounds off tough stuff, which somewhat makes up for the loss of the third melta, while FRFSRF makes up for the loss of the third flamer (or storm bolter).

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sniper Rifles + ML is MUCH better utility

So add another 21 points on to the cost of the scout squad then, making it cost nearly as much as two five-man tactical squads, which is definitely far superior in durability than the scouts, especially against assault. And at short range, puts out far superior damage against infantry as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You flatout ignored that post though.

No, I did not.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tactical squads are bad at everything.

This is objectively untrue.

I don't know where you got an extra 21 points from. Sniper makes them 1 more point expensive and gives better range + mortal wound chances, and the ML is the same price as the Lascannon. So mildly less effective vs large targets but still D6 damage and has the Frag option.

You're one of the only people defending Tactical Marines remember that. I know you're starting a Blood Angels army and stuff, but once you start using Marines in an actual competitive setting you'll see they offer nothing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sniper Rifles + ML is MUCH better utility

So add another 21 points on to the cost of the scout squad then, making it cost nearly as much as two five-man tactical squads, which is definitely far superior in durability than the scouts, especially against assault. And at short range, puts out far superior damage against infantry as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You flatout ignored that post though.

No, I did not.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tactical squads are bad at everything.

This is objectively untrue.

I don't know where you got an extra 21 points from. Sniper makes them 1 more point expensive and gives better range + mortal wound chances, and the ML is the same price as the Lascannon. So mildly less effective vs large targets but still D6 damage and has the Frag option.

You're one of the only people defending Tactical Marines remember that. I know you're starting a Blood Angels army and stuff, but once you start using Marines in an actual competitive setting you'll see they offer nothing.

She is saying the Marines + Lascannon are the same price as Scouts with cloaks and rifles. I think if you add the ML then you get the extra 21 points. But I only have Imperium 1, not the 'dex, so I have no idea.

 Rydria wrote:
Most people I've talked to on here and other forums consider a shooting attack to be firing the weapon.

Shooting attack = how many attacks the weapon profile has. (But we could be wrong)

The rules are very clear that an attack is one dice: "Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made. The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon's profile..." Music of the Apocalypse does not do much. The shooting rules simply never use "attack" as a singular noun to refer to using a weapon's full profile, including its number of attacks. You'll note that when the rules want you to use the weapon's full profile, they simply allow you to "shoot", as with Space Marine Ancients.

I don't see how they are significantly worse if you use the inferior setting of the blast master you are averaging an equal number of shots to the sisters while being better against targets in cover. Noise marines can also split fire the blastmaster on the krak missile setting which averages 2 shots.

So it is 16 bolters vs 12 bolters + 2 krak missiles. (Noise Marines win)
or 16 bolters vs 12 bolters + 4 bolt rifles (Noise Marines win)

You're right, I was counting the blastmaster wrong, and it really is the blastmaster alone that keeps Noise Marines competitive. Though note that the Sisters are 9% cheaper -- they still end up performing better against lots of infantry targets.

If you aren't moving the sisters up the board though you aren't playing to there strengths while camping with noise marines is playing to there strength.

I have already pointed out that sisters are significantly superior at short range shooting so there isn't a point in talking about that.

That's not the point. That the Sisters have the ability to operate in this other way which is generally better than standing in cover on an objective while shooting at range doesn't mean that they're bad at standing in cover while shooting at range. This game doesn't care about comparative advantage, only absolute advantage. That Sisters can compete with Noise Marines at the Noise Marines' own job, while absolutely excelling at their own preferred role, is exactly why they're so good. Like, if we made Noise Marines' guns rapid fire instead of assault, they'd be way better even though now they'd probably want to be moving up the field. It's not like they'd be any worse at holding objectives.

Circumventing an entire phase is allot more powerful than you're making it out to be here, if a sister army gets mass charged it will generally be crippled or outright killed before it gets to attack, a emperor's children army forces the opponent to fight interchangeable fight phase actions which can completely change the outcome of a massed charged.

This also increases durability indirectly in subsequent fight phases as the noise marines will always hit first, so noise marines will generally be receiving less attacks in CQC than sisters will be.

First, my point was that the Sisters are getting a significant fraction of the same benefit just because their Overwatch is so much better, and they get this basically unconditionally. Like, how often is it actually a big deal that your Noise Marines are getting to strike with chargers? If only one unit charged Noise Marines, and your opponent's other chargers charged things other than Noise Marines, it's not going to matter at all unless maybe you have a big character elsewhere and your opponent wants to make sure you don't spend 2 CP to interrupt over there. Are you running an army consisting of almost nothing but Noise Marines? Likewise it doesn't matter very much on your turn unless you again have multiple units of Noise Marines still in combat. Meanwhile Sisters are getting 38% of the impact before all enemy chargers fight, in addition to their regular attacks later. Finally, I don't think I've ever seen a Sisters army get mass charged. You just don't arrange your units so that it's possible to charge a whole bunch of them. You have screens for that kind of thing.