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My two cents, fire warriors are good with their 30" S5 guns. At 15" with an ethereal giving them 6+++ a fireblade making them 3 shots each and pathfinders or marker drones helping they're great.
And tac marines are ok. They add bodies that have 2+ in cover, sergent can take a cc weapon and you can throw in a melta gun. It's ok, and I play RG, so I'll keep taking 2 units in slightly larger games. I'll buy more for completion's sake hobby wise but I wouldn't run any more.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
The current meta is marines everywhere since GW only sells marines actually, with only a few exceptions. BA have been quite weak since years and I'd love to see them buffed to be honest but other factions (regular SM, DA, SW) have been competitive even in tournaments and still are, ultramarines at least. Now they may not be top tiers but still better than the majority of the other armies.

One thing that 40k doesn't need is more marine players. If you make them more competitive this is what we'll have. Even more marines. At that point 40k would become like 30k, marines vs marines, everywhere and everytime. I'd be ok with just keeping the independent chapters like BA, DA and SW.

IMHO 40k needs an edition in which marines are the worst of all factions and no one playes them anymore, other than people who love their background. Buffing their troops is the opposite of what 40k needs.

Is this post even real?

Yes. All Marines, all the time, gets annoying.

It's a post that flatout admits that they don't want good Marine choices.

It's a post that flatout admits that I don't want SM improved since they're currently a mid tier army and still the most popular one. If they get buffed we'll have even more marines players and IMHO that would be terrible. Imperium factions that face each other doesn't make any sense and I refuse to play with my SW against any other human faction. Imperials currently have tons of armies, some of them also extremely popular and I'd like variety in the game.

Buffing tac marines could be acceptable if rhinos and razorbacks were costed properly and guilliman granted re-rolls failed to hit OR wound rolls of 1s, certainly not re-rolling everything. Overall SM are a decent army, only 6-7 factions out of the 20+ available are really better than them.

So because Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't fairly priced you use that line of logic? Give me a break. That's ridiculous. I don't care what variety you decide you want. I want BALANCE instead. All you show is bias at that point.

Also pretty sure Papa Smurf only grants rerolls on everything that's failed to Ultramarines. Super powerful, but that's for ONE Chapter. The only thing he is doing too good is durability.

Nope, Roboute is for Imperium units all around if I remember correctly.

 Elbows wrote:
Nope, Roboute is for Imperium units all around if I remember correctly.

The buff for all imperial units is the LD bonus and rerolling 1's. Also think there's a advance/charge bonus, but the main thing people complain about is for Ultramarines only last I checked.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So because Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't fairly priced you use that line of logic? Give me a break. That's ridiculous. I don't care what variety you decide you want. I want BALANCE instead. All you show is bias at that point.

Also pretty sure Papa Smurf only grants rerolls on everything that's failed to Ultramarines. Super powerful, but that's for ONE Chapter. The only thing he is doing too good is durability.

But you don't want balance across different factions, you basically want balance in a single codex, one of yours of course. There's a unit that performs poorly and you want to improve it, that's your wish. I don't care about single units instead, I only care about the army overall and IMHO SM are currently quite good and don't need buffs but nerfs. IMHO balance means that all the armies can be played at semi-competitive levels at least, not 5-6 at most, and SM are already a decent one. Going at the store and meeting 10 players, 7 of them with SM armies, is the opposite of balance.

Guilliman buffs ultramarines, which means he buffs ALL generic marines since everyone plays vanilla marines as ultramarines at the moment, only someone is trying the raven guard faction. IMHO DA, SW and BA shouldn't be considered space marines, when I talk about SM I mean vanilla marines, not these three specific chapters which should be supported more by GW.

" SM are currently quite good and don't need buffs but nerfs"

No, they really aren't outside Rowboat shooting party. That's the problem. I shouldn't need a primarch to field a viable list.

Of course, posters like you don't differentiate between cheap gimmicks and the basal units being poor.

I don't think the power level of an army has anything to do with the amount of SM players.

 koooaei wrote:
I don't think the power level of an army has anything to do with the amount of SM players.

Well, I think the premise is that all the band-wagoners will jump onto the Next Best Army, and if that's marines, that means their player numbers will go from "every other game involves marines" to "damn near every game will involve marines".

Didn't happen in 7th. Or 3rd, for that matter.

Martel732 wrote:
Didn't happen in 7th. Or 3rd, for that matter.

Maybe in your area. Marines are everywhere. Everyone (including me) has a marines army. Not to mention other imperium stuff. And there's a lot of nasty power players that chase the best army of the moment, seriously the last thing 40k needs is to have better SM lists.

I don't get why you're against gimmicks. Try playing orks without buffing characters. They'll concede turn 1. I shouldn't need ghaz to be mid tier at most but still I'm almost forced to include him if I want to play against a competitive list. Warbosses, weirdboyz, KFF, painboyz, banner nobz, etc... I must pick up some of the bonuses that these units grant, otherwise the army would be unplayable. Many people consider ork boyz good or very good but they're worthless without buffing characters, worse than tac marines IMHO. SW also rely a lot on their lords, battle leaders, wolf priests, arjac and bjorn that buff other units. Conscripts are garbage without commissars, etc....

I think gimmicks are necessary to add variety, I don't want BA or SW to be regular marines just painted in red or light blue/grey, they should rely mostly on their typical units. BA should be improved, I agree about that, but their dreads, termy, jump pack guys, buffing HQs should be improved, not the tacticals.

Im late but i vote Battle Sisters.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Didn't happen in 7th. Or 3rd, for that matter.

Maybe in your area. Marines are everywhere. Everyone (including me) has a marines army. Not to mention other imperium stuff. And there's a lot of nasty power players that chase the best army of the moment, seriously the last thing 40k needs is to have better SM lists.

I don't get why you're against gimmicks. Try playing orks without buffing characters. They'll concede turn 1. I shouldn't need ghaz to be mid tier at most but still I'm almost forced to include him if I want to play against a competitive list. Warbosses, weirdboyz, KFF, painboyz, banner nobz, etc... I must pick up some of the bonuses that these units grant, otherwise the army would be unplayable. Many people consider ork boyz good or very good but they're worthless without buffing characters, worse than tac marines IMHO. SW also rely a lot on their lords, battle leaders, wolf priests, arjac and bjorn that buff other units. Conscripts are garbage without commissars, etc....

I think gimmicks are necessary to add variety, I don't want BA or SW to be regular marines just painted in red or light blue/grey, they should rely mostly on their typical units. BA should be improved, I agree about that, but their dreads, termy, jump pack guys, buffing HQs should be improved, not the tacticals.

I lived through 7th. Feth gimmicks.

People in my play area are already giving up on marines this edition.

People in my play area are already giving up on marines this edition.

Why? Marines are strong as always, especially UM.

So does that mean we should only consider unsupported conscript squads when talking about how strong they are? After all, buffing characters are just "gimmicks" and shouldn't count, right?

 ross-128 wrote:
So does that mean we should only consider unsupported conscript squads when talking about how strong they are? After all, buffing characters are just "gimmicks" and shouldn't count, right?

Yep. And don't count chapter tactics, either, that's just wrong!

The level of mental gymnastics here in support of the "tacticals are the worst unit ever omfg" argument is impressive.

Martel732 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Didn't happen in 7th. Or 3rd, for that matter.

Maybe in your area. Marines are everywhere. Everyone (including me) has a marines army. Not to mention other imperium stuff. And there's a lot of nasty power players that chase the best army of the moment, seriously the last thing 40k needs is to have better SM lists.

I don't get why you're against gimmicks. Try playing orks without buffing characters. They'll concede turn 1. I shouldn't need ghaz to be mid tier at most but still I'm almost forced to include him if I want to play against a competitive list. Warbosses, weirdboyz, KFF, painboyz, banner nobz, etc... I must pick up some of the bonuses that these units grant, otherwise the army would be unplayable. Many people consider ork boyz good or very good but they're worthless without buffing characters, worse than tac marines IMHO. SW also rely a lot on their lords, battle leaders, wolf priests, arjac and bjorn that buff other units. Conscripts are garbage without commissars, etc....

I think gimmicks are necessary to add variety, I don't want BA or SW to be regular marines just painted in red or light blue/grey, they should rely mostly on their typical units. BA should be improved, I agree about that, but their dreads, termy, jump pack guys, buffing HQs should be improved, not the tacticals.

I lived through 7th. Feth gimmicks.

People in my play area are already giving up on marines this edition.

People in my play area are collecting more marines than ever. YMMV.

 Blackie wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So because Rhinos and Razorbacks aren't fairly priced you use that line of logic? Give me a break. That's ridiculous. I don't care what variety you decide you want. I want BALANCE instead. All you show is bias at that point.

Also pretty sure Papa Smurf only grants rerolls on everything that's failed to Ultramarines. Super powerful, but that's for ONE Chapter. The only thing he is doing too good is durability.

But you don't want balance across different factions, you basically want balance in a single codex, one of yours of course. There's a unit that performs poorly and you want to improve it, that's your wish. I don't care about single units instead, I only care about the army overall and IMHO SM are currently quite good and don't need buffs but nerfs. IMHO balance means that all the armies can be played at semi-competitive levels at least, not 5-6 at most, and SM are already a decent one. Going at the store and meeting 10 players, 7 of them with SM armies, is the opposite of balance.

Guilliman buffs ultramarines, which means he buffs ALL generic marines since everyone plays vanilla marines as ultramarines at the moment, only someone is trying the raven guard faction. IMHO DA, SW and BA shouldn't be considered space marines, when I talk about SM I mean vanilla marines, not these three specific chapters which should be supported more by GW.

1. I'm pointing out a bad unit, and you admit to basically saying it's fine because Marines. No, I'm the honest one here wanting balance. I've already pointed out bad troops in the bad troop thread, so I actually know a thing or two here. You, however, decide that you don't care about units and rather army showing. If you don't look at these issues though, you won't understand these showings and units chosen. Then we got people like Insectum that decide tournament showings and statistics don't matter because they aren't in their arguments favor.
2. I'm defending my point on a single codex for one of the armies I play, and it's one of the things that's continuously being argued. Of course it looks like that I just want balance within a single codex. However, I'd like to thing the homebrew fixes I was in the process of making for 7th were pretty good. I abandoned that though because 8th popped up.
3. Space Marines are the most promoted so they're going to show up more. Are you shocked when you go into a shoe store and they sell more Nike shoes than other brands? If so, I can't help you. Nobody can. You're literally ignoring the marketing angle.
4. You're focusing on a Subfaction. Roboute doesn't buff all generic Marines unless the argument needs to be in your favor.
No, he buffs Ultramarines. That means he buffs Calgar, not Lysander and Khan and their respective chapters. That said, his buff is wasted on Tactical Marines because the unit is bad already. So if your argument here is that Tactical Marines cam be good because Roboute can buff them, he can buff better units instead to make them even better performing. That's also only if you play Ultramarines, which I need to reiterate.
5. So keeping that point in mind, Dark Angels and Blood Angels have the same garbage Tactical Marine unit entry, with the only difference being that the Blood Angels ones can take Heavy Flamers and that's it. That was kinda cool in 6th and 7th and gave them a slight edge over the regular ones, but it still didn't make them worth taking, and as an insult Gladius was created.
Also Roboute buffs all those Marines as well in the same manner as White Scars and Iron Hands etc.
6. I've already talked about how Grey Hunters work because they have a defined role and stats that make them better than the Tactical Marine to do it (aggressive objective taking), and they haven't a Heavy Weapon option that tricks you into thinking they can keep a home objective as well as Long Fangs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
So does that mean we should only consider unsupported conscript squads when talking about how strong they are? After all, buffing characters are just "gimmicks" and shouldn't count, right?

What mandatory HQ do you want to consider to support the Tactical Marines that's as cheap as a Commisar?
Also you do need to consider them without HQ, which is why everyone agrees Conscripts are garbage without them. I haven't heard anyone say otherwise ONCE. They just benefit too much from the HQ because of the ridiculously cheap buy-in for the unit, and the ridiculous bubble wrap ability they provide.

Guilliman buffs ultramarines, which means he buffs ALL generic marines since everyone plays vanilla marines as ultramarines at the moment, only someone is trying the raven guard faction. IMHO DA, SW and BA shouldn't be considered space marines, when I talk about SM I mean vanilla marines, not these three specific chapters which should be supported more by GW.

The three specific chapters are sufficiently supported by GW since they have their own codices.
The mistake made by GW is to push Guilliman too far so that at the competive level vanilla Marines are the obvious choice.

 wuestenfux wrote:

People in my play area are already giving up on marines this edition.

Why? Marines are strong as always, especially UM.

Because many of them don't want to use Rowboat, and marines without gimmicks are outnumbered and weak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
So does that mean we should only consider unsupported conscript squads when talking about how strong they are? After all, buffing characters are just "gimmicks" and shouldn't count, right?

IG can play around the issue if they want to with regular squads. From what I'm seeing marines are Girlyman or bust. It's frankly nauseating.

Well first of all the Commissar is an elite slot, not HQ, unless you take the 50 point lord commissar. The Company Commander is an HQ at the same price as the commissar though (if you give him a bolter).

Now, sure, the space marines don't have a 30 point HQ. Their "cheap" HQs are Captains at 74 points and Chaplains at 72 points. However, there is a reason for that. Their stat line is ridiculous. The captain has WS2+, BS2+, T4/3+, 5 wounds, 4 attacks (5 with the chainsword he starts with), and his bolter does double damage. He's basically 5 space marines, of course he's expensive. Only paying 30 points for that stat line alone would be silly, never mind character status and the reroll-1s bubble on top of that. If you stuck that bubble on a GEQ statline it'd probably only be 20 points, but that just means you're going to have to make him go do some work beyond just being a buff monkey.

On that note, I have a strong feeling GW really wants space marines to spam plasma in this edition. Considering how many sources of re-rolls you get to mitigate overcharging, and the fact that they introduced an entire unit whose sole job is "spam plasma".

Also amusing: primaris lieutenants can buff any space marine unit, so a captain and primaris lieutenant could have everything around them (including themselves) re-rolling 1s both to hit and to wound. Also, comparing the two it seems GW considers a re-roll to hit to be worth about 4 points more than a re-roll to wound. Probably because of how it interacts with plasma I guess.

Actually the "cheap" HQ is the 60pt Lieutenant (NOT the primaris variant, who is more expensive), who comes with a "reroll 1s on to-wound rolls" aura. 140 points for Cap + Lt each with MCBGs and chainswords gives you rerolls of 1s for both to-wound and to-hit, and is well worth the cost-- though most people would give them upgrades beyond that to make the most of their statline.

Just 60pts for Lt with chainsword+bolt pistol gives you to-wound rerolls which makes flamers markedly more powerful, though you'll want to buff two or three (or more) squads to make the most of it-- which is fairly easy to do with five-man squads on a 6" aura.

As a bonus, the regular Lt, unlike the primaris variant, can ride in a non-Repulsor transport.

Martel732 wrote:


From what I'm seeing marines are Girlyman or bust. It's frankly nauseating.

40k 8th edition is based around buffs, you may not like it, but that's how the edition was designed.

At extremely competitive levels yes, you're right, SM lists are based around guilliman's re-rolls. But in the same environment each army has max 1-2 lists, some factions haven't got even a decent one. Orks are only green tides plus buffing characters, sisters are only MSU in tanks with celestine, drukhari are only poisoned shots and dark lances, harlequins have 8 units in the entire codex that are always played with the same tactics and synergies, tzeentch lists always bring the same stuff, etc. Only AM at the moment can have different effective ways of playing.

In 7th edition SM, eldar and tau, the most overpowered armies won tournaments with the same lists. Try to change them completely and even orks could defeat them with good odds.

If you talk about very competitive levels each army will always end up with the same list basically and a few variations of that list, unless GW tones down everything that is currently good, very good or overpowered and makes the entire game full of units that are on the same mediocre level.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually the "cheap" HQ is the 60pt Lieutenant (NOT the primaris variant, who is more expensive), who comes with a "reroll 1s on to-wound rolls" aura. 140 points for Cap + Lt each with MCBGs and chainswords gives you rerolls of 1s for both to-wound and to-hit, and is well worth the cost-- though most people would give them upgrades beyond that to make the most of their statline.

Add to that the Salamander CT which gives you a free re-roll to hit and wound per squad and you're closing in on Guillimans buff-power at a fraction of the cost. If you roll a 2 to hit or wound, use the CT, if you roll a 1, use the Captain or Lieutennant. A Devastator Squad only has 4 weapons, and one of them is at BS2. You'd need 2 2's out of the three BS3+ to miss out on a re-roll to hit. A five man Tactical gets to re-roll their Lascannon hit+wound "naturally" without any babysitting. Buy ten man squads? Split them into five man squads and get double the re-rolling.

When I get back to loyalists I'll probably be starting out with the Salamnders CT.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually the "cheap" HQ is the 60pt Lieutenant (NOT the primaris variant, who is more expensive), who comes with a "reroll 1s on to-wound rolls" aura. 140 points for Cap + Lt each with MCBGs and chainswords gives you rerolls of 1s for both to-wound and to-hit, and is well worth the cost-- though most people would give them upgrades beyond that to make the most of their statline.

Just 60pts for Lt with chainsword+bolt pistol gives you to-wound rerolls which makes flamers markedly more powerful, though you'll want to buff two or three (or more) squads to make the most of it-- which is fairly easy to do with five-man squads on a 6" aura.

As a bonus, the regular Lt, unlike the primaris variant, can ride in a non-Repulsor transport.

I swear the Lieutenant is an elite choice.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Actually the "cheap" HQ is the 60pt Lieutenant (NOT the primaris variant, who is more expensive), who comes with a "reroll 1s on to-wound rolls" aura. 140 points for Cap + Lt each with MCBGs and chainswords gives you rerolls of 1s for both to-wound and to-hit, and is well worth the cost-- though most people would give them upgrades beyond that to make the most of their statline.

Just 60pts for Lt with chainsword+bolt pistol gives you to-wound rerolls which makes flamers markedly more powerful, though you'll want to buff two or three (or more) squads to make the most of it-- which is fairly easy to do with five-man squads on a 6" aura.

As a bonus, the regular Lt, unlike the primaris variant, can ride in a non-Repulsor transport.

I swear the Lieutenant is an elite choice.

It's HQ, just opposite Techmarine.

Best troop choices in my opinion are:
Brimstone horrors - stupid cheap screen for characters and to deny deepstrike.
Kabalite warriors - cheap, rapid fire, can take some effective special weapons and allow you to spam venoms.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
My two cents, fire warriors are good with their 30" S5 guns. At 15" with an ethereal giving them 6+++ a fireblade making them 3 shots each and pathfinders or marker drones helping they're great.
And tac marines are ok. They add bodies that have 2+ in cover, sergent can take a cc weapon and you can throw in a melta gun. It's ok, and I play RG, so I'll keep taking 2 units in slightly larger games. I'll buy more for completion's sake hobby wise but I wouldn't run any more.

I think for both Tau and Marines their troops aren't terrible but they aren't super strong and won't carry the game for you, so some people complain. I've found with Fire Warriors the less I rely on them, the better they are. When I try to focus on my fire warriors and kick ass with them they suck. But if I throw 15 fire warriors, a handful of gun drones, and a Fireblade down as cheap Troops/HQ for a Battalion they'll end up tossing 10 unsaved wounds on Skarbrand before my strong stuff even shoots(happened last weekend for me). Fire Warriors are a great source of extra shots to help the various battlesuits do the heavy work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


From what I'm seeing marines are Girlyman or bust. It's frankly nauseating.

40k 8th edition is based around buffs, you may not like it, but that's how the edition was designed.

At extremely competitive levels yes, you're right, SM lists are based around guilliman's re-rolls. But in the same environment each army has max 1-2 lists, some factions haven't got even a decent one. Orks are only green tides plus buffing characters, sisters are only MSU in tanks with celestine, drukhari are only poisoned shots and dark lances, harlequins have 8 units in the entire codex that are always played with the same tactics and synergies, tzeentch lists always bring the same stuff, etc. Only AM at the moment can have different effective ways of playing.

In 7th edition SM, eldar and tau, the most overpowered armies won tournaments with the same lists. Try to change them completely and even orks could defeat them with good odds.

If you talk about very competitive levels each army will always end up with the same list basically and a few variations of that list, unless GW tones down everything that is currently good, very good or overpowered and makes the entire game full of units that are on the same mediocre level.

Second on marine cheese varying on competitive levels. Super competitive lists are gonna run a lot of Girlyman and casual/semi-comp lists are going to have captains and lieutenants. Marines really are RerollHammer 40k. Someone told me the other day that he thought my Tau using a single markerlight hit to reroll 1's to hit was OP... He had to have been new to the edition and not had a SM Captain/Lt giving a wall of devestators or tanks reroll 1's to hit and wound without needing support from a T3 Sv5+ model.

Sumilidon wrote:
Best troop choices in my opinion are:
Brimstone horrors - stupid cheap screen for characters and to deny deepstrike.
Kabalite warriors - cheap, rapid fire, can take some effective special weapons and allow you to spam venoms.

Kabals dont do much at all tho, i can pay my SOB spam Battle sisters and beat many GT lists, my warriors barely does anything (I mostly play DE but i 2ndary SoB).

Poison just doesnt do anything, and sense they lost TL on Raiders (Ok im going to rank for a sec, ALL ARMIES GOT TL AND DBL THE SHOTS DUE TO IT, but NOOOO not DE, we got NERFED, our 1 main TL gun was cut in 1/2 of shots and 15pts... 15pts for a 3 shot rabid fire..... I'd rather have Storm Bolters at least they can hurt vehicles and T3 on a 3+) Back onto topic.

Oh yeah how bad poison is.... its really bad. 1 Special weapon isnt that good either, SOB can have 2 and a combi, and they are almost just as cheap (2pt difference)

So for 2pts you get

3+/6++ vs 5+
Grenades
3 Weapon options in a 5man
Both can get Open top vehicles
AoF vs PFP

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sumilidon wrote:
Best troop choices in my opinion are:
Brimstone horrors - stupid cheap screen for characters and to deny deepstrike.
Kabalite warriors - cheap, rapid fire, can take some effective special weapons and allow you to spam venoms.

Kabals dont do much at all tho, i can pay my SOB spam Battle sisters and beat many GT lists, my warriors barely does anything (I mostly play DE but i 2ndary SoB).

Poison just doesnt do anything, and sense they lost TL on Raiders (Ok im going to rank for a sec, ALL ARMIES GOT TL AND DBL THE SHOTS DUE TO IT, but NOOOO not DE, we got NERFED, our 1 main TL gun was cut in 1/2 of shots and 15pts... 15pts for a 3 shot rabid fire..... I'd rather have Storm Bolters at least they can hurt vehicles and T3 on a 3+) Back onto topic.

Oh yeah how bad poison is.... its really bad. 1 Special weapon isnt that good either, SOB can have 2 and a combi, and they are almost just as cheap (2pt difference)

So for 2pts you get

3+/6++ vs 5+
Grenades
3 Weapon options in a 5man
Both can get Open top vehicles
AoF vs PFP

I agree, drukhari are a mid-tier army at the moment, same as they were in 7th edition when formations from the coven supplement really gave them a boost and other viable options than being an army that only shoot, like they are now once again.

SoB instead are very very good. Their only issue is their cost, a 2000 points army worths in terms of money like 4000-5000 points of another faction with plastic models. SoB armies are quite uncommon, but they're very effective now, IMHO with AM the current top tiers.

Kabalite warriors are ok though, a decent troop option. Better than many other troops in the game.

Kabals are better than many other units i do agree, but i dont think they are the best by far.

Im agreeing with you just my 2cents