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Fighter combat was never the Jedi's focus, take away the force and most are probably average pilots at best.

 Manchu wrote:


According to Obi-Wan in ANH, Anakain was an exceptionally good pilot by the time Obi-Wan met him. In TPM, we see this is true: he's already a talented podracer when Qui-Gon meets him. Doesn't seem to have to do with his Jedi training.

I thought that rather a big plot point in TPM was that Anakin was such an exceptional pilot (literally beyond normal human capabilities) because of his connection to the Force. Which makes other Jedi's seeming incompetence (they were still far better pilots than most) all the more baffling unless it's to illustrate just how much stronger with the Force Anakin/Vader was compared to other Jedi.

It was more along the lines of his connection with the force allowed him to compete with and at times best non human pilots with superior reflexes.

Of course the idea that aliens have superior reflexes to such a degree only a Jedi human can keep up with them doesn't mesh at all with the OT where characters like Han, Lando, and Wedge are portrayed as being exceptional pilots.

Interestingly the EU (which is now outdated) went an entire different direction. The top dog fighters are presumably Vader and Luke, but they're also extremely powerful force users rivaled only by Mace Windu and Obi-Wan in the prequels. They're also depicted as having been flying from a very young age and being skilled before even honing their connection with the force. Baron Soontir Fel and Wedge Antilles are depicted as being a match for any force user from that generation. I think the Solo twins were depicted as being very good as well, but as far as Skywalkers/Solos go, it's implied that being skilled pilots is part of their lineage.

 trexmeyer wrote:
The top dog fighters are presumably Vader and Luke, but they're also extremely powerful force users rivaled only by Mace Windu and Obi-Wan in the prequels.

And Palpatine and Yoda [/nitpick].

If the point of Anakin being a good pilot in TMP was to illustrate that all Jedi must be good pilots because of the Force then why wouldn't Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan just enter the race and not put a small child in harm's way? I think the proper conclusion is, Anakin being Force sensitive helped but he was also naturally a great pilot plus he had, even as a kid, some practice. Meanwhile, nothing about TMP suggests that either Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan know anything about piloting whatsoever, despite being trained Jedi.

In fact, Obi-wan makes it pretty clear in all of the prequels that he does not like flying or being a pilot.

 Manchu wrote:
If the point of Anakin being a good pilot in TMP was to illustrate that all Jedi must be good pilots because of the Force then why wouldn't Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan just enter the race and not put a small child in harm's way? I think the proper conclusion is, Anakin being Force sensitive helped but he was also naturally a great pilot plus he had, even as a kid, some practice. Meanwhile, nothing about TMP suggests that either Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan know anything about piloting whatsoever, despite being trained Jedi.

It wasn't. Not even close. It was clearly a like father, like son nod. Skywalkers are baller pilots. Either that or the main character of a given trilogy ala Anakin/Luke/Rey got handles.

Personally, outside of the necessity of using a smaller craft to destroy the Death Star, the dog fighting in Star Wars is really pointless. I know it's most likely done over and over by Lucas (and others) to shove just how good so and so is into our face, but it's just dumb. That's the number one problem with the movies. As so you can get into details of "realism" everything falls to pieces.

 trexmeyer wrote:
That's the number one problem with the movies. As so you can get into details of "realism" everything falls to pieces.

True dat. But it's still fun to watch, and argue about. I think that's why I like Rogue One and Manchu doesn't, for example.

Seems like R1 is all about shoving crap in our faces just to show how good so-and-so is.

 Manchu wrote:
Seems like R1 is all about shoving crap in our faces just to show how good so-and-so is.

I would argue against that. And not for the sake of arguing with you either. They're certainly depicted as competent, and in a couple of cases, exceptionally so, but they all got killed. Hell, the fleet got torched as well. They succeeded their mission not because they were billy bad asses, but because they got the Empire by surprise and had the help of "two" traitors.

By comparison, Luke as an untrained 20 year old force user, blew up the Death Star. Han, a worthless scoundrel with out enough of a rep to be known by the Empire, shot Vader out of the sky. I won't argue for or against their escape since the Empire opted to track them and we don't know if they intended to interrogate or track or whichever was easiest.

To the contrary, Luke and Han are portrayed as - at best - basically competent. Luke's cocksure optimism during the briefing is not meant to convey how talented he is but rather how naive he is, contrasted to the more realistic opinions of the veterans sround him. The plan is honestly a stretch. The Rebels allow Luke to fly because they know it's a suicide mission anyway and he only gets a shot when, true to Tarkin's appraisal of the situation, all the better pilots have been killed by the Death Star's defenses or coldly dismantled by a contemptuous, bored Darth Vader. Luke only succeeds because he has two advantages. The first is actual magic. This not only allows Luke to make the impossible shot but also distracts Vader, allowing Luke's second advantage, Han's cheap shot on Vader's escort, to come into play.

These guys are far from badasses, unlike the R1 protagonists. Ip Man easily conquers a dozen stormies using a stick. But rather than use his super powers similarly in the climactic moment, he infamously walks slowly forward into direct volume of fire - which works! You know, until it doesn't. As an audience member, I had no clue what this was supposed to mean or how I should feel about it. Let's compare it to Qui-Gon's death in TPM. Qui-Gon idiotically charges forward to fight Darth Maul without Obi-Wan and gets killed. But there's nothing unexpected about this, really. Lucas already established earlier in the movie that Qui-Gon barely survived retreating from Darth Maul. Qui-Gon's death also creates tension: if he couldn't beat Maul, what chance does Obi-Wan have - especially considering that Obi-Wan is now shaken up by his master's demise? As it turns out, he has no chance, except the chance Maul's arrogance affords him.

Now, like the R1 protagonists, it's hard to care very much about Qui-Gon dying. Thinly charcaterized protagonists are just hard to care about, period. But his death isn't a bizarre puzzle, like Ip Man's. And unlike Ip Man's death, Qui-Gon's death at least raises the stakes of the following action piece. Finally, TPM also does a better job of establishing consistent stakes. Although TPM and R1 both have the problem of hyper-badass protagonists that are hard to care about, at least Lucas understood that badass protagonists should by the climax be up against even badassier antagonists. Maul is shown to be too strong for Qui-Gon to face alone and, when the payoff scenes arrive, this remains true. It's unclear why Ip Man's previously established combat super powers were inadequate in his moment of truth, except that the Disney execs wanted Heroic Sacrifice (TM) without understanding the fundamental set up/payoff mechanic of writing.

Now, I'm not arguing that TPM has an effective script. It's garbage. Getting a few basics right doesn't outweigh the tremendous disaster that is supposed to be TPM's plot. Nor is Qui-Gon Jinn more memorable or engaging than Ip Man or Snarkbot or Gun Guy or Pilot or Captain Mustache. (Well, he is porobably a better character than Gun Guy and Pilot, but only because those guys aren't even characters.) The point is that even George Lucas (!) at his arguable worst had a better insight into the mechanics of action writing.

It also doesn't matter that the R1 protagonists all end up dead. Pilot has the only believable death and he was simply the victim of battlefield chaos, which is hardly heroic in the usual Star Wars sense (tonal inconsistency is another thorn in R1's side). Snarkbot's death was okay in principle but disproportionate - either do a better job establishing his super powers or scale back the amount of mooks necessary to take him down. Captain Mustache should have stayed dead; there was nothing wrong with his original death scene. Ip Man should have gone down in the teeth of stormies, while Gun Guy activated the Plot Device (actually getting to do something) before going down in a hail of fire. (BTW the point of Ip Man him being a True Believer can be made just as well this way.) Jyn Erso should have been dispassionately shot by Krennic. And even poor Director Krennic should have survived only to be executed by Vader/Tarkin for incompetence, rather than being shot by the Death Star (I mean FFS).

Finally, R1 has super badass characters whose badassery is very much shoved in our faces throughout the film and yet they are up against nothing but buffoons. Even Darth "Jason Vorhees" Vader cannot be arsed to muder his way down a corridor of mooks fast enough to actually intercept the Death Star plans. It's hard to interpret R1 on the terms it wants, a movie about dire risks in the face of overwhelming odds, when the characters are so awesome that for the most part they only succumb to either their own foolishness or the equally bizarre clownery of the Empire. Let's keep in mind that Jyn and mustache don't die because the Imperial forces are so dangerous but because a Grand Moff inexplicably shoots the Death Star laser at an Imperial system, dooming everyone in that hemisphere.

I can easily write off the difference in skill levels between a Jedi with his/her lightsaber and piloting a spacecraft to the following: training. We've been shown that Jedis train relentlessly with their lightsabers, probably in the thousands of hours, not to mention the fact that they would use a lightsaber in combat a lot more than they would a space fighter. I think by the time a Jedi gets in a fight with his lightsaber, its at the point where they don't even have to think about blocking blaster fire, its just a natural reaction melded with their force awareness.

So yes, when the Jedis were pushed into a combat role in the Clone Wars their force abilities still made them a better than average pilot, but they didn't have the same level of training with their space fighters that they did with their lightsaber and therefore they aren't able to do some of the truly crazy things like they can do with their lightsaber. Instead, they kind of have to focus/concentrate to do anything really special (like Luke hitting the Death Star exhaust port, for example).

Yes, the point is pretty clear inasmuch as great pilot like Luke who even has magic powers is still (in the old EU) not as good as a non-magical ace like Wedge.

The main problem with Rogue One is it has no characters, so I don't give a gak.

I think the reason for Jedi not being amazing pilots by default is both a mix of training and what they were fighting against. The Jedi didn't train in fighter combat, they trained in ground combat vs single or small groups of opponents. Prior to the Clone Wars, Jedi didn't do much space combat at all. Their fighters probably had cannons just as an afterthought.

As for the force,

The Force is quite explicitly a phenomenon associated with living creatures. Droids are not living creatures, so sensing their movement patterns and seeing where they are going to be is more difficult than a living pilot.

Distance also seems to play a part in how much someone senses through the force. Luke didn't sense Vader was present on the Super Star Destroyer till they were passing it, likewise Vader didn't sense Luke till they drew near as well. Likewise, Luke was able to sense Vader on the moon, but not when he was up in space.

So a Jedi is fighting a droid in space. Distances of several hundred to several thousand meters, and the enemy pilot isn't a living thing.

 Ahtman wrote:
There are probably several reasons but the main one that explains it is this: the prequels are terrible and inconsistent.

This. Except for Yoda's epic lightsaber fight with Dark Tyrannis(?). (I can't call him "Count Dooku" without snickering my ass off).


But then again, I'm of the opinion that Star War started with "A New Hope" and ended with "Return of the Jedi" Everything set before or after (with the possible exception of Rogue One) was pure garbage.

Darth Tyrannus, not *dark*

Dooku sounds like "dookie"?

It's almost as bad in Rebels. Mandalorian by the name of Pre Viszla. We had a viszla when I was a kid. It's a dog breed. So that name always makes me snicker.

Is anybody else irritiated [sic] by the typo in the thread title?

 Manchu wrote:
TStuff about Rogue One.

So.... how do you feel about the Dirty Dozen? Inglorious Bastards? The Guns of Navarrone? Etc, etc., etc?

Manchu wrote:Yes, the point is pretty clear inasmuch as great pilot like Luke who even has magic powers is still (in the old EU) not as good as a non-magical ace like Wedge.

Even in the Original Trilogy Luke isn't actually shown to be that great a pilot. He does the trench run not because he's amazing but because his buddies got shot first and then he uses the Force for one shot. Maybe nobody else could have made the shot but other than that he didn't really come across as that special.

And then you have Poe in The Force Awakens who trivialises his opponents in a way that Wedge never did in the Original Trilogy. Even the Millennium Falcon with it's assorted main characters doesn't fare as well against strike craft.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


This. Except for Yoda's epic lightsaber fight with Dark Tyrannis(?). (I can't call him "Count Dooku" without snickering my ass off).

I feel like that ruined Yoda's character. In the Original Trilogy there was this whole build up of Yoda from Luke's perspective. He assumes that as a master Jedi he will be a great warrior and then it turns out that he's not. There's no indication that the Yoda from the Original Trilogy would be capable of fighting with a lightsaber. And that's cool in itself. Being a Jedi wasn't about being good with a special sword. It was about personal belief and inner strength. It came across as Luke being completely wrong in his preconceived notion that a Jedi had to be a swordsman.

And then the prequels said that being a good Jedi is all about your ability to stab someone with a sword.

 Easy E wrote:
So.... how do you feel about the Dirty Dozen? Inglorious Bastards? The Guns of Navarrone? Etc, etc., etc?

If this is a rhetorical question, I'm not sure what point you want to make. Taking it at face value, I have only seen Dirty Dozen and Guns of the Navarrone, and I enjoyed both movie.

 Manchu wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
So.... how do you feel about the Dirty Dozen? Inglorious Bastards? The Guns of Navarrone? Etc, etc., etc?

If this is a rhetorical question, I'm not sure what point you want to make. Taking it at face value, I have only seen Dirty Dozen and Guns of the Navarrone, and I enjoyed both movie.

It was a bit of a joke. Rogue One follows many tropes of the military adventure movie and the critiques you are attributing to R1 are more of a critique of the genre than R1 specifically.

I think if R1 had stuck to the genre conventions you're referencing, it would have been a great movie.

 chromedog wrote:


It's almost as bad in Rebels. Mandalorian by the name of Pre Viszla. We had a viszla when I was a kid. It's a dog breed. So that name always makes me snicker.

Pre Viszla was The Clone Wars, there's only been mention of the Viszlas in Rebels. Instead Rebels gives us the Clan Wren (Ursa, Sabine and Tristan), Gar Saxon and Fenn Rau.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
In the Original Trilogy there was this whole build up of Yoda from Luke's perspective. He assumes that as a master Jedi he will be a great warrior and then it turns out that he's not. There's no indication that the Yoda from the Original Trilogy would be capable of fighting with a lightsaber. And that's cool in itself. Being a Jedi wasn't about being good with a special sword. It was about personal belief and inner strength. It came across as Luke being completely wrong in his preconceived notion that a Jedi had to be a swordsman.

And then the prequels said that being a good Jedi is all about your ability to stab someone with a sword.

Don't get me wrong, I like the prequels well enough. They are Star Wars after all. But what you just wrote is probably the best analogy I've even heard for the prequels as a whole, not just about Yoda's character.

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