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If a Helbrute armed with a twin lascannon and a missile launcher is damaged during the psychic phase, and it rolls a 6 to activate its crazed ability:

1. What is it allowed to shoot? All shots from both weapons, all shots from one weapon, or one shot from one weapon? I have a lot of trouble understanding abilities written like this (Dominate power, Mind control, etc.)

Thanks!

All weapons and it can target any valid target per the normal shooting rules.

All weapons and it can target any valid target per the normal shooting rules.

I initially thought that as well, intuitively, and because if the Helbrute is within 1" of an enemy, it can pile in and take an entire additional fight phase.

But the crazed rule says it gets just a single shooting attack. And the shooting phase rules in the main rulebook suggest that's just a single shot from a single gun.

The best evidence is probably section 3 under the heading "Number of Attacks" where the rulebook states: "Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon's profile, along with the type. A weapon's type can impact the number of attacks it can make overall."

So if the Helbrute "makes a shooting attack" wouldn't that actually just be one shot from one weapon?

Tower wrote:

All weapons and it can target any valid target per the normal shooting rules.

I initially thought that as well, intuitively, and because if the Helbrute is within 1" of an enemy, it can pile in and take an entire additional fight phase.

But the crazed rule says it gets just a single shooting attack. And the shooting phase rules in the main rulebook suggest that's just a single shot from a single gun.

The best evidence is probably section 3 under the heading "Number of Attacks" where the rulebook states: "Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon's profile, along with the type. A weapon's type can impact the number of attacks it can make overall."

So if the Helbrute "makes a shooting attack" wouldn't that actually just be one shot from one weapon?

You're ignoring the paragraph before it.

"If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit."

You're ignoring the paragraph before

That's in the section called "choose ranged weapons" and appears to explain how to shoot in the shooting phase. It's not a definition of a shooting attack as referenced in the helbrute rule. In fact, in section 2, one paragraph earlier, the rules state that "having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target, or units, for the attacks." Attacks is plural. And doesn't helbrute give you just one of those attacks?

Tower wrote:

You're ignoring the paragraph before

That's in the section called "choose ranged weapons" and appears to explain how to shoot in the shooting phase. It's not a definition of a shooting attack as referenced in the helbrute rule. In fact, in section 2, one paragraph earlier, the rules state that "having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target, or units, for the attacks." Attacks is plural. And doesn't helbrute give you just one of those attacks?

No, because by that logic you'd only be able to fire 1 shot of a multi shot weapon, which breaks other rules.

It doesn't make sense from both a RaW and RaI standpoint.

No, because by that logic you'd only be able to fire 1 shot of a multi shot weapon, which breaks other rules.

It doesn't make sense from both a RaW and RaI standpoint.

Actually, I think the rules couldn't be much clearer that shooting with a unit that has multiple weapons or multiple shot weapons leads to that unit making multiple shooting attacks, not a single shooting attack.

This confusion may come from how the rules for Helbrute and other similar effects are written, and the fact that the rules don't have a defined term for one unit shooting another. If I want my Helbrute to shoot all of its weapons at your marine, I might say that the Helbrute is 'attacking' the marine during the game, but the rulebook ambiguously calls this "shooting a unit," not attacking. The rulebook seems perfectly clear that "shooting" and "fighting" involves multiple individual attacks.

1. Choose Unit to Shoot With
... Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with.

2. Choose Targets
...Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks.

4. Number of Attacks
Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made. The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefor the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon's profile, along with the weapon's type.

If the Helbrute had said "shoot as if it were the shooting phase" it would have been clear to me that it shoots all of its weapons. After all, the Helbrute rule does say that it "fights as if it were the Fight phase" if it is within 1" of an enemy unit. So its odd that they know how to use what appears to be the correct templating for fighting, but chose not to for shooting.

The Mind Control psychic power says "the model can immediately shoot another enemy unit of your choice, or make a single close combat attack against it." I interpret this as allowing a model like the Helbrute to make all of its shooting attacks (both weapons). Or the Helbrute can roll one die to attack in close combat. This power appears to be the opposite of the Helbrute rule, all of its shooting attacks, but only one combat attack.

The Dominate psychic power says "You can force the model to immediately shoot a single weapon or make a single close combat attack at an enemy unit of your choice." I interpret this as allowing a model like the Helbrute (pretending it was a character) to shoot either both shots on its twin lascanon, or either mode of the missile launcher, but not both. Or the Helbrute can roll one die to attack in close combat. In so this a hybrid, more limited version of Mind Control.

No, because by that logic you'd only be able to fire 1 shot of a multi shot weapon, which breaks other rules

What rules does this break? Do you agree that Mind Control and Dominate only allow a single hit roll in close combat, or do you interpret those as all of the model's close combat attacks as well? Does taking a single close combat attack also break other rules?

I think RAI, all of these abilities may have been intended to provide a full shooting/fight phase, and not be so specifically different from one another. Hence my reason for raising the question and asking how people are playing these.

You're trying to make 'attack' into a defined rules term when it means several different things, which is unhelpful by the writers but it's a colloquially-phrased edition.

"A shooting attack" is a model firing with all its weapons it's able to or chooses to

"Number of attacks" from a weapon is a different use of 'attacks'

Neither one is the sole, defined meaning of 'attack' in these rules.

Tower: context in the crazed rule. That is what you are missing or ignoring.

What is says: "On a roll of 6, this model immediately makes a shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase if there are no enemies within 1",..."

What you are reading: "On a roll of 6, this model immediately makes a single shooting attack, as if it were your shooting phase if there are no enemies within 1",..."

The difference is in the comma after shooting attack which would also imply the added word single.

Alternatively you might simply be leaving out the "as if it were your shooting phase" portion, that portion provides context to the "makes a shooting attack" part telling us that it is not "a" as in singular, but "a" as in the thing that you do.

Further supprt for this is a complete lack of the "makes a melee attack" if you are within 1" in the latter half of the rule(remeber a pistol in an engaged unit could damage the hellbrute in the enemy shooting phase; leading to 3 possible pile-in and full fight phase attacks for the hellbrute(4 if he gets smitten): 1 shooting phase lost wound, 1 normal fight phase, and 1 for at the end of the fight phase(and 1 in the psychic phase assuming psychic can hit/target engaged units; which it seems that they can)

Tower wrote:
But the crazed rule says it gets just a single shooting attack. And the shooting phase rules in the main rulebook suggest that's just a single shot from a single gun.

The best evidence is probably section 3 under the heading "Number of Attacks" where the rulebook states: "Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon's profile, along with the type. A weapon's type can impact the number of attacks it can make overall."

So if the Helbrute "makes a shooting attack" wouldn't that actually just be one shot from one weapon?

The rules for Overwatch (BRB, p. 182) say, in part, "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack..." In the example of play a couple of pages later (BRB, p. 185), we see two Intercessors firing Overwatch at the Plague Marines charging them, and each model gets two shots for a total of four. Clearly, "shooting attack" doesn't mean a single shot.

Now, I guess it's possible that everyone has been doing Overwatch wrong since the beginning by firing all of a unit's eligible weapons at a charging enemies, and "shooting attack" actually means firing with a single weapon. Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's right, after all. However, the Noise Marine rule Music of the Apocalypse reads, in part, "...the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons..." If we're supposed to understand that a shooting attack means fire from just one weapon, why restrict a slain Noise Marine to firing one of its ranged weapons?

Youngblood, those are all good points.

Johnny, agree that some of the rules drafters colloquially used the term "shooting attack" when they meant "shoot in the shooting phase," whereas the entire shooting section of the main rulebook treats each unit weapon as granting multiple shooting attacks (not just one).

For example, under weapon types, the rules say "A model shooting one of these weapons can make a number of attacks equal to the number written on the profile." As another example, the text for a rapid fire weapon says "double the number of attacks [this model] makes if the target is within half the weapon's maximum range."

I don't think there can be a dispute that a unit shooting makes multiple shooting attacks. But when other rules allow a model to make a shooting attack, it is very unclear to me whether it really means "take a shooting phase" or take one of the multiple shooting attacks granted by that model's weapons. For comparison, the Aeldari Strength from Death rule doesn't grant a shooting attack as if it were the shooting phase like the Helbrute does, it lets the unit "shoot as if it were your shooting phase."

I understand that everyone on here seems to agree that RAI is that you always get a full shooting phase, but I think RAW is very unclear.

Further supprt for this is a complete lack of the "makes a melee attack" if you are within 1" in the latter half of the rule(remeber a pistol in an engaged unit could damage the hellbrute in the enemy shooting phase; leading to 3 possible pile-in and full fight phase attacks for the hellbrute(4 if he gets smitten): 1 shooting phase lost wound, 1 normal fight phase, and 1 for at the end of the fight phase(and 1 in the psychic phase assuming psychic can hit/target engaged units; which it seems that they can)

I don't follow this at all. The latter half of the crazed ability is correctly written. It doesn't grant melee attacks, it lets the helbrute fight as if it were the fight phase. If the Helbrute gets dinged by Smite, it can immediately fight. If it gets wounded by a pistol, it can immediately fight. If it is wounded in melee, it can immediately fight? What am I missing? It can do exactly what you appear to be saying it can't do.

I read it as shooting all it's weapons too.

JohnnyHell,
Don't forget the Attack Characteristic, which is yet an entirely different use of the word Attack!

Tower:
If it helps; keep in mind that there are Rules that specifically state a 'single attack,' making it clear that 'a shooting attack' simply means the Model has access to the Sequence that defines said Shooting Attack.
If the Rule stated they could make a single shot from any of their guns, as Shot is a word they often use when they refer to a single shooting attack, it would then be modifying that Sequence.

Wait so is Crazed is triggered in the fight phase, you get to fight twice?

JinxDragon wrote:
JohnnyHell,
Don't forget the Attack Characteristic, which is yet an entirely different use of the word Attack!

Tower:
If it helps; keep in mind that there are Rules that specifically state a 'single attack,' making it clear that 'a shooting attack' simply means the Model has access to the Sequence that defines said Shooting Attack.
If the Rule stated they could make a single shot from any of their guns, as Shot is a word they often use when they refer to a single shooting attack, it would then be modifying that Sequence.

Oh absolutely didn't forget it, note I only listed the relevant ones for the Shooting phase, re: the OP's question.

This is the edition of colloquially-worded rules, they're not legal documents. People must respect that or the rules don't function, and it's not massively different usage in this case to previous editions.

 Sersi wrote:
Wait so is Crazed is triggered in the fight phase, you get to fight twice?

Yup. If you can lose a wound in that Phase. Crazed can be triggered.

PERFECT STORM SITUATION: A hellbrute is within 1 inch of a Massive multi model unit. It loses a wound in the Psychic phase triggering crazed (rolled a 6) - Fights the Unit

It loses a wound in the shooting phase to an AOE attack, Triggering crazed - Fights the unit... Again.

Activates in the fight phase and Attacks the Unit Normaly

Loses a wound in the fight phase... yup. Again.

Crazed can be very nice. But never Rely on it.

Isn't that most of the Choas thinking:
If this rolls well it is devastating, but it has never rolled well...

Tower wrote:
Youngblood, those are all good points.

Thanks!

Tower wrote:
I don't think there can be a dispute that a unit shooting makes multiple shooting attacks. But when other rules allow a model to make a shooting attack, it is very unclear to me whether it really means "take a shooting phase" or take one of the multiple shooting attacks granted by that model's weapons. For comparison, the Aeldari Strength from Death rule doesn't grant a shooting attack as if it were the shooting phase like the Helbrute does, it lets the unit "shoot as if it were your shooting phase."

I understand that everyone on here seems to agree that RAI is that you always get a full shooting phase, but I think RAW is very unclear.

For what it's worth, that's not what I'm saying at all.

A Shooting Phase is a distinct segment of a player's turn in which that player is permitted to select units to fire with, resolve any shooting for the models in that unit, and then repeat the process until all units that player wants to shoot with have fired. The Crazed rule doesn't allow a player to do that. It allows the Helbrute model to make a shooting attack as though it were the player's Shooting Phase. The player is not getting a Shooting Phase, full or otherwise. The player is being permitted to make a shooting attack with the Helbrute out of turn using the rules that would apply during the player's Shooting Phase. This shooting attack is made the same way any other shooting attack is made--by working through the Shooting Sequence presented in the core rules (BRB, pp. 179-181) and following the rules there.

Youngblood13 wrote:
A Shooting Phase is a distinct segment of a player's turn in which that player is permitted to select units to fire with, resolve any shooting for the models in that unit, and then repeat the process until all units that player wants to shoot with have fired. The Crazed rule doesn't allow a player to do that. It allows the Helbrute model to make a shooting attack as though it were the player's Shooting Phase. The player is not getting a Shooting Phase, full or otherwise. The player is being permitted to make a shooting attack with the Helbrute out of turn using the rules that would apply during the player's Shooting Phase. This shooting attack is made the same way any other shooting attack is made--by working through the Shooting Sequence presented in the core rules (BRB, pp. 179-181) and following the rules there.

This, I agree completely.
I actually wrote very long analytic text, but then decided I just bump up the most simple argument in this thread, which is the one quoted here.

BRB does not define Shooting Attack and it does not even mention 'shooting attack' specifically in whole "3. Shooting Phase" section. So this question is another example of poor non-exact rules writing. Most logical interpretation is the above, so Shooting Attack means resolving Shooting Sequence for Helbrute whenever the Crazed rule is triggered.

Sharazad87 wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Wait so is Crazed is triggered in the fight phase, you get to fight twice?

Yup. If you can lose a wound in that Phase. Crazed can be triggered.

PERFECT STORM SITUATION: A hellbrute is within 1 inch of a Massive multi model unit. It loses a wound in the Psychic phase triggering crazed (rolled a 6) - Fights the Unit

It loses a wound in the shooting phase to an AOE attack, Triggering crazed - Fights the unit... Again.

Activates in the fight phase and Attacks the Unit Normaly

Loses a wound in the fight phase... yup. Again.

Crazed can be very nice. But never Rely on it.

If I read the rules correctly, you might miss a few options.

In his own shooting phase, if he rolls a 1 with a plasma weapon, he could trigger the ability and fire again at the end of the shooting phase.

The Charge phase is a phase too, with overwatch. If he gets shot during overwatch, he could trigger and then fight at the end of the charge phase? Or if he fails to make his charge, he could still then fire as he is not in combat?

Fight and shoot are based on proximity when rolling the 6.

So charge phase will still be either based on fail ir success in charge.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Fight and shoot are based on proximity when rolling the 6.

So charge phase will still be either based on fail ir success in charge.

Does it do it at the end of the phase or right when it suffers the wound? Because if it's right away, it will always be a shooting attack - I think Overwatch happens before you even roll your charge dice.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Does it do it at the end of the phase or right when it suffers the wound? Because if it's right away, it will always be a shooting attack - I think Overwatch happens before you even roll your charge dice.

It happens at the end of the phase.

Youngblood13 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Does it do it at the end of the phase or right when it suffers the wound? Because if it's right away, it will always be a shooting attack - I think Overwatch happens before you even roll your charge dice.

It happens at the end of the phase.

Then yes, in that case, it depends on whether you made your charge or not as mentioned.