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Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
What I don't totally get is why people think battlesuits are out of place when wraithknights and imperial knights are in. Alright battlesuits tend to be slim-boxy while wraith is sleek-rounded and imperials are clunky-bubbly, seems like a middle ground to me. But art is subjective so whatever.

I don't think the concept of battlesuits is out of place, but I always found their aesthetic rather jarring. Tau in general always looked to me like they belonged in an entirely different universe to the other 40k stuff.

 Arandmoor wrote:


Just...GW needs to take one edition and let SM sit there and collect dust while they push everything else as hard as they can. Just let the Space Marines be a foot note for a while while other factions get to do stuff.

I have the same exact dream

I don't really "hate" a faction, I just dislike some things that just turn me away from ever collecting them.

First, Tau. Fluff is mediocre, crunch was full of high power suit spam that took precisely all of 5 mins to learn and allowed you ridiculous wins. Didn't help that many WAAC players abused the gak out of them.

Second, Eldar. Mostly for the same as Tau, but because they are so arrogant, haughty and full of it I couldn't care less for them.

Lastly, Grey Knights. Mostly because of Draigo. feth him. With a splintery, deep heat smeared broom handle.

zerosignal wrote:
Orks. I get they're iconic for the setting, but they break the whole grimdark thing way too much; I'd quite happily see them retconned into oblivion.

Orks are very grimdark. They're a race of spree killers..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did you ever see Rob Zombie's House of 1000 Corpses or The Devil's Rejects? Those are Orks. They're horrific.

Lore-wise: Tau.
Such a meager faction that really don't pose any large-scale threat and consistently get their asses handed to them by other major factions.

Tabletop: Grey Knights .
Boring to play against their limited model range. 3 Nemesis Dreadknights.. surprise, surprise.

I would certainly not say I 'hate' any faction.

I have a mild annoyance with the amount of attention Space Marines get but recognise that they are GW's most profitable line, so if that keeps the hobby rolling so be it.

For the love of the Eye, could we please get some new CSM kits though, not Legion specific I add. Case in point, Possessed, awful just awful models.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Just...GW needs to take one edition and let SM sit there and collect dust while they push everything else as hard as they can. Just let the Space Marines be a foot note for a while while other factions get to do stuff.

Hate is a strong word..

I dont like Tau as I always felt they dont fit into the 40k universe. If GW wants to give all the anime otakus something to paint these shouldve been their own game instead or something.

I dont like the blue painted poster boy Space Marines as you get kinda fed up on seeing them all the time for 19+ years..

I dont like AM/IG as I play/collect miniatures in a crazy scifi world out in space. I would never want to play something that feels like normal humans. I got enough of it irl.

Fluff wise: Space Wolves for stated reason AND that they used to be cool till GW turned them into furries in space. Thunderwolf calvary??? Werewolves??? Seriously???

Runner-up: Tau. Space commies. I hate commies.

Tabletop: Necrons. While not always OP, they have had aggrevating rules over multiple editions.

Runner-up: Tau. This is 40k. Not Robotech.

Graceslick wrote:

I dont like Tau as I always felt they dont fit into the 40k universe. If GW wants to give all the anime otakus something to paint these shouldve been their own game instead or something.

I keep hearing that Tau look like anime stuff but I'm just not seeing it (either in the artwork for them or in the models them).

Is there a specific anime that they resemble?

I understand people tire of the space marines over exposure, but how can you hate them? This is their story. The story arc of Darth Vader is what drives the first six Star Wars films. Wouldn't it sound funny to hear someone say they like the new movies because Darth Vader isn't in them? Everyone has the right to their opinion but it would be a bizarre thing to hear. There is no Star Wars without Darth Vader. Same goes for space marines.

I don't get why I see people begging for plastic sisters in every comment section of every warhammer article I read. I have a theory it must be a running joke I'm not aware of. How can so many people be enthralled by sisters? Chicks with stupid top knots, AND THEYRE NOT EVEN HAWT!

Custodes, I don't get it.

I agree with half the board about the Space Wolves. They're the only Legion I don't like. I hoped Dan Abnett could make them cool in Prospero Burns, but nope. It's a shame too, the majority of my blood line is Nordic. I wish I liked them but I can't.

STRONGLY DISAGREE with negative attitudes towards Orks. Loosen up guys! Scary murderous orks are awesome. Silly ork hijinx is awesome. Their levity is sorely needed in 40k. I know I know. Grimdark. We have to have all grimdark all the time. But you know what? Everyone likes ranch. That doesn't mean you have to eat ranch eggs for breakfast and a ranch sandwich for lunch and ranch-steak with a side of ranch potatoes and ranch corn for dinner. Enjoy more than one flavor. Diversify your palette

 SolidOakie wrote:
I understand people tire of the space marines over exposure, but how can you hate them? This is their story. The story arc of Darth Vader is what drives the first six Star Wars films. Wouldn't it sound funny to hear someone say they like the new movies because Darth Vader isn't in them? Everyone has the right to their opinion but it would be a bizarre thing to hear. There is no Star Wars without Darth Vader. Same goes for space marines.

On the contrary, I'd say that Darth Vader is the reason many people dislike the prequel films.

In the original trilogy, Vader did indeed have an arc. However, his arc is *not* what drives those films and it's certainly not what's at the heart of them (which is Luke).

Now, just to be clear, I think Darth Vader is a great character and an integral part of the initial Star Wars trilogy. However, Vader was also just a small part in a bigger story. In A New Hope, Darth Vader is in the film for all of 12 minutes. That's it. Yes, Darth Vader was an important character, but the films didn't revolve around him in the way you seem to be suggesting.

Then the prequels came. First off, no, they weren't in any way a character story for Darth Vader. He was supposed to have been a great Jedi and friend to Obi Wan who fell to the dark side. That could have made for a great story, yet there is no evidence of any real friendship nor even any fall. Anakin has no arc - he's just an donkey-cave who never changes throughout the entirety of the prequels.

What's more, suddenly Vader was the key to everything ever. He was suddenly destined to be The Chosen One and The One Who'll Bring Balance to the Force and the one destined to be the most powerful Jedi ever. None of that seems to relate to anything in the original trilogy. In this regard, I'd say that Darth Vader is indeed a good metaphor for Space Marines. Both are iconic of their respective universes and both were once interesting. However, they were then pushed into the limelight for the most contrived reasons and to the exclusion of everything else that made their stroies and universes great to begin with - including their own characters.

I guess you're right. I chose my words poorly. What I should have said is Darth Vader is the entity that the movie is based around. He's like the Christmas tree before any lights or ornaments get put on. You have to have him in order to "stage" everything else. Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han, those are the real characters, but they wouldn't have had a story without Vaders foundation.

Now I am going to have to distance myself from my own metaphor. The Space Marines are a lot more than a bare Christmas tree. Every story needs larger than life heroes. That is the space marines purpose. I am on the 25th book in the Horus Heresy series. The story of the Heresy is frankly the coolest thing ive ever read, and it keeps on giving. I am not trying to argue opinion in this case, like I said, I understand people get sick and tired of rapid fire SM releases. What I find funny is people seem to hold a grudge against them because of it

WH40k players disliking space marines is like a sports team fan disliking their own star player.

Space Marines for the most part don't have an arc. Nothing ever effects them meaningfully. They fight, they fight, if the character doesn't have a model they might die, they fight again. "The Chapter was almost wiped out at the batlte of X, but mysteriously is back at full strength now for reasons..."

So I don't really understand the comparison with Vader. You could like Star Wars and hate Vader, just as you could hate RG and love 40k. The universe is bigger than they are.

Anyway what I want from fluff is consistency. What I dislike is how chapters take on basically every trait (World Eaters alone seem immune to this) as required.

"We are the cunningest, the strongest, the shootiest, the foremost CQC expert, we are the [Insert Chapter Name Here]!" (probably Ultramarines).

No. You can't logically be all things to all men. Pick something and stick to it. Space Wolves are specially egregious on this.

Grey Knight fluff is frankly less Grimdark than the Tau.

In that respect I also get people's point about Orks. The writers are clearly divided between "completely not scary comic relief" and "no seriously, they are a threat, look they have axes and stuff". It isn't consistent and it does stand out.

Space Wolves, their fluff both current, old and preheresy is irritating.
Daemons, demons are supposed to be beings of pure hell, utterly terrifying, a perversion whose very presence corrupts reality. Instead we have a bunch of goofy, cartoony, multicoloured models that wouldn't look out of place on a kids show, some of the models are serviceable, the majority are pure crap.
Oh and chaos marines look awful, they still look like space marines with spikes glued on.

Actually I AM getting sick of the Skywalkers and how every friggen new movie in the Star Wars universe is a lesser rehash of the old ones. For gods sakes the Force Awakens is the SAME MOVIE as the original movie but worse in every way except the special effects.

Rey is borderline mary sue at this point as well and can do almost anything required by the plot.

The more I think back on these new movies the worse they are. Also we seen three prequel movies with Anakin/Vader and without a doubt they are some of the most hated movies of all time for how bad they are.

Rogue One had some great action scenes, but again we seen the majority of that stuff before. We've seen X-Wings, and star destroyers, and the death star. I will say it has the best action scene in the entire series, but an action scene doesn't make an interesting memorable movie.

Now we're going to get a dumb han-solo prequel movie. At this point not a single original character with their own motivations that has nothing to do with any established character/plot exists in any of these movies.

Nothing new or interesting has been added to the Star Wars universe. At least the prequels are more memorable in a weird way for how bad they are. The sequels have all been by the book studio playing it safe bland affairs I can barely remember.

The Last Jedi might redeem Force Awakens for me, but I doubt it. The Han Solo movie is having development problems too now and switching directors like crazy.

So yeah maybe the world is getting sick of seeing Darth Vader since none of the movies that have had a big focus on him have had any critical long standing success.

Darth Vader is actually being ruined for a new generation now. "Make sure not to choke on your ambitions" pun in Rogue One was awful dad level joke.

Edit
I am truly sick of Space Marines and think they need a year long break so everyone else can get stuff. They won't cease to exist as a faction and if the players of other factions can tough it out for god knows how long one year of marine free releases is not going to kill off their line. It's not like Forgeworld is going to ever stop making marines every release now.

 SolidOakie wrote:

STRONGLY DISAGREE with negative attitudes towards Orks. Loosen up guys! Scary murderous orks are awesome. Silly ork hijinx is awesome. Their levity is sorely needed in 40k. I know I know. Grimdark. We have to have all grimdark all the time. But you know what? Everyone likes ranch. That doesn't mean you have to eat ranch eggs for breakfast and a ranch sandwich for lunch and ranch-steak with a side of ranch potatoes and ranch corn for dinner. Enjoy more than one flavor. Diversify your palette

The flavor of Orks tastes awful, to me, their levity isn't fun, their models and aesthetics are crap, their style of play doesn't appeal to me, they're loud and annoying (in video games), I feel they had free passes fpr stupid things that would have people complain far more if they were from other faction (that biker that blew up a Titan head with his claw, the one that turned characters to squigs).

vipoid wrote:I don't think the concept of battlesuits is out of place, but I always found their aesthetic rather jarring. Tau in general always looked to me like they belonged in an entirely different universe to the other 40k stuff.

Tau vehicles actually look to take some nods from the Craftworld Vehicles, but more 'human' and less exotic. The Stealth Suits were of similar set up. The Crisis Suits are a different story, being very blocky as opposed to the smooth curves we see everywhere else in the army.

daBIGboss wrote:Lore-wise: Tau.
Such a meager faction that really don't pose any large-scale threat and consistently get their asses handed to them by other major factions.

True. Custodes are far worse, however. Unless you're doing a raid on the Golden Throne, why would they be showing up? In modern global terms it would be as if Lesotho or Swaziland suddenly jumped up to 1st World tech and manufacturing and started conquering southern Africa, but weren't complete a-holes to the conquered.

daBIGboss wrote:Tabletop: Grey Knights .
Boring to play against their limited model range. 3 Nemesis Dreadknights.. surprise, surprise.

So that makes Deathwatch, Custodes, Harlequins, and Sisters of Silence so much joy, too.

vipoid wrote:

Graceslick wrote:

I dont like Tau as I always felt they dont fit into the 40k universe. If GW wants to give all the anime otakus something to paint these shouldve been their own game instead or something.

I keep hearing that Tau look like anime stuff but I'm just not seeing it (either in the artwork for them or in the models them).

Is there a specific anime that they resemble?

I feel the same. Eldar share more with in common with anime tropes than do the Tau. I think they focus too much on the battlesuit consideration, which actually shares more in common with Heinlein's Starship Troopers than any Gundam or Valkyrie. The Crisis Suit also bears more resemblance to Canadian Dream Pod 9's Northern Heavy Gear design as well.

Meanwhile, with the Eldar, we have soft but quick race with an emphasis on overcompensating Weapons and the ornate, flowing designs one sees in most anime.

And I should point out, anime design is Japan's take on Disney cartoon design.

GK - they will forever hold the taint of Ward's ultimate Mary Sue fantasies gone wild in my eyes.

 vipoid wrote:

Graceslick wrote:

I dont like Tau as I always felt they dont fit into the 40k universe. If GW wants to give all the anime otakus something to paint these shouldve been their own game instead or something.

I keep hearing that Tau look like anime stuff but I'm just not seeing it (either in the artwork for them or in the models them).

Is there a specific anime that they resemble?

I dont follow the 40k lore so im just focused on the looks. And all I see with Tau, especially the battlesuits etc is typical japanese cartoon/anime robots. Just google Gundam or japanese robots and you will see what I mean

The only Gundam's I think they resemble are the 08th Mobile Suit Team Gundam. They even used tanks alongside the mecha in that series. Really great show actually since it focuses more on the average pilot than some big hero.

 Gamgee wrote:
The only Gundam's I think they resemble are the 08th Mobile Suit Team Gundam. They even used tanks alongside the mecha in that series. Really great show actually since it focuses more on the average pilot than some big hero.

The Japanese aesthetic that Tau have probably doesn't help. Still, could argue outside of the Japanese influence Battletech/Mechwarrior and/or Heavy Gear are also part of what inspires the Tau theme.

Dark Eldar and "vanilla" Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion for example). Just the generic "super mean bad guy" is super boring to me. Death Guard and Thousand Sons are more interesting CSM and the Eldar are plenty dickish without "Dark" before their name.

Many mention Space Marines, but I think the Imperium as a whole is pretty interesting, with the rise and fall of paradise. The Mechanicus is amazing to, although they are not 100% Imperium. Maybe that's what makes them interesting..

GhostRecon wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
The only Gundam's I think they resemble are the 08th Mobile Suit Team Gundam. They even used tanks alongside the mecha in that series. Really great show actually since it focuses more on the average pilot than some big hero.

The Japanese aesthetic that Tau have probably doesn't help. Still, could argue outside of the Japanese influence Battletech/Mechwarrior and/or Heavy Gear are also part of what inspires the Tau theme.

They feel more a cross between Western and Chinese then Japanese, to me. But then, I'm probably more familiar with anime than the average 40K player. Seriously, the Fire Warrior armor seems to fit the style of army uniform I see in Hero than the samurai armor I see in Shogun.

I used to not like Tau very much, but they've grown on me now that they aren't portrayed as the "good guys" like they were in their very first codex.

On the other hand, I used to really love Necrons, before the newer codexes revamped them into "Tomb Kings in Space." A lot of the models got better, at least, but I preferred them as being an unknowable, unstoppable, completely alien entity.

Imperial in general, I would have loved to have been a Guard player at the time, if it didn't leave me feeling... well...
https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU?t=20

Harbringerxv8 wrote:
I used to not like Tau very much, but they've grown on me now that they aren't portrayed as the "good guys" like they were in their very first codex.

On the other hand, I used to really love Necrons, before the newer codexes revamped them into "Tomb Kings in Space." A lot of the models got better, at least, but I preferred them as being an unknowable, unstoppable, completely alien entity.

I might be mixing editions up, but wasn't it the first Tau Codex that hinted towards the origins of the Tau as being one of The Deceiver's creations and that the Ethereals were 'artificial' and able to manipulate the Tau using pheromones and the like? I remember it reading very 'utopian' in parts, but there was always a sinister undercurrent that everything wasn't quite 'right' with Tau society. The undertones always made their 'greater good assimilation' seem that much more dangerous.

And yes, I hate the new Necron lore - would be my 2nd, behind GK lore in general. The old Necron lore was so much more interesting and intriguing. Instead of bland space Egyptians.

Just like older Tyranid lore, where they weren't this ridiculous hyper-adaptive Borg-like entity that nullified anything within 5 minutes - they were just this vast, vorcacious, unstoppable force of nature. They didn't adapt in minutes or hours, there were just so many of them - literally beyond counting - and they would just keep coming and coming without pause or hesitation.

With Necron fluff I didn't mind super early stuff where it was largely mysterious.

Then the C'Tan got worked into every major universe event - and made up to be as big a threat (and potentially bigger, since they can materialise) than the Chaos Gods. It got contrived and stupid.

So some cutting back was necessary. Not totally sure the Tomb Kings in Spaaace approach was the way to do it but there you go.

I don't mind Tau fluff, I just don't like the big mechs (riptides and up) which unfortunately became their crutch.
If they became an infantry focused faction again, supported by Piranhas, Hammerhands and their aircraft being viable choices I would like them alot.

Also wouldn't mind a Kroot release. Just don't think its ever going to happen.

Tyel wrote:
With Necron fluff I didn't mind super early stuff where it was largely mysterious.

Then the C'Tan got worked into every major universe event - and made up to be as big a threat (and potentially bigger, since they can materialise) than the Chaos Gods. It got contrived and stupid.

So some cutting back was necessary. Not totally sure the Tomb Kings in Spaaace approach was the way to do it but there you go.

I don't mind Tau fluff, I just don't like the big mechs (riptides and up) which unfortunately became their crutch.
If they became an infantry focused faction again, supported by Piranhas, Hammerhands and their aircraft being viable choices I would like them alot.

Also wouldn't mind a Kroot release. Just don't think its ever going to happen.

The way they were portrayed in the FW Taros book is perfect. Riptides were introduced soon after the Dreadknight was; between those and things like Imperial Knights, it had started to feel like 40k was just going to be big robots mashing together and bringing infantry was just a handicap. Things seem to have course corrected since then, which is part of what drew me back to 8th personally at least.