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Ok, I don't play orks but I've put a few things together that looks like a huge benefit to orks in the near future: flyer nerfs and Chapter Approved release.
Flyer spam has been nerfed obviously, which was much needed for orks with their lack of options for flyer removal.
But I have seen the new Chapter Approved options ignored as a major catalyst for ork success. Primarily the change of rules for who goes first. See, we are playing a game now where going second is usually an uphill battle. For orks, they are generally built to have lots of units. I don't know a single ork player to have gone first in 8th yet. With the upcoming change (least units gets a +1 to a rolloff instead of auto first), orks will start seeing first shots, which is huge.
I'm not saying orks don't have issues with options, points, or balance. But I do see a huge win spike in the near future. When your Trukks aren't getting killed in your deployment zone, or when you Jump and fail your charge and aren't eating two rounds of shooting phases before assaulting, you have more effective options available. Orks have many rules based on model count. When those are dwindled before they get a chance to use them, they lose effectiveness quickly.
Just my 2 cents since I see a lot of doom and gloom for ork players.
Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor, or flyers, in any capacity.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/24 07:54:27
I heard someone say the new Chapter approved stuff only applies to some new mission types released in the same issue, so perhaps a lot of Ork players won't even get these benefits.
Besides, I don't think this new stuff will lead to too many Ork wins: locally my WE army and my friend's IG army have been top without flyer spam and only going 1st about 50% of the time and I've only lost to Orks once (my first game against Orks this edition) and the IG player has never lost against Orks.
(Also, Ork boyz are trash in my meta. Morka/Gorkanaughts, Cans, Mek Guns, Mega Nobz are doing far better)
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
They will probably be nerfed when the codex comes.
I have a feeling that anything good in the ork codex (Weirdboyz, Boyz, Stormboyz) will get nerfed and they will give minor buffs to units that need HUGE buffs and say "Good Enough" and then GW will sit there for another 3 years and wonder why Ork players aren't placing well in tournaments.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Nothing screams success like a heavily over priced artillery piece with a 5+ save, T5 and when it shoots averages 3-4 shots, 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds. Ohh and has a 1/6 chance to inflict a mortal wound on itself, unless of course the target has negative hit modifiers, then you could have a 1/3rd or even a 1/2 chance to kill yourself. Not to even touch on the aforementioned kill points issue.
Nothing screams success like a heavily over priced artillery piece with a 5+ save, T5 and when it shoots averages 3-4 shots, 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds. Ohh and has a 1/6 chance to inflict a mortal wound on itself, unless of course the target has negative hit modifiers, then you could have a 1/3rd or even a 1/2 chance to kill yourself. Not to even touch on the aforementioned kill points issue.
It's 10 points more than a marine with a las cannon. Lets do a surivability check.
Marine with las cannon = 1 T4 3+ save wound
Mek Gun = 5 T5 5+ save wounds +5 grots
Pretty sure there is no issue of cost for survivability here.
Damage vs rhino comparison
KMC - 1.5 D
Las Cannon - 1.37D
Hummm - more effecitve than las cannons vs rhinos. Thats just average too - KMC damage potential is much higher.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/24 18:07:09
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
fe40k wrote: Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor
Pardon?
Tankbustas in a wagon.
Or flyers, in any capacity.
Uh, they do have aircraft, Coptas and Stormboyz can assault aircraft.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Warboss and Mek and a few squads of some 30 odd boyz works with no concerns for leadership checks.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.
Kommandos can add a fair bit of pressure sneaking in.
They had no problem being a major disruption to any give gunline.
Being out of 6" of other Orks is their main problem if they take a beating.
I had a pretty good list of marines and found I could not shoot enough to kill them all.
Assault cannons and the Predator autocannon seemed to be the best for thinning the herd.
BUT with AC being within 24 of those guys advancing all the time due to assault weapons gets a bit risky.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Xenomancers wrote: Who plays with kill points really - this isn't 5th eddition? Also - who can shoot at long ranged arty when they have 90 boys in their face?
Nothing screams success like a heavily over priced artillery piece with a 5+ save, T5 and when it shoots averages 3-4 shots, 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds. Ohh and has a 1/6 chance to inflict a mortal wound on itself, unless of course the target has negative hit modifiers, then you could have a 1/3rd or even a 1/2 chance to kill yourself. Not to even touch on the aforementioned kill points issue.
It's 10 points more than a marine with a las cannon. Lets do a surivability check.
Marine with las cannon = 1 T4 3+ save wound
Mek Gun = 5 T5 5+ save wounds +5 grots
Pretty sure there is no issue of cost for survivability here.
Damage vs rhino comparison
KMC - 1.5 D
Las Cannon - 1.37D
Hummm - more effecitve than las cannons vs rhinos. Thats just average too - KMC damage potential is much higher.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 18:31:03
Xenomancers wrote: Who plays with kill points really - this isn't 5th eddition? Also - who can shoot at long ranged arty when they have 90 boys in their face?
Nothing screams success like a heavily over priced artillery piece with a 5+ save, T5 and when it shoots averages 3-4 shots, 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds. Ohh and has a 1/6 chance to inflict a mortal wound on itself, unless of course the target has negative hit modifiers, then you could have a 1/3rd or even a 1/2 chance to kill yourself. Not to even touch on the aforementioned kill points issue.
It's 10 points more than a marine with a las cannon. Lets do a surivability check.
Marine with las cannon = 1 T4 3+ save wound
Mek Gun = 5 T5 5+ save wounds +5 grots
Pretty sure there is no issue of cost for survivability here.
Damage vs rhino comparison
KMC - 1.5 D
Las Cannon - 1.37D
Hummm - more effecitve than las cannons vs rhinos. Thats just average too - KMC damage potential is much higher.
Mek Gun = T5 with 5 Wounds and a 5+ save, Grots count as a second unit entirely, And grots can only be targeted if they are the CLOSEST unit. So right off the bat either remove the 5 grots, OR keep them in front of the gun where a single volley of bolters can wipe them out and make the gun useless. Next. Lascannon Vs Rhino. hits on 3s so 2/3rd chance to hit. Wounds on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound, Does -3AP and D6 so the rhino has a 1/6th chance to save and will inflict 3.5 wounds if all that goes through on average. KMK(not KMC) has D6 shots, average roll is 3.5, hits on 4s, so averages 1-2 hits, wounds on 3s so 2/3rd chance or 4/3rd chance to wound, also has -3 AP so good chance to negate that armor and does D3 damage which averages 2. So the math is slightly in favor of the KMK you are right, of course you forget that leadership is an issue, as is the fact that it has shorter range and the ohh so important fact that the KMK has ZERO buffs it can benefit from. Put that same Lascannon next to girlyman or another SM character with rerolls and suddenly the math changes dramatically.
And as has already been pointed out, that dev Marine will be hiding in cover unless you are being silly. So he has a 2+ save not a 3+.
So given all of that and the fact that the Mek gun is basically a throwaway backfield support unit, my point stands, it isn't good. And just to put the nail firmly in that coffin, last edition Mek Gunz were significantly cheaper, had 3+ saves and T7 and people STILL weren't using them in tournament lists that often.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
Shooting at devastors in cover with no AP weapons is not very effective.
Use the high AP stuff or a hand full of that 100+ boys lurking / jumping around.
As Ork it`s easy to shield you backyard Gunline from Deepstriking stuff + look out for objectives. The marines with lower body count will have a harder time doing that.
Also loosing 1 KMK is no big deal but that Devastor getting smashed with his buddies means about 200 points going down.
And that unit will go down that moment you get something on their doorstep.
Moreover a table with terrain as it should be gives you plenty of places to put that KMK and use LOS blockers / cover. Not to mention all the high priority stuff in mixed lists thats stomping on the marines frontyard.
Plus that said Devastor squad will give you at least 4+ Mek Guns / Big Guns + the extra Grotz for the same points.
Huge advantage for backyard screening, objective camping and playing maelstrom.
As additional bonus the Grot Gunners won`t be shot of your objective with their "take cover" rule and sit on them like ticks.
Thats the exact reason why i cant take all the "orks are so bad" comparisons in vacuum serious. There are a lot more factors besides pure DPP.
Not saying we can pump out dat fine dakka like an IG Gunline or an Gulliman Donut of Death - but we can still handle ourselfes pretty well when it comes to shooting.
fe40k wrote: Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor
Pardon? Tankbustas in a wagon.
10 Tankbustas w/2 Squigs in a barebones wagon with nothing else on it or in it = 351pts. You are also providing your opponent with a nice juicy target for his Dedicated anti-tank weapons which can't shoot anything else effectively because the only competitive build is spamming T4 Ork boyz. So congrats you just handed your opponent about 20% of your list without him having to do anything.
Ohh and if by some miracle you get those 10 tankbustas in range of an enemy Tank, say a Rhino for instance. 10 tankbustas = 5hits, wounding 3s = 3-4 wounds, -2 AP = 2-3 wounds so 6-9 wounds on an enemy tank, then the squigs finish it off if you are lucky. YAY you just killed a 70pt transport for the low low cost of 351pts. In case you are missing my point, you are paying Imperial Knight Titan prices for the ability to kill a vehicle 1 time, because unless your opponent is being ridiculous with his list building your vehicle won't survive past turn 2.
Or flyers, in any capacity.
Uh, they do have aircraft, Coptas and Stormboyz can assault aircraft.
The only ork flyer that is capable of hitting a flyer reliably is the Dakkajet, if you max it out with all guns you have 18 S6 -1AP 1 damage shots, which hit a flyer on 5s so 6 hits, at S6 you are most likely wounding on 4s or 5s, most likely 5s since Stormravens are the most popular right now. SO that gives you 2-3 wounds, against that 3+ save it gets turned into a 4+ so 1-2 wounds AT THE MOST. So just need to bring about 10 to guarantee a stormraven kill....
Deff Koptas? K, First off i assume you want it to have a Killsaw to give it any kind of chance at hurting a Flyer. Going under the premise that you some how manage to catch up to a flyer you then fire its twin rokkitz at the flyer which hit on 6s, so you probably miss with both, then you assault, zero overwatch because reasons, That Kopta then hits you with 2 attacks hitting on 4s so 1 hit, wounding on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound 1 time, the AP negates your armor so 2/3rd chance to inflict 2 damage. That build also costs 111pts, So you need about 7 or 8 of these to kill a Stormraven.
Stormboyz? HAHAHAHAHA, you won't catch a flyer with Stormboyz, but if you do, 30 stormboyz have 90 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds against a 3= save = 6-7 wounds so you will need to do this TWICE to kill the flyer. Ohh and 30 stormboyz = 240pts.
So yes, Orkz have NO answer to flyers.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Warboss and Mek and a few squads of some 30 odd boyz works with no concerns for leadership checks.
That is literally what he just said, Tons of boyz with a few minor buffs is the only successful build at the moment. You can replace Boyz with Stormboyz but its basically the same thing just faster.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.
Kommandos can add a fair bit of pressure sneaking in. They had no problem being a major disruption to any give gunline. Being out of 6" of other Orks is their main problem if they take a beating.
No the main problem of Kommandos is their complete lack of function beyond being distracting. Kommandos are fielded in MSU style 1 Nob 2 Boyz and 2 Burnas. That is a grand total of 3 pistol shots in the shooting phase (burnas will be out of range) and in CC you have 4 S5 attacks, 6 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2 AP attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s and 4s. Against a Tactical Marine the nob will hit twice and wound twice on average, the boyz will hit 4 times and wound 2 times, the Burnas will hit 2.66 times and wound 1.33 times, so you have 4 regular wounds which averages 1 dead Marine and 1 -2 AP which if generous will give you a grand total of 2 dead Marines. Of course that is also not factoring in overwatch which generally will kill 1 kommando at least So leadership isn't a concern, its a combination of lack of dakka, lack of choppiness and lack of durability. Leadership is a 4th concern at most.
I had a pretty good list of marines and found I could not shoot enough to kill them all. Assault cannons and the Predator autocannon seemed to be the best for thinning the herd. BUT with AC being within 24 of those guys advancing all the time due to assault weapons gets a bit risky.
So what you are saying is that Horde is hard to beat at the moment...Yes we know, that is why we build our entire army around 90-150 Boyz.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
Shooting at devastors in cover with no AP weapons is not very effective. Use the high AP stuff or a hand full of that 100+ boys lurking / jumping around.
As Ork it`s easy to shield you backyard Gunline from Deepstriking stuff + look out for objectives. The marines with lower body count will have a harder time doing that. Also loosing 1 KMK is no big deal but that Devastor getting smashed with his buddies means about 200 points going down. And that unit will go down that moment you get something on their doorstep.
Moreover a table with terrain as it should be gives you plenty of places to put that KMK and use LOS blockers / cover. Not to mention all the high priority stuff in mixed lists thats stomping on the marines frontyard. Plus that said Devastor squad will give you at least 4+ Mek Guns / Big Guns + the extra Grotz for the same points. Huge advantage for backyard screening, objective camping and playing maelstrom. As additional bonus the Grot Gunners won`t be shot of your objective with their "take cover" rule and sit on them like ticks.
Thats the exact reason why i cant take all the "orks are so bad" comparisons in vacuum serious. There are a lot more factors besides pure DPP. Not saying we can pump out dat fine dakka like an IG Gunline or an Gulliman Donut of Death - but we can still handle ourselfes pretty well when it comes to shooting.
The only competitive ork build is horde style either with Boyz or stormboyz. There is exactly ZERO back line support for those Mek Gunz, in other words there is no shield. If the enemy can deep strike you will lose those KMKs quick, fast and in a hurry. You as an Ork player wont reverse the course of a 30 Boy squad to kill a deep striking unit or 3 so you have essentially given them the gift of your backfield AND a couple hundred points of Crap ranged support. Unless of course you are saying the Ork player has purchased a big mob of Grots to bubble wrap those gunz, in which case you have added another 90pts to their cost. Let me know when a Tournament has an Ork winner or the #1 ork placed army is filled with Mek Gunz.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/24 19:24:07
SM players really need to try 4-5 games using orks. Really. Now even KMKs have become good...
I use them but not as a gun line, they basically have the same role of gretchins. Objective campers, nothing more. If they manage to cause a few wounds good, but two gunz are 96 points and only 2D6 shots, which means an average of 7 shots and an average of 3-4 hits. Against any kind of vehicle or high T guy they can inflict a couple of wounds, each causing D3 damage, so 4 wounds stripped on average. 2-3 lascannons can cause the same damage while being more durable, cheaper and with better range. For the same points lascannons are way more effective.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/24 19:56:13
Semper makes some great points.
I struggle with games that are over 1K points because at that level Orks have no where near the efficiency as the enemy. Do I have to remind everyone the Mork/gork is almost the same price as a Knight (and more than some of the monsters and larger units in other factions) but yet have no where near the effectiveness. It baffles me how GW looked at these points and went "Yeah, they seem fine!" I have no doubt GW Play tested they just didn't play test orks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 20:29:31
To answer the unspoken question posed in the title of the thread:
No, sir, you won't see an "ork influx". Orks have been this way since the index launched, and no influx yet. They won't get their book for a while. MAYBE if they get their book they'll see a surge in popularity. But no guarantee.
Orks, as they are right now, suck, even with their one viable build they're worse off than almost every other army.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
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SemperMortis wrote: 10 Tankbustas w/2 Squigs in a barebones wagon with nothing else on it or in it = 351pts. You are also providing your opponent with a nice juicy target for his Dedicated anti-tank weapons which can't shoot anything else effectively because the only competitive build is spamming T4 Ork boyz. So congrats you just handed your opponent about 20% of your list without him having to do anything. Ohh and if by some miracle you get those 10 tankbustas in range of an enemy Tank, say a Rhino for instance. 10 tankbustas = 5hits, wounding 3s = 3-4 wounds, -2 AP = 2-3 wounds so 6-9 wounds on an enemy tank, then the squigs finish it off if you are lucky. YAY you just killed a 70pt transport for the low low cost of 351pts. In case you are missing my point, you are paying Imperial Knight Titan prices for the ability to kill a vehicle 1 time, because unless your opponent is being ridiculous with his list building your vehicle won't survive past turn 2.
Yeah, it took a great deal to kill it.
And in one round of firing they vaporized a Dreadnaught.
Maybe he was really lucky, but yeah, the only hard counter for that was keep the freaking vehicles well out of 24" range.
The only ork flyer that is capable of hitting a flyer reliably is the Dakkajet, if you max it out with all guns you have 18 S6 -1AP 1 damage shots, which hit a flyer on 5s so 6 hits, at S6 you are most likely wounding on 4s or 5s, most likely 5s since Stormravens are the most popular right now. SO that gives you 2-3 wounds, against that 3+ save it gets turned into a 4+ so 1-2 wounds AT THE MOST. So just need to bring about 10 to guarantee a stormraven kill....
That is precisely what was fielded against me is the Dakka-jet.
Not every time a marine player fields a Stormraven but it sure is a tempting replacement for a Land Raider Crusader.
You are also writing from the premise of the one unit is responsible for the entire kill.
Flyers due to their need to move so-far do become targets of opportunity.
Deff Koptas? K, First off i assume you want it to have a Killsaw to give it any kind of chance at hurting a Flyer. Going under the premise that you some how manage to catch up to a flyer you then fire its twin rokkitz at the flyer which hit on 6s, so you probably miss with both, then you assault, zero overwatch because reasons, That Kopta then hits you with 2 attacks hitting on 4s so 1 hit, wounding on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound 1 time, the AP negates your armor so 2/3rd chance to inflict 2 damage. That build also costs 111pts, So you need about 7 or 8 of these to kill a Stormraven.
Again, the buggers get a few hits in and any aircraft is busy trying to keep units off of them while the boys keep slogging along.
Stormboyz? HAHAHAHAHA, you won't catch a flyer with Stormboyz, but if you do, 30 stormboyz have 90 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds against a 3= save = 6-7 wounds so you will need to do this TWICE to kill the flyer. Ohh and 30 stormboyz = 240pts.
Target of opportunity again, the flyers basically have to do laps or fly off the board.
BUT yes with a bit of thought, your opponent may find a way to position the flyer out of reach.
Plus Ohhy yeah Stormboyz are expensive but can jump and choppy up stuff at will.
So yes, Orkz have NO answer to flyers.
Whatever, agree to disagree.
That is literally what he just said, Tons of boyz with a few minor buffs is the only successful build at the moment. You can replace Boyz with Stormboyz but its basically the same thing just faster.
Because their main #1 buff is they have zero morale issues if within 6" of any 20+ model mob and with some help with the boss.
No the main problem of Kommandos is their complete lack of function beyond being distracting. Kommandos are fielded in MSU style 1 Nob 2 Boyz and 2 Burnas. That is a grand total of 3 pistol shots in the shooting phase (burnas will be out of range) and in CC you have 4 S5 attacks, 6 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2 AP attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s and 4s. Against a Tactical Marine the nob will hit twice and wound twice on average, the boyz will hit 4 times and wound 2 times, the Burnas will hit 2.66 times and wound 1.33 times, so you have 4 regular wounds which averages 1 dead Marine and 1 -2 AP which if generous will give you a grand total of 2 dead Marines. Of course that is also not factoring in overwatch which generally will kill 1 kommando at least So leadership isn't a concern, its a combination of lack of dakka, lack of choppiness and lack of durability. Leadership is a 4th concern at most.
You are attacking marines why?
Didn't you just dismiss Ork artillery due to deep-strike?
Same darn thing applies.
My opponent was quite happy to jump the Whirlwind that was hidden away behind some line of sight blocking terrain.
So what you are saying is that Horde is hard to beat at the moment...Yes we know, that is why we build our entire army around 90-150 Boyz.
Yep, 90 was plenty.
The added toys sure made the "distractions" a royal pain as that horde was advancing which sucked back a ton of shots that could have gone elsewhere.
From what I saw, you get those 90 guys down a Warboss and a Mek and you can play around as you see fit after that.
Yes, the horde is the core, but with further supporting units that can hurt the vehicles that typically crank-out the volume of hits, that will support the win.
Adding more bodies to just weather the storm longer is an option but not the only one.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Orks seem great, especially with the new edition giving a lot of credence to weight of fire, but I think the sheer work of assembling 100+ orks will mean meta-chasers probably won't bother. I mean the tyranid swarm can be good too in huge numbers but the only people who are going to assemble and paint all those buggers is people who genuinely like tyranids.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
SemperMortis wrote: 10 Tankbustas w/2 Squigs in a barebones wagon with nothing else on it or in it = 351pts. You are also providing your opponent with a nice juicy target for his Dedicated anti-tank weapons which can't shoot anything else effectively because the only competitive build is spamming T4 Ork boyz. So congrats you just handed your opponent about 20% of your list without him having to do anything. Ohh and if by some miracle you get those 10 tankbustas in range of an enemy Tank, say a Rhino for instance. 10 tankbustas = 5hits, wounding 3s = 3-4 wounds, -2 AP = 2-3 wounds so 6-9 wounds on an enemy tank, then the squigs finish it off if you are lucky. YAY you just killed a 70pt transport for the low low cost of 351pts. In case you are missing my point, you are paying Imperial Knight Titan prices for the ability to kill a vehicle 1 time, because unless your opponent is being ridiculous with his list building your vehicle won't survive past turn 2.
Yeah, it took a great deal to kill it.
And in one round of firing they vaporized a Dreadnaught.
Maybe he was really lucky, but yeah, the only hard counter for that was keep the freaking vehicles well out of 24" range.
The only ork flyer that is capable of hitting a flyer reliably is the Dakkajet, if you max it out with all guns you have 18 S6 -1AP 1 damage shots, which hit a flyer on 5s so 6 hits, at S6 you are most likely wounding on 4s or 5s, most likely 5s since Stormravens are the most popular right now. SO that gives you 2-3 wounds, against that 3+ save it gets turned into a 4+ so 1-2 wounds AT THE MOST. So just need to bring about 10 to guarantee a stormraven kill....
That is precisely what was fielded against me is the Dakka-jet.
Not every time a marine player fields a Stormraven but it sure is a tempting replacement for a Land Raider Crusader.
You are also writing from the premise of the one unit is responsible for the entire kill.
Flyers due to their need to move so-far do become targets of opportunity.
Deff Koptas? K, First off i assume you want it to have a Killsaw to give it any kind of chance at hurting a Flyer. Going under the premise that you some how manage to catch up to a flyer you then fire its twin rokkitz at the flyer which hit on 6s, so you probably miss with both, then you assault, zero overwatch because reasons, That Kopta then hits you with 2 attacks hitting on 4s so 1 hit, wounding on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound 1 time, the AP negates your armor so 2/3rd chance to inflict 2 damage. That build also costs 111pts, So you need about 7 or 8 of these to kill a Stormraven.
Again, the buggers get a few hits in and any aircraft is busy trying to keep units off of them while the boys keep slogging along.
Stormboyz? HAHAHAHAHA, you won't catch a flyer with Stormboyz, but if you do, 30 stormboyz have 90 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds against a 3= save = 6-7 wounds so you will need to do this TWICE to kill the flyer. Ohh and 30 stormboyz = 240pts.
Target of opportunity again, the flyers basically have to do laps or fly off the board.
BUT yes with a bit of thought, your opponent may find a way to position the flyer out of reach.
Plus Ohhy yeah Stormboyz are expensive but can jump and choppy up stuff at will.
So yes, Orkz have NO answer to flyers.
Whatever, agree to disagree.
That is literally what he just said, Tons of boyz with a few minor buffs is the only successful build at the moment. You can replace Boyz with Stormboyz but its basically the same thing just faster.
Because their main #1 buff is they have zero morale issues if within 6" of any 20+ model mob and with some help with the boss.
No the main problem of Kommandos is their complete lack of function beyond being distracting. Kommandos are fielded in MSU style 1 Nob 2 Boyz and 2 Burnas. That is a grand total of 3 pistol shots in the shooting phase (burnas will be out of range) and in CC you have 4 S5 attacks, 6 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2 AP attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s and 4s. Against a Tactical Marine the nob will hit twice and wound twice on average, the boyz will hit 4 times and wound 2 times, the Burnas will hit 2.66 times and wound 1.33 times, so you have 4 regular wounds which averages 1 dead Marine and 1 -2 AP which if generous will give you a grand total of 2 dead Marines. Of course that is also not factoring in overwatch which generally will kill 1 kommando at least So leadership isn't a concern, its a combination of lack of dakka, lack of choppiness and lack of durability. Leadership is a 4th concern at most.
You are attacking marines why?
Didn't you just dismiss Ork artillery due to deep-strike?
Same darn thing applies.
My opponent was quite happy to jump the Whirlwind that was hidden away behind some line of sight blocking terrain.
So what you are saying is that Horde is hard to beat at the moment...Yes we know, that is why we build our entire army around 90-150 Boyz.
Yep, 90 was plenty.
The added toys sure made the "distractions" a royal pain as that horde was advancing which sucked back a ton of shots that could have gone elsewhere.
From what I saw, you get those 90 guys down a Warboss and a Mek and you can play around as you see fit after that.
Yes, the horde is the core, but with further supporting units that can hurt the vehicles that typically crank-out the volume of hits, that will support the win.
Adding more bodies to just weather the storm longer is an option but not the only one.
It isn't "Agree to disagree" when you are dismissing the counter points I made to your claim, if you want to change your claim to be "Yeah but with all these units we can down a Flyer" thats fine, but then you are looking at a DRASTIC increase in the price of units required to down a single flyer. And that is also COMPLETELY discounting the flyers dakka. A Stormraven can GUT a Boyz mob in 1 turn and has no problem dealing with single Deff Koptas or the occasional mob of Stormboyz. Orks have NO ANSWER to flyers right now because with hard to hit our dakka is reduced in efficiency by 50%. So we are left with killing it in CC and the only unit that is feasible to do that is stormboyz who are CRAP at killing a flyer because the flyer moves 3 times as fast.
To your point about Kommandos attacking Marines, yeah I guess I just play in a significantly more competitive Meta then you do, because none of the SM players I play against leave unsupported units out in the open for me to lock in CC for the game. My last game was against an UltraSmurf gunline with Girlyman in the center of it giving EVERYTHING rerolls. He bubble wrapped his tanks and expensive devestator units in Tacticals/Primaris and Scouts. So why would I assault Marines with Kommandos? because it was the only option beyond keeping 2 units in reserve to cap objectives late round.
Finally on to the Battlewagon with Bustas in it. A Battlewagon has T7, 4+ and what 14wounds? 4 Lascannons with rerolls do 4 hits on average, 4 wounds on average and with -3 AP they negate its save so they then do D6x4 damage which is 14wounds on average. So a single Lascannon Dev Squad can gut a Battlewagon, but if it fails you should have a couple extra guns lying around like a Asscan Razorback or even a Predator with the Pred Auto-Cannon. And it can do it from 48in away(Not the asscan), where as the range of the Wagon is 24. So if you are letting a wagon with Bustas get up on you then you aren't deploying correctly nor are you bringing the right tools to the fight.
The only competitive ork build is horde style either with Boyz or stormboyz. There is exactly ZERO back line support for those Mek Gunz, in other words there is no shield. If the enemy can deep strike you will lose those KMKs quick, fast and in a hurry. You as an Ork player wont reverse the course of a 30 Boy squad to kill a deep striking unit or 3 so you have essentially given them the gift of your backfield AND a couple hundred points of Crap ranged support. Unless of course you are saying the Ork player has purchased a big mob of Grots to bubble wrap those gunz, in which case you have added another 90pts to their cost. Let me know when a Tournament has an Ork winner or the #1 ork placed army is filled with Mek Gunz.
One of the earliest lists in 8th of orkz coming 1st included multiple Big Gunz. Da Jump is better than you realise, you can jump squads of boyz around the table, including back towards your back line if you feel that is necessary, even if they are in combat. The durability of the Mek Gunz is significant, if the grots are being charged then you have time to support them with a jump, and the grots can take up a substantial amount of table space.
You go on to say "because none of the SM players I play against leave unsupported units out in the open for me to lock in CC for the game", you bring double standards into play performance. If you're a bad Ork player who can't support your back line appropriately, don't compare yourself to good SM players who know what they are doing.
Melissia wrote: To answer the unspoken question posed in the title of the thread:
No, sir, you won't see an "ork influx". Orks have been this way since the index launched, and no influx yet. They won't get their book for a while. MAYBE if they get their book they'll see a surge in popularity. But no guarantee.
Orks, as they are right now, suck, even with their one viable build they're worse off than almost every other army.
So you don't see any correlation between Ork win/loss being lower than others and the fact they go second almost every single time in a game where a majority of wins come from armies going first? I can't fathom that Orks wouldn't see a decent increase once they start going first rather than almost always going second. Even without the +1 to the rolloff, they'll still get to go first far more often. Being able to Jump or run Trukks into the enemies face and essentially having 2 turns when the other team has only had 1 at that point compared to the other way around is huge. I'm not going to say they don't have their issues at all, but being able to put Boyz in the enemy's face before they have a chance to whittle them down is a major help. Flyers seem to be the biggest complaint and they aren't even as big a problem with the recent nerfs to them. You'll see the one or two flyers in a game, but nothing like Stormraven spam you've seen before.
fe40k wrote: Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor
Pardon?
Tankbustas in a wagon.
10 Tankbustas w/2 Squigs in a barebones wagon with nothing else on it or in it = 351pts. You are also providing your opponent with a nice juicy target for his Dedicated anti-tank weapons which can't shoot anything else effectively because the only competitive build is spamming T4 Ork boyz. So congrats you just handed your opponent about 20% of your list without him having to do anything.
Ohh and if by some miracle you get those 10 tankbustas in range of an enemy Tank, say a Rhino for instance. 10 tankbustas = 5hits, wounding 3s = 3-4 wounds, -2 AP = 2-3 wounds so 6-9 wounds on an enemy tank, then the squigs finish it off if you are lucky. YAY you just killed a 70pt transport for the low low cost of 351pts. In case you are missing my point, you are paying Imperial Knight Titan prices for the ability to kill a vehicle 1 time, because unless your opponent is being ridiculous with his list building your vehicle won't survive past turn 2.
Or flyers, in any capacity.
Uh, they do have aircraft, Coptas and Stormboyz can assault aircraft.
The only ork flyer that is capable of hitting a flyer reliably is the Dakkajet, if you max it out with all guns you have 18 S6 -1AP 1 damage shots, which hit a flyer on 5s so 6 hits, at S6 you are most likely wounding on 4s or 5s, most likely 5s since Stormravens are the most popular right now. SO that gives you 2-3 wounds, against that 3+ save it gets turned into a 4+ so 1-2 wounds AT THE MOST. So just need to bring about 10 to guarantee a stormraven kill....
Deff Koptas? K, First off i assume you want it to have a Killsaw to give it any kind of chance at hurting a Flyer. Going under the premise that you some how manage to catch up to a flyer you then fire its twin rokkitz at the flyer which hit on 6s, so you probably miss with both, then you assault, zero overwatch because reasons, That Kopta then hits you with 2 attacks hitting on 4s so 1 hit, wounding on 3s so 2/3rd chance to wound 1 time, the AP negates your armor so 2/3rd chance to inflict 2 damage. That build also costs 111pts, So you need about 7 or 8 of these to kill a Stormraven.
Stormboyz? HAHAHAHAHA, you won't catch a flyer with Stormboyz, but if you do, 30 stormboyz have 90 attacks, 60 hits, 20 wounds against a 3= save = 6-7 wounds so you will need to do this TWICE to kill the flyer. Ohh and 30 stormboyz = 240pts.
So yes, Orkz have NO answer to flyers.
They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.
Warboss and Mek and a few squads of some 30 odd boyz works with no concerns for leadership checks.
That is literally what he just said, Tons of boyz with a few minor buffs is the only successful build at the moment. You can replace Boyz with Stormboyz but its basically the same thing just faster.
Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.
Kommandos can add a fair bit of pressure sneaking in.
They had no problem being a major disruption to any give gunline.
Being out of 6" of other Orks is their main problem if they take a beating.
No the main problem of Kommandos is their complete lack of function beyond being distracting. Kommandos are fielded in MSU style 1 Nob 2 Boyz and 2 Burnas. That is a grand total of 3 pistol shots in the shooting phase (burnas will be out of range) and in CC you have 4 S5 attacks, 6 S4 attacks and 4 S4 -2 AP attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s and 4s. Against a Tactical Marine the nob will hit twice and wound twice on average, the boyz will hit 4 times and wound 2 times, the Burnas will hit 2.66 times and wound 1.33 times, so you have 4 regular wounds which averages 1 dead Marine and 1 -2 AP which if generous will give you a grand total of 2 dead Marines. Of course that is also not factoring in overwatch which generally will kill 1 kommando at least So leadership isn't a concern, its a combination of lack of dakka, lack of choppiness and lack of durability. Leadership is a 4th concern at most.
I had a pretty good list of marines and found I could not shoot enough to kill them all.
Assault cannons and the Predator autocannon seemed to be the best for thinning the herd.
BUT with AC being within 24 of those guys advancing all the time due to assault weapons gets a bit risky.
So what you are saying is that Horde is hard to beat at the moment...Yes we know, that is why we build our entire army around 90-150 Boyz.
It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.
Shooting at devastors in cover with no AP weapons is not very effective.
Use the high AP stuff or a hand full of that 100+ boys lurking / jumping around.
As Ork it`s easy to shield you backyard Gunline from Deepstriking stuff + look out for objectives. The marines with lower body count will have a harder time doing that.
Also loosing 1 KMK is no big deal but that Devastor getting smashed with his buddies means about 200 points going down.
And that unit will go down that moment you get something on their doorstep.
Moreover a table with terrain as it should be gives you plenty of places to put that KMK and use LOS blockers / cover. Not to mention all the high priority stuff in mixed lists thats stomping on the marines frontyard.
Plus that said Devastor squad will give you at least 4+ Mek Guns / Big Guns + the extra Grotz for the same points.
Huge advantage for backyard screening, objective camping and playing maelstrom.
As additional bonus the Grot Gunners won`t be shot of your objective with their "take cover" rule and sit on them like ticks.
Thats the exact reason why i cant take all the "orks are so bad" comparisons in vacuum serious. There are a lot more factors besides pure DPP.
Not saying we can pump out dat fine dakka like an IG Gunline or an Gulliman Donut of Death - but we can still handle ourselfes pretty well when it comes to shooting.
The only competitive ork build is horde style either with Boyz or stormboyz. There is exactly ZERO back line support for those Mek Gunz, in other words there is no shield. If the enemy can deep strike you will lose those KMKs quick, fast and in a hurry. You as an Ork player wont reverse the course of a 30 Boy squad to kill a deep striking unit or 3 so you have essentially given them the gift of your backfield AND a couple hundred points of Crap ranged support. Unless of course you are saying the Ork player has purchased a big mob of Grots to bubble wrap those gunz, in which case you have added another 90pts to their cost. Let me know when a Tournament has an Ork winner or the #1 ork placed army is filled with Mek Gunz.
Who said there are only Big guns back there?
SAG Mek, Lootas, tanks, Grotz - there is plenty of stuff and as i said in my post it is easy for orks to shield your backyard from deep striking units. Especially if you just need to do this until turn 3.
I don´t even need to bubble wrap when there is no space to deepstrike.
Did this a lot and worked really good. Of course you need to adapt after first losses, which will come.
Finally on to the Battlewagon with Bustas in it. A Battlewagon has T7, 4+ and what 14wounds? 4 Lascannons with rerolls do 4 hits on average, 4 wounds on average and with -3 AP they negate its save so they then do D6x4 damage which is 14wounds on average. So a single Lascannon Dev Squad can gut a Battlewagon, but if it fails you should have a couple extra guns lying around like a Asscan Razorback or even a Predator with the Pred Auto-Cannon. And it can do it from 48in away(Not the asscan), where as the range of the Wagon is 24. So if you are letting a wagon with Bustas get up on you then you aren't deploying correctly nor are you bringing the right tools to the fight.
Well it`s 16 wounds and in most cases there will be a KFF Mek.
And since you always like to point out what that all together costs, the same goes for the marines. RG + Devastors and we`re clocking in 500+ which is allready almost 100 points over the battlewaggon + tankbustas + Mek.
Even with RG they average on 3,5 wounds, so a bit over 2 with KFF which will definitly not kill the BW in one turn. Your Predator and Razorback btw add another 300 points.
Then there is the thing with the terrain, which should include LOS blockers, except you meta is wastelands. This should at least safe the BW from the alpha strike, maybe even until turn 2 where he gets in 24".
Unless it gets blown up in 1 turn you can always repair the BW which can sum up to a hand full of extra wounds.
And even if you get it down the BW with that additional tanks, Tankbustas and the Mek are still alive unless you fire with even more stuff (Marines) on them.
So almost 1000 points to bring down a BB and Bustas for 350 points? Don`t see your point.
You're right Hoodwink, going first changes the game. Orkz have roughly a 50% chance to be in CC after a jump, if that is successful you own a large part of the board for objectives or you have charged some heavy artillery. Of course not losing 300 points worth of units before playing also helps. I don't think this will cause an influx of wins, but definitely evens the playing field for Orkz since we are slightly under-performing at the moment.
hollow one wrote: You're right Hoodwink, going first changes the game. Orkz have roughly a 50% chance to be in CC after a jump, if that is successful you own a large part of the board for objectives or you have charged some heavy artillery. Of course not losing 300 points worth of units before playing also helps. I don't think this will cause an influx of wins, but definitely evens the playing field for Orkz since we are slightly under-performing at the moment.
I don't believe they will sky-rocket to the top, but right now on our own statistics thread the Orks are sitting at roughly one win for every two losses. I really feel like they are going to go up to a solid even win loss ratio. That's a pretty big change. The issue with Orks is fairly multi-faceted. There's not a single issue. I'll go back to my other point from the original post as well, Orks gain several benefits from having a model count over a certain number. Going second drastically reduces the chance they get to use those added benefits at all in the game. It's not even like Orks are hopeless right now. They are still getting wins in. I just see them easily being 50/50 when they start going first. Not top of the charts by any means, but a solid competitor.
hollow one wrote: You're right Hoodwink, going first changes the game. Orkz have roughly a 50% chance to be in CC after a jump, if that is successful you own a large part of the board for objectives or you have charged some heavy artillery. Of course not losing 300 points worth of units before playing also helps. I don't think this will cause an influx of wins, but definitely evens the playing field for Orkz since we are slightly under-performing at the moment.
Totally agree with you.
That new objective secured also helps a lot with all the boys rushing into the enemy. They still have the numbers if the enemy has objective secured as well.
It´s a slight bumber for Stormboys / Kommandos if you wanna grab objectives with them and there camps a enemy troops unit with high durability and small body count.
I think Orks need some buffs before they start making gains. Most of their units and weapons are just generally overpriced when considered with the way 8th works.
They're a melee focused army that has access to a lot of cool but unreliable and inaccurate weaponry. That's going to make it hard to balance out I think.
GW really needs to get rid of the whole d6 roll for blast weapons and just go straight to a set amount in my opinion, for all armies.
argonak wrote: I think Orks need some buffs before they start making gains. Most of their units and weapons are just generally overpriced when considered with the way 8th works.
They're a melee focused army that has access to a lot of cool but unreliable and inaccurate weaponry. That's going to make it hard to balance out I think.
GW really needs to get rid of the whole d6 roll for blast weapons and just go straight to a set amount in my opinion, for all armies.
I proposed that GW should have made templates equal to the total number of models in the unit you are attacking up to a maximum value. It's easy, concise, and isn't difficult to figure out. E.g. if you have a Heavy Flamer that is normally Assault d6 and instead would be something like Blast (whatever you want to name them) 8, it would make up to 8 attacks if the unit has 8 or more models. If you use it against a unit of 5 Custodes, you'd only get 5 hits. If you use it against a squad of 30 Boyz, you'd get the full 8 hits. That puts templates back where they were. Templates never hit a model more than a single time without taking wound allocation into play with multiple multi-wound models.
hollow one wrote: You're right Hoodwink, going first changes the game. Orkz have roughly a 50% chance to be in CC after a jump, if that is successful you own a large part of the board for objectives or you have charged some heavy artillery. Of course not losing 300 points worth of units before playing also helps. I don't think this will cause an influx of wins, but definitely evens the playing field for Orkz since we are slightly under-performing at the moment.
Totally agree with you.
That new objective secured also helps a lot with all the boys rushing into the enemy. They still have the numbers if the enemy has objective secured as well.
It´s a slight bumber for Stormboys / Kommandos if you wanna grab objectives with them and there camps a enemy troops unit with high durability and small body count.
Yeah, Orkz will likely be in the running for best troop in the game once they get objective secured. Their cost per model and ability to clear objectives with CC, or just outnumber and take it anyway, will be a huge boon. Plus their mobility with Da Jump is just bonkers.
