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hollow one wrote:


One of the earliest lists in 8th of orkz coming 1st included multiple Big Gunz. Da Jump is better than you realise, you can jump squads of boyz around the table, including back towards your back line if you feel that is necessary, even if they are in combat. The durability of the Mek Gunz is significant, if the grots are being charged then you have time to support them with a jump, and the grots can take up a substantial amount of table space.

You go on to say "because none of the SM players I play against leave unsupported units out in the open for me to lock in CC for the game", you bring double standards into play performance. If you're a bad Ork player who can't support your back line appropriately, don't compare yourself to good SM players who know what they are doing.

A Good ork player doesn't keep his army in the backfield because the only competitive units are CC oriented, so if you are camping in the back guarding some useless Mek Gunz you have already given up. Do you play orkz? I am not trying to be mean but honestly if you do and you keep your army back you must have a W/L ratio of 0. That or your meta is so lackluster that you can get away with that kind of strategy.

As far as "Da Jump" Yes you can Jump 1 unit a turn, Its very useful and I use it in my tournament lists every single time, I don't underestimate it, however you seem to think you should be jumping units backwards in order to protect those Mek Gunz... The durability of the Mek gun is non-existent. T5 with a 5+ Save isn't durable. Its only "Durable" because of its relatively high wound count, which i guess I need to remind you is not as durable as you think since there are so many weapons with multiple damage. Hell a Lascannon has a 1/3rd chance to 1 shot the thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grotrebel wrote:

Who said there are only Big guns back there?
SAG Mek, Lootas, tanks, Grotz - there is plenty of stuff and as i said in my post it is easy for orks to shield your backyard from deep striking units. Especially if you just need to do this until turn 3.
I don´t even need to bubble wrap when there is no space to deepstrike.
Did this a lot and worked really good. Of course you need to adapt after first losses, which will come.

Ahh, so instead of having 1 or 2 cheap objective grabbing units you are doubling down and investing in a gunline for orkz. Ork Gunzlines are absolute trash right now. SAG Big Mekz are 100pts and have a D6 shot S2D6 weapon that only does D3 damage. The average D6 roll is 3.5 which means you will on average hit 1 time with it, so you are paying 100pts for a single shot S7 (average) weapon that only does D3 damage. Lootas? You can't field lootas unless you put them in a trukk or a wagon because they die to a stiff breeze. So you are spending 170pts for 10 lootas and another 80ish pts for a Trukk, those 10 lootas give you 20 shots on average, 6.6 hits on average and against a T7 vehicle 3 wounds on average at -1 AP and 2 damage. I have no idea what you are using for Tanks unless you are equipping a wagon with lots of gunz which is a massive waste of points.

 Grotrebel wrote:

Well it`s 16 wounds and in most cases there will be a KFF Mek.
And since you always like to point out what that all together costs, the same goes for the marines. RG + Devastors and we`re clocking in 500+ which is allready almost 100 points over the battlewaggon + tankbustas + Mek.
Even with RG they average on 3,5 wounds, so a bit over 2 with KFF which will definitly not kill the BW in one turn. Your Predator and Razorback btw add another 300 points.
Then there is the thing with the terrain, which should include LOS blockers, except you meta is wastelands. This should at least safe the BW from the alpha strike, maybe even until turn 2 where he gets in 24".
Unless it gets blown up in 1 turn you can always repair the BW which can sum up to a hand full of extra wounds.
And even if you get it down the BW with that additional tanks, Tankbustas and the Mek are still alive unless you fire with even more stuff (Marines) on them.

So almost 1000 points to bring down a BB and Bustas for 350 points? Don`t see your point.

Well since we are playing the points game, The big Mek with KFF adds another 75pts to that total so your math would be almost 1,000pts can INSTA Kill 425pts of the enemy on turn 1. That is a pretty damned good trade off in my books. The big difference you are missing in that equation is that at the end of that 1 turn the Ork player is now down almost 25% of a 2000pt list and the enemy is unhurt. That seems to be a rather massive disadvantage to your train of thought.

I would personally jump boyz back to protect my Mek Gunz if they were getting deepstriked, especially if the gunz were on an objective and also if i needed the gunz to penetrate some tough targets. However, if my opponent dropped half their army behind me I would reconsider, and likely win the assault across the other side of the board. It would be a consideration on how much resources they were spending on the target. If i was worried for this eventuality, I would place my weirdboyz accordingly.

I almost feel like you allocate the opponent free resources in your mind. It's like, when an opponent dedicates deepstrikes or shooting toward your artillery it's free for them, it doesn't cost them a units turn of shooting or moving, or even placement. But if we orkz send boyz back to defend, it costs us SO MUCH it's not even worth doing!

What if it cost me 100 points in boyz to jump back and hold off 200 points in terminators deepstriking? Unlikely, but definitely worth doing. Would that be okay with you? Or perhaps I turn my 20 stormboyz around, that's 160+ points.

You clearly have your way you like to play, run forward, if you're not doing that "you have already given up". But maybe you should open your mind to alternative play styles, maybe your predictability is causing you problems on the table? I don't know man, just a suggestion.

Those who say big/mek gunz are good at killing something have probably never fielded them. It's easy to calculate that you need ~5 times the price of a razorback to kill it with KMK. And big/mek gunz have a serious issue of being operated by ld5 grots. A single marine outflanking the gun model can easilly wipe the grot squad and thus the guns too. ANY mellee will wipe them. I mean really any mellee. If you do need some punch to get through a couple t4 3+ armor models with re-rollable ld 7-8, t2 and 6+ armor with ld5 just doesn't hold up to any punch at all. Comparing them to lazcannon devastators is also pretty pointless cause devastators will always be in cover and have 2+ armor and still be able to shoot and will require high ap weaponry to get removed and will probably not insta-die in mellee and will be able to move properly...and have a source of re-rolls upping their performance.

I'm not telling ork gunz are a bad unit - on the contrary, they're a pretty ok unit but not for shooting. They're used to score backfield objectives and they notably do it better than just grots most of the time. But the fact that they have some shooting is just an afterthought. It's a bad idea to get more than a couple guns cause you're taking away from what's really working and is the backbone of an ork army. Boyz.

SemperMortis wrote:


A Good ork player doesn't keep his army in the backfield because the only competitive units are CC oriented, so if you are camping in the back guarding some useless Mek Gunz you have already given up. Do you play orkz? I am not trying to be mean but honestly if you do and you keep your army back you must have a W/L ratio of 0. That or your meta is so lackluster that you can get away with that kind of strategy.

As far as "Da Jump" Yes you can Jump 1 unit a turn, Its very useful and I use it in my tournament lists every single time, I don't underestimate it, however you seem to think you should be jumping units backwards in order to protect those Mek Gunz... The durability of the Mek gun is non-existent. T5 with a 5+ Save isn't durable. Its only "Durable" because of its relatively high wound count, which i guess I need to remind you is not as durable as you think since there are so many weapons with multiple damage. Hell a Lascannon has a 1/3rd chance to 1 shot the thing.

How do you get to a 1/3 chance of killing it in one shot? 2/3 chance to hit, 2/3 chance to wound 1/6 chance of doing 6 wounds is a 2/27 chance or a 7% chance. On average it will take 4 lascannons to kill a single gun. 4 shots x 2/3 to hit x 2/3 to wound x 3.5 average wounds = 6.22 wounds. If they shoot anti infantry stuff at it, great it isn't shooting your horde. If they can deep strike in a place where they can shoot gretchin you are setting up wrong.

On the other hand a KMK does do 1 wound on average to a devastator in cover.

Don't forget that each of your gunz is a seperate squad too, so if the entire lascannon squad shoots at one they could overkill it, if they split fire there is a decent chance of only wounding the guns which then can still fire at full capacity unless your opponent dedicates more firepower at them.

I think what orks really need is more toyz on the board. I mean a lot of things should be cheaper than now in order to make bikers, meganobz, artillery, nobz, buggies and other units really viable and a concrete alternative to the horde of boyz.

I'm fine with orks profile and stats, but we should be able to stick more bodies into our lists, and not only the cheap T4 6++ bodies.

I'm currently playing with 3BWs full of boyz and ghaz, 2 trukks full of bustas, 2 KMKs, biker boss and biker kff mek. With only 8 drops I manage to go first several times, which is a big deal in 8th edition but sometimes I face lists with tons of anti tank that can cripple my army and win the game turn 1 if I go second.

The only real TAC orks list at the moment is the one with boyz+buffs. But it's terribly boring to play and the most competitive lists would beat it anyway.

I've always enjoyed playing orks, but even if this edition is clearly better than the previous one, I had more fun with 7ed orks to be honest. We could field mid tier lists with the bullyboyz formation, bikers spam and/or 8+ trukks with boyz/bustas/meganobz. 5 lobbas were also deadly and cheap, another amazing unit. Sometimes even the blitz brigade formation with 5 BWs worked. Now we litterally have only boyz. And stormboyz, which are faster boyz. For the first time in my life I have more fun with my other armies.

hollow one wrote:
I would personally jump boyz back to protect my Mek Gunz if they were getting deepstriked, especially if the gunz were on an objective and also if i needed the gunz to penetrate some tough targets. However, if my opponent dropped half their army behind me I would reconsider, and likely win the assault across the other side of the board. It would be a consideration on how much resources they were spending on the target. If i was worried for this eventuality, I would place my weirdboyz accordingly.

I almost feel like you allocate the opponent free resources in your mind. It's like, when an opponent dedicates deepstrikes or shooting toward your artillery it's free for them, it doesn't cost them a units turn of shooting or moving, or even placement. But if we orkz send boyz back to defend, it costs us SO MUCH it's not even worth doing!

What if it cost me 100 points in boyz to jump back and hold off 200 points in terminators deepstriking? Unlikely, but definitely worth doing. Would that be okay with you? Or perhaps I turn my 20 stormboyz around, that's 160+ points.

You clearly have your way you like to play, run forward, if you're not doing that "you have already given up". But maybe you should open your mind to alternative play styles, maybe your predictability is causing you problems on the table? I don't know man, just a suggestion.

If you are scooting a blob of boyz backfield to keep the enemy from killing a mek gun or capping an objective in your deployment zone what you have then done is taken away 30 boyz from fighting his main units. My last tournament list was 90 boyz, 40 Stormboyz 35 Kommandos 4 Deff Koptas, 2 Weirdboyz a KFF Big Mek and Grotsnik and Ghaz. If I had to Teleport 30 boyz backwards they would then be used for the rest of the game to hold a backfield objective because at that point there is no viable way to get them back up the field and into combat in a timely manner. 5in movement and 3-4in advance means 3 turns of moving just to recross no mans land. If I did the same with my Stormboyz that means they have been taken away from their primary mission which is to reinforce the boyz and hit the flanks while his main units are distracted hitting boyz. I could drop Kommandos in because I kept all 7 units in reserve, but against most MEQ deep strikers they can't do much.

And I tend to finish in the top 3 of tournaments, even last edition as well. I unfortunately got screwed in my last tournament, I would have won a minor victory against the #1 guy which would have propelled me to 2nd or possibly 1st but the new Marine codex gave him the edge in Obsec infantry. I had 50+ models on the objective, but he had 2 tactical Marines in range

SO what does your tournament list look like and how does it fair in ITC events?

Oh man I might have hit a nerve there sorry, seriously was only a suggestion. I don't understand you man, all you do is complain on these forums about the performance of Orks when at the same time all you're doing is top 3'ing tournaments? You confuse me.

 Grotrebel wrote:

It also has shorter range, and no available buffs, those devestators will be in cover getting a 2+ Save. It also has a tougher time moving, cannot be transported, only 3" move. It also always has gets hot, so any negative modifier against it is potentially devastating. It is also harder to get cover for as it is a vehicle.

Shooting at devastors in cover with no AP weapons is not very effective.
Use the high AP stuff or a hand full of that 100+ boys lurking / jumping around.

As Ork it`s easy to shield you backyard Gunline from Deepstriking stuff + look out for objectives. The marines with lower body count will have a harder time doing that.
Also loosing 1 KMK is no big deal but that Devastor getting smashed with his buddies means about 200 points going down.
And that unit will go down that moment you get something on their doorstep.

Moreover a table with terrain as it should be gives you plenty of places to put that KMK and use LOS blockers / cover. Not to mention all the high priority stuff in mixed lists thats stomping on the marines frontyard.
Plus that said Devastor squad will give you at least 4+ Mek Guns / Big Guns + the extra Grotz for the same points.
Huge advantage for backyard screening, objective camping and playing maelstrom.
As additional bonus the Grot Gunners won`t be shot of your objective with their "take cover" rule and sit on them like ticks.


Thats the exact reason why i cant take all the "orks are so bad" comparisons in vacuum serious. There are a lot more factors besides pure DPP.
Not saying we can pump out dat fine dakka like an IG Gunline or an Gulliman Donut of Death - but we can still handle ourselfes pretty well when it comes to shooting.

Ummm.... I'm orks I don't have high AP weapons that actually hit anything. I won't be able to da jump a unit to hit those devastators against a good opponent as 10 scouts can block all deepstriking into the SM fire base very easily, and cost less than whatever I'm shielding my back line with, in addition almost every armies heavy weapons out range the KMKs.

If we are talking about high AP fire power you are looking at probably looking at fewer hits needed to kill the KMK than a devastator squad (2 lascannons can do it pretty reliably they cannot kill the dev squad, they will kill 1 lascannon at best.)

KMK only get cover when 50% obscured so unless they don't have LOS (If they do so do units have to them) they are not likely to get cover.

a lascannon dev squad is 165 (170 with the cherub), For 192 points (more than the dev squad) you get 4 with grots.

If you have a back field objective the grots are nice to have, but if not they are largely useless, and if you only have one back field objective plenty of them are useless.

The range on them is really the big factor though as to be useful they need to deploy a bit forward otherwise they will be outrange by the enemy.

Ork shooting is pretty bad compared to most other armies, KMK are OK, they aren't great and other armies do the same or better for fewer points with more advantages.

SemperMortis wrote:
Do you play orkz?

He claimed to at one point I think, but I don't actually believe him after all the bluster he's made.

1) Chapter approved will help out Orks quite a bit. Not because of the roll off for first turn, but because troops are made ob sec, which benefits Orks more than most armies.

2) The roll off for first turn will not do a lot for Orks, or anyone else for that matter. There is already a 30% chance of seizing initiative with a reroll, so the roll off will not change much.

3) KMKs are not awful, but they are not very good either.

 koooaei wrote:
Those who say big/mek gunz are good at killing something have probably never fielded them. It's easy to calculate that you need ~5 times the price of a razorback to kill it with KMK. And big/mek gunz have a serious issue of being operated by ld5 grots. A single marine outflanking the gun model can easilly wipe the grot squad and thus the guns too. ANY mellee will wipe them. I mean really any mellee. If you do need some punch to get through a couple t4 3+ armor models with re-rollable ld 7-8, t2 and 6+ armor with ld5 just doesn't hold up to any punch at all. Comparing them to lazcannon devastators is also pretty pointless cause devastators will always be in cover and have 2+ armor and still be able to shoot and will require high ap weaponry to get removed and will probably not insta-die in mellee and will be able to move properly...and have a source of re-rolls upping their performance.

I'm not telling ork gunz are a bad unit - on the contrary, they're a pretty ok unit but not for shooting. They're used to score backfield objectives and they notably do it better than just grots most of the time. But the fact that they have some shooting is just an afterthought. It's a bad idea to get more than a couple guns cause you're taking away from what's really working and is the backbone of an ork army. Boyz.

It's even worse for las cannons...so - it's really not unusual to need to spend about 3-4x the cost of what you are shooting at to bring it down (if it's a tank)

SemperMortis wrote:

Spoiler:

It isn't "Agree to disagree" when you are dismissing the counter points I made to your claim, if you want to change your claim to be "Yeah but with all these units we can down a Flyer" thats fine, but then you are looking at a DRASTIC increase in the price of units required to down a single flyer. And that is also COMPLETELY discounting the flyers dakka. A Stormraven can GUT a Boyz mob in 1 turn and has no problem dealing with single Deff Koptas or the occasional mob of Stormboyz. Orks have NO ANSWER to flyers right now because with hard to hit our dakka is reduced in efficiency by 50%. So we are left with killing it in CC and the only unit that is feasible to do that is stormboyz who are CRAP at killing a flyer because the flyer moves 3 times as fast.
To your point about Kommandos attacking Marines, yeah I guess I just play in a significantly more competitive Meta then you do, because none of the SM players I play against leave unsupported units out in the open for me to lock in CC for the game. My last game was against an UltraSmurf gunline with Girlyman in the center of it giving EVERYTHING rerolls. He bubble wrapped his tanks and expensive devestator units in Tacticals/Primaris and Scouts. So why would I assault Marines with Kommandos? because it was the only option beyond keeping 2 units in reserve to cap objectives late round.
Finally on to the Battlewagon with Bustas in it. A Battlewagon has T7, 4+ and what 14wounds? 4 Lascannons with rerolls do 4 hits on average, 4 wounds on average and with -3 AP they negate its save so they then do D6x4 damage which is 14wounds on average. So a single Lascannon Dev Squad can gut a Battlewagon, but if it fails you should have a couple extra guns lying around like a Asscan Razorback or even a Predator with the Pred Auto-Cannon. And it can do it from 48in away(Not the asscan), where as the range of the Wagon is 24. So if you are letting a wagon with Bustas get up on you then you aren't deploying correctly nor are you bringing the right tools to the fight.

hollow one wrote:
Oh man I might have hit a nerve there sorry, seriously was only a suggestion. I don't understand you man, all you do is complain on these forums about the performance of Orks when at the same time all you're doing is top 3'ing tournaments? You confuse me.

So because I do well with my army that I have played for over a decade I can't point out its obvious flaws and the fact that only 1 competitive list exists for it? (2 if you count replacing boyz with stormboyz). Sorry that doesn't make any sense. And ironically you didn't answer my question, what does your tournament list look like? I don't judge a codex by its for fun lists I just it based on tournament competitiveness.

And talizvar, same thing, I judge lists based on tournament level not for fun. And saying an ork gunline or at the least a bunch of ork mek gunz supported by some bubble wrap is competitive is nonsense. You will never see that in a competitive list, the most you will see is someone buying a Mek Gun and camping a backfield objective with it, he wont support it and won't reinforce it.

if you are going to use the context of Orkz for all your points and then refute my claim by saying "But whirlewinds!" then I am going to ignore you because you are moving the goal posts. Supporting ORK stay behind gunz is useless since they are throw away units at best.

What keeps a Storm raven "Busy" in your opinion? Because even top level tournament players haven't found a counter to keep it busy yet, all they do is ignore it and hope they can make up or it by killing his ground forces and capping objectives. Stormboyz are the absolute best counter we have but in order to use them you need to get Stormboyz within range and since stormboyz move 12 +D6 and the Stormraven moves 20-45....good luck catching it.

Girlyman isn't really an extreme since he is so OP that every Marine player is taking him, hell the last tournament i played had SWs being used as Ultrasmurfs because the player wanted those buffs LOL. And LoW's are taken pretty frequently at the tournament level.

Yes I do use Kommandos, but not because the model is useful in its stats, I use it because its ability to appear anywhere during my movement phase is great, A kommando is just a 9pt Boy model with a good ability. But again at the tournament level, you don't see people leaving unsupported gunlines like you seem to run into frequently. The IG player I played kept everything bubble wrapped in Conscripts the entire game, same with the smurf player and the chaos player I played against fielded a lot of cultists to screen his guns and tanks. The only time i was able to use Kommandos for their purpose was against a new Eldar Player who decided to let me kill his Vaul batteries by leaving them alone on a flank for some reason, basically the only time they are useful is against newbies and bad players.

And finally, good for you, you are using anecdotal evidence of a friend against my anecdotal evidence and years of experience. the difference? My opinion is the one being seen at the tournament levels, people aren't bringing BWs full of Tankbustas, they are fielding giant hordes of Stormboyz and Boyz though.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It's even worse for las cannons...so - it's really not unusual to need to spend about 3-4x the cost of what you are shooting at to bring it down (if it's a tank)

That's true, but you can't afford to bring 400 pt of mek gunz in an ork list cause this way you aren't bringing 400 pt of boyz. They're not compatible cause they don't bring more redundancy - and it's the only reason ork lists kinda work. Also, they're very vulnerable. A single biker will be enough to get rid of a squad of grots with their t2 6+ armor and ld4. A single tac squad will demolish this gunline in mellee.

See, orks NEED redundancy to work. Cause our most powerful stuff is mellee-oriented, not very mobile (boyz) and is pretty squishy. So, it brings a number of restrictions on the list. You can't just mix in a battlewagon, a walker or a trukk. Koptas don't also work for the same reason. And mek gunz become prime targets to anti-tank weaponry and thus are helping the opponent to get his points back. The less boyz you bring - the more you help your opponent.

I'd be surprised if the meta moved in that way.

The all boyz list can be effective - mainly because it twists the current meta. Its not bad if your opponent is spending a lot of points on plasma, melta and lascannons. Mainly because these are largely wasted on 6-9 point infantry.

Which they probably are, because killing vehicles is otherwise difficult and plasma is great versus a wide range of targets.

Its however pretty easy to gear a list to mow down boyz effectively. So if it becomes top tier you will more lists move in that direction and beat it down.

Tyel wrote:
I'd be surprised if the meta moved in that way.

The all boyz list can be effective - mainly because it twists the current meta. Its not bad if your opponent is spending a lot of points on plasma, melta and lascannons. Mainly because these are largely wasted on 6-9 point infantry.

Which they probably are, because killing vehicles is otherwise difficult and plasma is great versus a wide range of targets.

Its however pretty easy to gear a list to mow down boyz effectively. So if it becomes top tier you will more lists move in that direction and beat it down.

Pretty much what I have been saying. A couple of Asscan Razorbacks or Stormravens can basically liquefy an Ork horde in short order. The stormravens are especially ridiculous at wiping out hordes. At 12inches (which isn't hard to get at all for something that can move 45 inches) a Stormraven can put out 24 S4 shots, 12 S6 shots, 6 S5 shots and 2 S8 shots. The S6, S5 and S8 shots ignore ork armor as well. SO even without rerolls a stormraven can kill about 17ish orkz a turn. In points terms that is 102pts of orkz in 1 shooting phase. A great tactic I saw a smurf opponent pull against an Ork player at my last tournament was fielding 3 of these, they are great at killing everything so why not take them? But anyway he flew directly next to girlyman turn 1 and fired everything off at max range (Bolters were out of range) turn 2 he went into hover mode because his opponent was fielding green tide (150 Ork Boyz) buffed with Ghaz and some others. But he had 90 of them in one big blob getting buffs, the other 2 he had deep striking and doing something else I can't remember, I think it was trying to outflank and hold an objective, anyway, he had each stormraven target a different mob of boyz in the big blob and killed about 15-18 in each one (rerolls are HUGE, the ork player had painboy and 5++ and still got murdered) what the ork player did though was pull casualties from the rear because he didn't want to increase distance to enemy lines. unfortunately that put him out of range of Ghaz's aura which meant leadership was an issue. 20 casualties +D6 meant 90 boyz died in one turn, worse his characters were all exposed and to far from the other 2 mobz to be useful, game was over turn 3.

Question: Why wouldn't orks be going first? A full sized unit of boys is 180 points before upgrades. As far as a single unit goes, that's a fairly expensive single drop. Even if that's your entire army, it doesn't seem impossible for them to finish deploying first.

SilverAlien wrote:
Question: Why wouldn't orks be going first? A full sized unit of boys is 180 points before upgrades. As far as a single unit goes, that's a fairly expensive single drop. Even if that's your entire army, it doesn't seem impossible for them to finish deploying first.

8th goes by drops, tournaments go by drops +1 for rolls.

So your average 2k list has 3-6 units of 30 Boyz, Ghaz, a painboy, a Big Mek with KFF, 1-4 Weirdboyz, Banner Nob and maybe some other crap like Stormboyz or a few units of kommandos. So you usually have 8+ drops. Conversely a SM can get away with 6 or 7 easily.

So since SM had fewer drops he technically gets to go first. in Tournaments you roll off to see who goes first but the person who has the fewest drops gets +1 to their roll.

Yeah, even 6x30 boyz w/pk nob, plus HQs of big mek with kff/pk, warboss w/pk, and two weirdboyz is just barely over 1500 points.

Footslogging orks are never gonna start first unless they face a MSU army.

If you play with vehicles you might have a change to go first though, my typical list has 8 drops and sometimes I menage to get first turn.

To me is too boring to field the green tide and if I go second with a footslogging army and I face someone with tons of anti infantry like SM with 3 razorbacks and a stormraven (which are all standard units, almost auto-takes) even our most competitive list will struggle a lot.

Of course with many vehicles you may find an opponent with lesser drops than you and tons of anti tank but overall I think having good chances to go first and not getting bored of moving 200 orks is more satisfying than fielding the green tide.

I just wanted to point this out because i think i missed it when I first posted

Ok, I don't play orks but I've put a few things together that looks like a huge benefit to orks in the near future: flyer nerfs and Chapter Approved release.

Flyers didn't get nerfed, the only thing that changed was they don't count as being on the table so you cant take a giant army of flyers, and chapter approved is only giving OBSEC to Ork infantry, which we need but that is situational at best, it doesn't increase orks capabilities, it just helps us hold an objective that we should have already controlled. My own example of that is having 2 tac Marines stealing a Objective from me because they had that rule and I had 50+ models on it

I just looked this up. Last year orks had 1 player in the top 115 of ITC players, he was Ranked 113. This year (2017) we have 1 player in the top 115, he is ranked 103rd. So when people say that orks are doing well and expect more wins, point them to that fact.

SemperMortis wrote:
I don't judge a codex by its for fun lists I just it based on tournament competitiveness.

Ah, glad we have that clear.
I am glad you pointed out my experiences with a knowledgeable Ork opponent I have played for decades and your long experience as an Ork player being rather irrelevant (argument from authority is bad practice anyway).

I am unsure how you figure not having artillery or tankbustas and only boyz is the only way to go, I seem to remember a few good lists and glory-be reddit had some stuff:

https://www.reddit.com/r/orks/comments/6nvsev/competitive_ork_lists_8th_edition/

You can thank me later...
They appear to be trying to get lists together that had demonstrable wins in tournaments of within the top 3.

Pretty much everything discussed that you dismissed is there in those lists.
Please feel free to peruse and maybe you can find something that may be of more interest than the green tide.
A Wierdboy or two may help your boyz a bit more.

Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.

Have fun anyway with whatever you are playing.

 Talizvar wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I don't judge a codex by its for fun lists I just it based on tournament competitiveness.

Ah, glad we have that clear.
I am glad you pointed out my experiences with a knowledgeable Ork opponent I have played for decades and your long experience as an Ork player being rather irrelevant (argument from authority is bad practice anyway).

I am unsure how you figure not having artillery or tankbustas and only boyz is the only way to go, I seem to remember a few good lists and glory-be reddit had some stuff:

https://www.reddit.com/r/orks/comments/6nvsev/competitive_ork_lists_8th_edition/

You can thank me later...
They appear to be trying to get lists together that had demonstrable wins in tournaments of within the top 3.

Pretty much everything discussed that you dismissed is there in those lists.
Please feel free to peruse and maybe you can find something that may be of more interest than the green tide.
A Wierdboy or two may help your boyz a bit more.

Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.

Have fun anyway with whatever you are playing.

Good on ya for trying to be helpful, unfortunately you failed at that. If you had checked any of those lists you would have noticed a couple of issues right off the bat. #1 is that the 1st list is just boyz spam....more commonly known as Green Tide. All they have done is change up the accoutrements that support those boyz.

List #2 is a Power Level list, which is why you see Deff Koptas and nobz with every possible upgrade. Last time I checked ITC isn't using power level.

List #3 is a local tournament and judging by his list I wonder if he was accidentally using the rules wrong. Badrukka doesn't convey his aura when embarked and he has a unit of Flashgitz in the wagonz. They also don't benefit from the BWs special rule so they would effectively have been BS5+ models not 4+ with rerolls from Badrukka. But since we don't have any proof of his tournament who knows. Ohh, and this guys also brought 80 Boyz as well so the core of his army was still......Green Tide.

#4 and #5 are the same list and the same person, don't know if the guy messed up or not, but ironically its the best Ork player at LVO who ran.....Green Tide, Just a modified version with Stormboyz instead of Boyz.

And #6 is some weird concoction so YAY you have 1 result that isn't majority Green Tide or an offshoot of Green tide. Of course it placed 38th at BAO not 1st 2nd or 3rd and it went 3/2/1 So not exactly stellar. I have a feeling this list did so well because it was counter meta

SO your reddit site has 1 list that isn't boyz spam and 1 list that used power levels not points. The others are Boyz spam or a variant. Let me know when someone wins a big tournament with Orks and doesn't use 80+ boyz, stormboyz or Kommandos.

 Talizvar wrote:


Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.

A single stormraven can cripple a mob of boyz per turn and with gree tides there's nothing that orks can do to kill the flyer, not to mention that usually SM have lesser drops than orksWith and go first. 1-2 stormravens are also pretty much TAC so yeah, they are a huge threat at the moment. Guilliman is another popular option and he can give re-rolls to any to hit and to wound rolls for those damned flyers.

 Blackie wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.

A single stormraven can cripple a mob of boyz per turn and with gree tides there's nothing that orks can do to kill the flyer, not to mention that usually SM have lesser drops than orksWith and go first. 1-2 stormravens are also pretty much TAC so yeah, they are a huge threat at the moment. Guilliman is another popular option and he can give re-rolls to any to hit and to wound rolls for those damned flyers.

Okay, let me figure this one out:

Twin Assault Cannon: 12 shots, 3+ to hit (machine spirit), 3+ to wound (S6 vs T4), assume no saves.
So, 8 hits = 5-6 wounds, assuming no KFF or (giggle) cover.

Now typically there is the choice of HB or MM. Depends on how expensive we want to be. I will go with list tailoring for now...

Twin Heavy Bolter: 6 shots, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, assume no saves.
So 4 hits = 2-3 wounds.

I believe two missiles if I remember correctly: 2 shots, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no saves.
So about 1 hit = 1 wound.

So total dead orks is about 10 of them (being optimistic) going by a rough average there not assuming the evil Dante aura or Guiliman (if he can keep up) help.
So by "cripple" I think when a mob gets below 20 it becomes a critical thing so it is a near thing but I will give it to you (BTW assuming you field 30 at a time, if not, why?).

I will have to go back and see how many points the above Stormraven costs vs the mob of boyz, though a few people seem to like loading them up with rockets so that can vary things a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Good on ya for trying to be helpful, unfortunately you failed at that. If you had checked any of those lists you would have noticed a couple of issues right off the bat. #1 is that the 1st list is just boyz spam....more commonly known as Green Tide. All they have done is change up the accoutrements that support those boyz

Yep, good old normal list.
Wait one minute, Weird-boy and "Big Gunz Kannon", I am sorry, were we not discussing artillery at one point??
Plus gasp! some Dakka-jets?
Maybe your #1 is not the same...

List #2 is a Power Level list, which is why you see Deff Koptas and nobz with every possible upgrade. Last time I checked ITC isn't using power level.

They list the points value: of 1006pts but yeah it is an even 50pv.
I am unsure what is being dismissed here.
I like how the Koptas are kitted out but that is a lot of points in 3 models (333!).

List #3 is a local tournament and judging by his list I wonder if he was accidentally using the rules wrong. Badrukka doesn't convey his aura when embarked and he has a unit of Flashgitz in the wagonz. They also don't benefit from the BWs special rule so they would effectively have been BS5+ models not 4+ with rerolls from Badrukka. But since we don't have any proof of his tournament who knows.

A few assumptions here.
You do not know what he is putting in the battlewagons.
Since he got 2 squads of tankbustas and not Flashgitz, I would assume differently.
It would also make more sense of the auras.
Big assumption of local list.
And look, 2 full squads of Boyz with a few good characters to back them up.

Ohh, and this guys also brought 80 Boyz as well so the core of his army was still......Green Tide.

Also to be clear:
I think the Ork core army will always have 90 models (3X30) because it is the best troop model in the game.
What I do not agree with is that to go to 100% boyz in order to win is not a requirement.
Now I need to look back and see if some goal-post moving is going on, but let me say I would be terribly surprised to stare across the table and Orks with squads less than 30... it simply is not done.

#4 and #5 are the same list and the same person, don't know if the guy messed up or not, but ironically its the best Ork player at LVO who ran.....Green Tide, Just a modified version with Stormboyz instead of Boyz

Yep, Stormboyz and for those really impatient a wierdboy and "da jump".
You may have missed the Squiggoth...

And #6 is some weird concoction so YAY you have 1 result that isn't majority Green Tide or an offshoot of Green tide. Of course it placed 38th at BAO not 1st 2nd or 3rd and it went 3/2/1 So not exactly stellar. I have a feeling this list did so well because it was counter meta

I do agree that list is a bit... strange.

SO your reddit site has 1 list that isn't boyz spam and 1 list that used power levels not points. The others are Boyz spam or a variant. Let me know when someone wins a big tournament with Orks and doesn't use 80+ boyz, stormboyz or Kommandos.

Okay, here seems to be that goal-post thing I was talking about.
And again with the dismissing lists for what seem to be trumped up reasons or utter lack of understanding.
Yep 80-90 boys is about right.
We kept talking about the usefulness of other units which you dismiss.
You field 3 units of 30 at about 225 each you have spent a wopping 675pts... now what?
You seem to keep missing this point intentionally or otherwise.

Just spend MOAR on troops, maybe 6 units of them! 180 models at a nice even 1800 points.
Then you miss out on any real flexibility or dealing with objectives BUT you can be happy to have a giant meat shield that is death in CC.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

Looking at other lists than Ork, StormRavens are not the #1 threat out there and with the "boots on ground" rule coming up, it with make this level of spam a wee bit less.

A single stormraven can cripple a mob of boyz per turn and with gree tides there's nothing that orks can do to kill the flyer, not to mention that usually SM have lesser drops than orksWith and go first. 1-2 stormravens are also pretty much TAC so yeah, they are a huge threat at the moment. Guilliman is another popular option and he can give re-rolls to any to hit and to wound rolls for those damned flyers.

Okay, let me figure this one out:

Twin Assault Cannon: 12 shots, 3+ to hit (machine spirit), 3+ to wound (S6 vs T4), assume no saves.
So, 8 hits = 5-6 wounds, assuming no KFF or (giggle) cover.

Now typically there is the choice of HB or MM. Depends on how expensive we want to be. I will go with list tailoring for now...

Twin Heavy Bolter: 6 shots, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, assume no saves.
So 4 hits = 2-3 wounds.

I believe two missiles if I remember correctly: 2 shots, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no saves.
So about 1 hit = 1 wound.

So total dead orks is about 10 of them (being optimistic) going by a rough average there not assuming the evil Dante aura or Guiliman (if he can keep up) help.
So by "cripple" I think when a mob gets below 20 it becomes a critical thing so it is a near thing but I will give it to you (BTW assuming you field 30 at a time, if not, why?).

I will have to go back and see how many points the above Stormraven costs vs the mob of boyz, though a few people seem to like loading them up with rockets so that can vary things a bit.

You left out the Hurricane Bolters. That is 12 more shots, or 24 if at half range. But at max range in Girlymans aura you get results like this. 12 S6 -1 AP shots = 10-11 Hits. 9-10 wounds. 6 Heavy bolter shots = 5-6 hits, 4-5 wounds. Missiles = 2 hits likely 2 wounds likely no saves. 2 Hurricane bolters = 10-11 hits and 6-7 more wounds (with saves thats 5-6 unsaved). THat brings you to a minimum average of 20 dead boyz and a top end average of 23 Dead Boyz (Add on another 5-6 if in half range) More then enough to wipe the squad unless its near another untouched unit of boyz. If the top lists for Orkz are using 90-120 Boyz the enemy with 2 flyers has killed roughly 1/2 to 1/3rd of your troops in 1 round of shooting, they will also be beyond hurting unless you brought a plethora of Stormboyz...who realistically would have been targeted first by the stormravens unless the SM player is a dunce.

As to your other points, I am not moving the goal posts and nothing you have shown has proven anything I said wrong. Those units are useless EXCEPT as rear objective holders. If they were useful people would be taking them INSTEAD of green tide. Every competitive list barring the 1 weird one was based predominantly on Green tide. And you miss the point where you list the cost of 3 units of boyz. You also add in the weirdboyz, Warbosses, Painboyz and KFF Big Mekz because those units are there solely to buff the green tide most of the time. Not counting those units as part of the green tide is like saying conscripts are amazing and not counting the Commissar into the equation.

 Talizvar wrote:

Twin Assault Cannon: 12 shots, 3+ to hit (machine spirit), 3+ to wound (S6 vs T4), assume no saves.
So, 8 hits = 5-6 wounds, assuming no KFF or (giggle) cover.
Now typically there is the choice of HB or MM. Depends on how expensive we want to be. I will go with list tailoring for now...
Twin Heavy Bolter: 6 shots, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, assume no saves.
So 4 hits = 2-3 wounds.
I believe two missiles if I remember correctly: 2 shots, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no saves.
So about 1 hit = 1 wound.

So total dead orks is about 10 of them (being optimistic)

You forgot hurricane bolters. That's also around 7 dead boyz.

17 from an unbuffed stormraven. That's also enough to kill another 7 from LD. But realistically there should either be another mob or a warboss, so just an average of 2 more dead from warboss. A total of 19 dead boyz. 114 pts of dead orks don't sound like much but you got to keep in mind that SR has literally no limitations on it's targets. It can easilly move in a way that it wrecks the backlines denying the opponent scoring. And orks can do nothing to the SR at all. So, it's bound to pay off in 2-3 game turns. With it's superior mobility, you can pick on closest squads first. And what's interesting, dakkajets are considered good. 2 dakkajets that will cost 300 pts can only kill 48 pt of boyz per turn. That's 2.5 times worse than a SR. And they can't get any further buffs and are easier to kill...but it's better to just ignore them.

I'd take 3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons and stormbolters, guilliman and a stormraven in any TAC competitive SM list. Plus other stuff, if I want to tailor orks 2 more razorback and another flyer.

They will always go first against green tides and that's a lot of dead orks every turn. Even without tailoring.

180 boyz or stormboyz is the minimum in any competitive lists based on the green tide concept. And against this kind of shooty lists they don't even look that many.

Rokkits in orks boyz units suck, they cost +36 points and strip only a few wounds on average, you'll never kill a stormraven with those boyz.

 koooaei wrote:
You forgot hurricane bolters. That's also around 7 dead boyz.
17 from an unbuffed stormraven. That's also enough to kill another 7 from LD. But realistically there should either be another mob or a warboss, so just an average of 2 more dead from warboss. A total of 19 dead boyz. 114 pts of dead orks don't sound like much but you got to keep in mind that SR has literally no limitations on it's targets. It can easilly move in a way that it wrecks the backlines denying the opponent scoring. And orks can do nothing to the SR at all. So, it's bound to pay off in 2-3 game turns. With it's superior mobility, you can pick on closest squads first. And what's interesting, dakkajets are considered good. 2 dakkajets that will cost 300 pts can only kill 48 pt of boyz per turn. That's 2.5 times worse than a SR. And they can't get any further buffs and are easier to kill...but it's better to just ignore them.

Gah! I forgot about the hurricane bolters and did not see a single competitive list without them. Thanks for pointing that out.

I am unsure what to say about the Dakkajets but yeah, 2.5 times worse is impressive shooting (everything counts in large amounts, not just boyz).
I may have to see what some Mathhammer says about them shooting at a SR.

SemperMortis wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Question: Why wouldn't orks be going first? A full sized unit of boys is 180 points before upgrades. As far as a single unit goes, that's a fairly expensive single drop. Even if that's your entire army, it doesn't seem impossible for them to finish deploying first.

8th goes by drops, tournaments go by drops +1 for rolls.

So your average 2k list has 3-6 units of 30 Boyz, Ghaz, a painboy, a Big Mek with KFF, 1-4 Weirdboyz, Banner Nob and maybe some other crap like Stormboyz or a few units of kommandos. So you usually have 8+ drops. Conversely a SM can get away with 6 or 7 easily.

So since SM had fewer drops he technically gets to go first. in Tournaments you roll off to see who goes first but the person who has the fewest drops gets +1 to their roll.

But those 6-7 drops aren't competitive builds. Every decent 2000 point list I saw for SM has been razorback spam with flyers, which is usually at least 10 drops. Not to mention guard already laughs at orks, and have way more drops as well. Orks are rocking a pretty comparable price per drop compared to most armies, I suppose the need for hqs and elites to boost can cause a few more drops, so a little lower but not much.

Idk, it just seems that this isn't really benefitting orks that much. It might boost them slightly but not considerably

The main weakness of orks is they have mediocre HQs and elite characters, at least unique versions. Hardly any of them have boosted auras, and the baseline auras aren't great. KFF has the weird restriction carried over from previous editions, docs tools are tiny radius and only 6+ fnp, only the war boss has what I'd call a good aura and that's not even a real force multiplier.