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SemperMortis wrote:
You left out the Hurricane Bolters.

Yep, my bad.

But at max range in Girlymans aura you get results like this.

That is I assume you drop into hover or how do you manage to keep in range of the aura, Girlyman is not that fast, but also you need to be at least 24" of the enemy while doing that... kinda risky.
That is why Dante is used or you just pack in a devastator squads and Razorbacks

they will also be beyond hurting unless you brought a plethora of Stormboyz...who realistically would have been targeted first by the stormravens unless the SM player is a dunce.

Or hide in melee, or do they not get to drop onto the table some >9" away from the enemy or am I not remembering something correctly?

As to your other points, I am not moving the goal posts and nothing you have shown has proven anything I said wrong. Those units are useless EXCEPT as rear objective holders. If they were useful people would be taking them INSTEAD of green tide. Every competitive list barring the 1 weird one was based predominantly on Green tide. And you miss the point where you list the cost of 3 units of boyz. You also add in the weirdboyz, Warbosses, Painboyz and KFF Big Mekz because those units are there solely to buff the green tide most of the time. Not counting those units as part of the green tide is like saying conscripts are amazing and not counting the Commissar into the equation.

Yeah.
Sure, every last bit of the lists are Green Tide... sure... 90+ models still amounts to a hair less than 3/8 of a 2000 point army, yes, not including your supporting units.
Amazing how one must take into account the cost of supporting units.
Yeah, KFF manages to change the various math that glory-be Orks get some saves!
And if marines get their flyers aligned with the Girlyman (which is also a supporting unit), you would need the warboss to crack some heads to get some re-rolls if the mob saves are looking thin (even with nearby units within 6") due to the 20 odd deaths happening.
Yep conscripts would be nothing without that commissar with kill one guy and the morale issues all go away.
Kinda like orks and being all mobbed up.
Speaking of that, I need to look again at what the priest does for the conscript blobs as well... but that is off-topic.

Well fine, great, you have convinced me.
I am presently putting my other SR model together in your honor.
I can show pictures as evidence if needed.
It appears to be clear that Orks are pretty much useless from a competitive viewpoint if the opinions are to be believed.
So unless I am seeing exclusively a sea of orks across the table, anything else I can view as an even lesser threat / waste of points and I can be happy with that fact.

I always find it funny to argue for your limitations rather than a problem to be solved but being devil's advocate is fun and all but in the end, making Orks competitive is not my problem.
Ah well, the criticisms have been refreshing or should I say "bracing".

SilverAlien wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Question: Why wouldn't orks be going first? A full sized unit of boys is 180 points before upgrades. As far as a single unit goes, that's a fairly expensive single drop. Even if that's your entire army, it doesn't seem impossible for them to finish deploying first.

8th goes by drops, tournaments go by drops +1 for rolls.

So your average 2k list has 3-6 units of 30 Boyz, Ghaz, a painboy, a Big Mek with KFF, 1-4 Weirdboyz, Banner Nob and maybe some other crap like Stormboyz or a few units of kommandos. So you usually have 8+ drops. Conversely a SM can get away with 6 or 7 easily.

So since SM had fewer drops he technically gets to go first. in Tournaments you roll off to see who goes first but the person who has the fewest drops gets +1 to their roll.

But those 6-7 drops aren't competitive builds. Every decent 2000 point list I saw for SM has been razorback spam with flyers, which is usually at least 10 drops. Not to mention guard already laughs at orks, and have way more drops as well. Orks are rocking a pretty comparable price per drop compared to most armies, I suppose the need for hqs and elites to boost can cause a few more drops, so a little lower but not much.

Idk, it just seems that this isn't really benefitting orks that much. It might boost them slightly but not considerably

The main weakness of orks is they have mediocre HQs and elite characters, at least unique versions. Hardly any of them have boosted auras, and the baseline auras aren't great. KFF has the weird restriction carried over from previous editions, docs tools are tiny radius and only 6+ fnp, only the war boss has what I'd call a good aura and that's not even a real force multiplier.

Right but the SMs drop their units into the Transports they take and those only count as 1 drop. plopping all their characters into a single Razborback is technically 5-6 drops but only counts as 1. That is why Orkz don't get that +1 or in friendly games have to go last, you really can't cram 30 boyz into a vehicle, and we don't take transports because ours are at present, significantly over priced as to be worthless.

I do agree though that one of the major weaknesses of the Ork Index is the sheer mediocrity of the HQs and elite characters. What floored me was Ghaz's aura only giving +1 to attacks in CC. Girlyman gives TL to everything, Shred to everything, morale and a couple other tricks. Would it have been to much to get rerolls to wound or maybe more speed for orkz near ghaz?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:
(Stormboyz) Or hide in melee, or do they not get to drop onto the table some >9" away from the enemy or am I not remembering something correctly?

Unfortunately you are remembering incorrectly, they do not have a deep strike mechanism.

 Talizvar wrote:
Yeah.
Sure, every last bit of the lists are Green Tide... sure... 90+ models still amounts to a hair less than 3/8 of a 2000 point army, yes, not including your supporting units.
Amazing how one must take into account the cost of supporting units.
Yeah, KFF manages to change the various math that glory-be Orks get some saves!
And if marines get their flyers aligned with the Girlyman (which is also a supporting unit), you would need the warboss to crack some heads to get some re-rolls if the mob saves are looking thin (even with nearby units within 6") due to the 20 odd deaths happening.
Yep conscripts would be nothing without that commissar with kill one guy and the morale issues all go away.
Kinda like orks and being all mobbed up.

Of course you count supporting units, when I make my Stormraven/Asscan comparisons its always including girlyman because he drastically increases effeciency, now the difference is that girlyman will also be buffing anything else nearby as well, and since he is a gunline character they will all be next to him. In contrast to that, Ork characters generally wont be near rear objective grabbers because they will be roving forward to slay bodies. So when you calculate the Green Tide points you count the Warboss/Ghaz/KFF Big Mek/Weirdboyz/Painboyz and Banner Nobz, into their price because they are A PART OF the green tide. Most of my green tide lists have Ghaz, Mad Dok, KFF Big Mek at least 2 Weirdboyz and sometimes a Banner Nob. That amounts to another 400-600pts depending on which characters you take. So those 90-150 boyz just went from 540-900pts to 940-1,500pts. And of course in green tide its not just "Boyz" that are a part of the tide, Kommandos and Stormboyz are a part as well. So chuck on another couple hundred points for each of those units.

I appreciate you looking for solutions, and in the tactics thread ive been putting forward suggestions as well, but as it stands right now there are no competitive builds beyond green tide. The Squiggoth is a nice distraction unit but i think it did better then it should have because people were just surprised by the thing

The fact we have to have this debate means they're is probably something wrong... What baffled me is how deff gw is. Some kf the choices in the ork index baffles me! Even when they announced the ork index and what's good with it (in those blog posts) they didn't sound that exciting compared to other factions. I remember all the stuff they talked about were basically unchanged stuff from 7th ed or just general rule changes that affected everyone not just orks... I don't think gw wants to kill off orks but its obvious the people who wrote the index don't have a passion for orks or don't understand them as well as some of the people in this community. (I don't think I understand them as I play both marines and orks but there are some people here who just get it...)

 lolman1c wrote:
The fact we have to have this debate means they're is probably something wrong... What baffled me is how deff gw is. Some kf the choices in the ork index baffles me! Even when they announced the ork index and what's good with it (in those blog posts) they didn't sound that exciting compared to other factions. I remember all the stuff they talked about were basically unchanged stuff from 7th ed or just general rule changes that affected everyone not just orks... I don't think gw wants to kill off orks but its obvious the people who wrote the index don't have a passion for orks or don't understand them as well as some of the people in this community. (I don't think I understand them as I play both marines and orks but there are some people here who just get it...)

I still have a good laugh at that moron from FLG who was pumping up Orkz on their site. Apparently Killa Kanz and the Stompa are super competitive.

SemperMortis wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
The fact we have to have this debate means they're is probably something wrong... What baffled me is how deff gw is. Some kf the choices in the ork index baffles me! Even when they announced the ork index and what's good with it (in those blog posts) they didn't sound that exciting compared to other factions. I remember all the stuff they talked about were basically unchanged stuff from 7th ed or just general rule changes that affected everyone not just orks... I don't think gw wants to kill off orks but its obvious the people who wrote the index don't have a passion for orks or don't understand them as well as some of the people in this community. (I don't think I understand them as I play both marines and orks but there are some people here who just get it...)

I still have a good laugh at that moron from FLG who was pumping up Orkz on their site. Apparently Killa Kanz and the Stompa are super competitive.

Harlequins were meant to be overpowered too.

Their meta must have been very weird. Which I can imagine given they were testing everything.
They probably couldn't just go "right, I'm taking RG, Storm Ravens and maybe some razorbacks. Lets see if you can beat it with every faction" even if that's what the internet probably would have preferred them to do.

I don't think Orks even beyond Green Tide are quite as hopeless as the forum claims. Mainly because there are other objectives than pure damage and dice can be fickle. Just because the odds are stacked against you doesn't mean you always lose. But you are probably going to struggle over a tournament where consistently winning matches, preferably in a one sided fashion, is key to moving up the ranks.

SemperMortis wrote:
Right but the SMs drop their units into the Transports they take and those only count as 1 drop. plopping all their characters into a single Razborback is technically 5-6 drops but only counts as 1. That is why Orkz don't get that +1 or in friendly games have to go last, you really can't cram 30 boyz into a vehicle, and we don't take transports because ours are at present, significantly over priced as to be worthless.

I do agree though that one of the major weaknesses of the Ork Index is the sheer mediocrity of the HQs and elite characters. What floored me was Ghaz's aura only giving +1 to attacks in CC. Girlyman gives TL to everything, Shred to everything, morale and a couple other tricks. Would it have been to much to get rerolls to wound or maybe more speed for orkz near

As far as razorback+SM squad goes, a razorback with tllc and 5 tacticals is 180 points, the same cost as an unupgraded squad of boyz. With the assault cannon, it's actually 165 points. Yes both squads will likely be a bit pricier when upgrades are factored in, but will still be in the same ballpark. So the core isn't really that different in cost.

As for putting all the HQs+elites into a single transport, a trukk is like 10 points more than a razorback. If you aren't using biker or mega armor HQs you might as well do that. Actually, trukks can transport mega armor I just saw. So honestly might as well, with 12-6 seats you should have enough for any reasonably sized collection of characters.

SilverAlien wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Right but the SMs drop their units into the Transports they take and those only count as 1 drop. plopping all their characters into a single Razborback is technically 5-6 drops but only counts as 1. That is why Orkz don't get that +1 or in friendly games have to go last, you really can't cram 30 boyz into a vehicle, and we don't take transports because ours are at present, significantly over priced as to be worthless.

I do agree though that one of the major weaknesses of the Ork Index is the sheer mediocrity of the HQs and elite characters. What floored me was Ghaz's aura only giving +1 to attacks in CC. Girlyman gives TL to everything, Shred to everything, morale and a couple other tricks. Would it have been to much to get rerolls to wound or maybe more speed for orkz near

As far as razorback+SM squad goes, a razorback with tllc and 5 tacticals is 180 points, the same cost as an unupgraded squad of boyz. With the assault cannon, it's actually 165 points. Yes both squads will likely be a bit pricier when upgrades are factored in, but will still be in the same ballpark. So the core isn't really that different in cost.

As for putting all the HQs+elites into a single transport, a trukk is like 10 points more than a razorback. If you aren't using biker or mega armor HQs you might as well do that. Actually, trukks can transport mega armor I just saw. So honestly might as well, with 12-6 seats you should have enough for any reasonably sized collection of characters.

A razorback has a purpose after it drops off his load of characters or Devestator/scout marines, a Trukk has no purpose at all beyond helping with drops because there aren't any squads in the Ork Index worth putting in a Trukk this edition. Meganobz got more expensive and do less then last edition where people were getting the bully boyz upgrade. The only units I would ever consider putting in a trukk is maybe nobz an Tank Bustas but both are significantly less points effective then boyz, except vs T8.

That is why last edition you saw Ork armies with 4-6 Trukkz on the table at LVO and other tournaments and this edition you don't even see them in local tournaments.

I don't think Orks even beyond Green Tide are quite as hopeless as the forum claims. Mainly because there are other objectives than pure damage and dice can be fickle. Just because the odds are stacked against you doesn't mean you always lose. But you are probably going to struggle over a tournament where consistently winning matches, preferably in a one sided fashion, is key to moving up the ranks.

You realize you just contradicted yourself? you dont think they are hopeless but you then say that the odds are stacked against them. Yes there are other objectives besides killing, however killing is still the most important factor in the game. I play a tournament heavy META and the only units worth taking are the Green tide and maybe a Big Gun/Grot squad to hold a backfield objective and force my opponent to use one of his deep strikes against a 30pt squad. I am desperate at this point to play something besides Green Tide and still be as competitive. You have no idea how boring it is to play an army of 150-200 models that do the exact same thing over and over again. Last edition I was playing Kan Wall, Speed Freakz, Mek Lists, Boyz spam, Wagon Rush. Now none were as good as Green Tide this edition, but they were all the same competitively and it kept me entertained, even though I lost a lot because of how crap 7th was for orkz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh, and the last 8 reported Ork games are all losses....should we maybe rename this to "I am calling for an influx of Ork losses"?

Ork wins are not impossible but sometimes it does get annoying that you put so much effort into all these tactics and placing buffs in right place, barely making the random rolls... and all the other guy does is sit still and roll 2+ to hit lines and snipers that just end you without him even trying.

 lolman1c wrote:
Ork wins are not impossible but sometimes it does get annoying that you put so much effort into all these tactics and placing buffs in right place, barely making the random rolls... and all the other guy does is sit still and roll 2+ to hit lines and snipers that just end you without him even trying.

Of course, I would never claim they are "Impossible" I do pretty darn good at tournaments with my Ork Horde, the difference is that I have to make sure not to miss a single thing. My opponents usually lose to me because they either underestimate my faction and don't pay close attention or because they don't understand how to use strategy in a strategy game and instead rely on broken units to help them along. Think how bad Tau players had it when 8th dropped. They still do AMAZING at tournaments but the average person sucks now with tau because it no longer is an army of broken gunline units that can't die. Think about Eldar in 7th as well. There were no tactics involved in taking Scat bikes and wraithknights, it was just simply a choice of what enemy unit to delete first.

Orks on the other hand have to rely on every available facet of their crap index to win games. You have to out smart your opponent AND still be lucky in order to pull out a win.

SemperMortis wrote:
Orks on the other hand have to rely on every available facet of their crap index to win games. You have to out smart your opponent AND still be lucky in order to pull out a win.

I thought it was only one facet: Ork troops.
With of course the supporting units.
Not every available facet... only the green tide.
Keep within 6" and advance up the board.
Maybe fancy formations like a cloverleaf and the supporting units in the middle?
Considering we are not trying to do side assaults like old Fantasy Battle it seems like there is precious opportunity to "outsmart".

 Talizvar wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Orks on the other hand have to rely on every available facet of their crap index to win games. You have to out smart your opponent AND still be lucky in order to pull out a win.

I thought it was only one facet: Ork troops.
With of course the supporting units.
Not every available facet... only the green tide.
Keep within 6" and advance up the board.
Maybe fancy formations like a cloverleaf and the supporting units in the middle?
Considering we are not trying to do side assaults like old Fantasy Battle it seems like there is precious opportunity to "outsmart".

In a tournament setting where a horde army hardly ever gets past turn 3 there is a lot of strategy involved. I run Kommandos to augment my Boyz in the Green Tide, keeping them for late game objective grabbing or supporting an assault is fairly important, as is placement of the models themselves in regards to auras and ensuring successful assaults. Its always a good time when your opponent leaves something valuable exposed for you to destroy because he forgot about "Da Jump" or that you have 15 more kommandos to deploy late game. You also have to find a way to outsmart opponents in the regular movement/consolidate phases because if you want to keep vehicles tied up you have to keep them from retreating.

fe40k wrote:
Doesn't change the fact that they can't deal with armor, or flyers, in any capacity.

They have one good build - 120/150+ Boyz; all their other units are garbage.

Yes, there's a point to be made about potentially going first, but a rolloff with +1 on their side is still a huge obstacle - and then if the opponent goes first, none of their problems change.[/quote
What about Tankbustas? A whole unit with rokkits?, or deffdreads? Or meganobs with powerklaws? Orks have plenty of ways to deal with armor. Always have.

Orkz have nothing to deal with armor in a competitive META

in a friendly game, yeah bring tankbustas and Meganobz and Deff Dreadz, but if you go to an ITC event with those units you will lose.

 Talizvar wrote:

Not every available facet... only the green tide.
Keep within 6" and advance up the board.
Maybe fancy formations like a cloverleaf and the supporting units in the middle?
Considering we are not trying to do side assaults like old Fantasy Battle it seems like there is precious opportunity to "outsmart".

Yep, pretty much. But there is overall not too much room for strategy in a 40k game - especially with such a skew list as a footslogging mellee horde. There used to be more room for different maneuvres when terrain actually did something - but not now. The 'smartest' thing you can do is fool your opponent by persuading him you're going to commit your boyz to chopping him down but in reality all you want is just grab objectives and hold them as long as possible.

SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz have nothing to deal with armor in a competitive META

in a friendly game, yeah bring tankbustas and Meganobz and Deff Dreadz, but if you go to an ITC event with those units you will lose.

Odd, what's wrong with mek gunz with kustom mega blastas? They are actually about as effective as the equivalents I use in my armies (dunecrawler with neutron laser and lascannon predator) in power and durability per cost. I mean, they are random, but taken in bulk averages should even out. They aren't the best be all end all of anti tank, but they are certainly give your army something acceptable.

Honestly, the fact you can fit six in a single heavy support makes them a great complement for a battalion of boyz, won't be running out of heavy support slots like I do for my admech.

SilverAlien wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Orkz have nothing to deal with armor in a competitive META

in a friendly game, yeah bring tankbustas and Meganobz and Deff Dreadz, but if you go to an ITC event with those units you will lose.

Odd, what's wrong with mek gunz with kustom mega blastas? They are actually about as effective as the equivalents I use in my armies (dunecrawler with neutron laser and lascannon predator) in power and durability per cost. I mean, they are random, but taken in bulk averages should even out. They aren't the best be all end all of anti tank, but they are certainly give your army something acceptable.

Honestly, the fact you can fit six in a single heavy support makes them a great complement for a battalion of boyz, won't be running out of heavy support slots like I do for my admech.

KMK Mek Gunz are Range 36, Heavy D6, S8 -3 AP D3 Damage. On a roll to hit of 1 the weapon overheats and kills a gunner. Its T5 with 6wounds and a 5+ armor save. 6 of them is going to cost you just shy of 300pts, That gives you a mid range unit that ON AVERAGE fires 21 shots, for 10.5 hits (3.5 Dead gunners a turn) against a Vehicle those 10.5 hits turn into about 7 wounds, with -3 AP this means most vehicles will be getting a 6+ save unless they are in cover or they have the plethora of Invuln saves that are floating around for vehicles these days. Lets assume they have a 5+ save because that is about as likely, that means about 5 shots go through doing 10 damage on average.

So you are paying 300pts to kill a 100-250pt vehicle a turn that happens to be in range. While doing so you are leaving a JUICY target for a backfield Deep strike to annihilate because realistically, if anything gets into combat with that unit its gone. Now I don't rule them out as a viable unit for backfield support, but relying on them for anti-vehicle is ridiculous. NO mans land is 24inches, and you will never be deploying Mek Gunz on the edge of No mans land so realistically they are probably 3-6inches back trying to grab cover of some sort. So long as the enemy keeps his vehicles away from that 36in line they are safe and since our army relies on CC to do anything we have to advance, 9 times out of 10 they don't have to advance and will wait for us to get in range, and chaos/IOM out range us by 12+ inches on most of their anti-vehicle weapons. So yes, we don't have sufficient COMPETITIVE anti-vehicle support.

Except everything you said applies to the units I mentioned, besides the issues with range and mobility. In terms of firepower, durability, and need for screening units all are more or less in the same boat. Honestly the range issue isn't as bad as you make it sound either, most armies don't deploy the entirety of their tanks on the back edge of their deployment zone.

When people say stuff like "Why not buy 6 heavy mek gunz" and i'm like "I could hardly afford my Ork horde!!!" People need to remember it costs ork players a fortune in real life money! 30 orks are about the same use as a single pack of immortals but 3x the price!

SilverAlien wrote:
Except everything you said applies to the units I mentioned, besides the issues with range and mobility. In terms of firepower, durability, and need for screening units all are more or less in the same boat. Honestly the range issue isn't as bad as you make it sound either, most armies don't deploy the entirety of their tanks on the back edge of their deployment zone.

SemperMortis is trying to tell that while having an ok profile on paper, mek gunz are counter-intuitive to use in numbers for an ork horde. Simply because they don't synerginse too well. Mellee hordes (that are also quite slow to boot) are very restrictive on what you can take alongside the core of your army. Especially vs shooty or/and mobile opponents that can choose optimal targets easilly. You can't play around it when the game has allready started. As an ork player, you can't really kill whatever key targets your opponent has early on because there are no really good shooty options, so to build a competitive army you have to focus on mellee and incidentally, it's a slow mellee, so we're going in circles. The best and probably only solution is to not present your opponent with optimal targets to begin with. Getting a couple mek gunz to hide in the backfield is ok. Getting a bunch of them is not a good idea.

Going back on track, i do hope that an ork codex will fix our most glaring issues and make something other than a footslogging horde a viable army. Preferably mech orks (i have 15 meganobz an a bunch of trukks that have nothing to do on the table atm).

 koooaei wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Except everything you said applies to the units I mentioned, besides the issues with range and mobility. In terms of firepower, durability, and need for screening units all are more or less in the same boat. Honestly the range issue isn't as bad as you make it sound either, most armies don't deploy the entirety of their tanks on the back edge of their deployment zone.

SemperMortis is trying to tell that while having an ok profile on paper, mek gunz are counter-intuitive to use in numbers for an ork horde. Simply because they don't synerginse too well. Mellee hordes (that are also quite slow to boot) are very restrictive on what you can take alongside the core of your army. Especially vs shooty or/and mobile opponents that can choose optimal targets easilly. You can't play around it when the game has allready started. As an ork player, you can't really kill whatever key targets your opponent has early on because there are no really good shooty options, so to build a competitive army you have to focus on mellee and incidentally, it's a slow mellee, so we're going in circles. The best and probably only solution is to not present your opponent with optimal targets to begin with. Getting a couple mek gunz to hide in the backfield is ok. Getting a bunch of them is not a good idea.

Going back on track, i do hope that an ork codex will fix our most glaring issues and make something other than a footslogging horde a viable army. Preferably mech orks (i have 15 meganobz an a bunch of trukks that have nothing to do on the table atm).

Exactly. And the key take away is that most armies that are shooty aren't going to be moving to much if at all. They will be staying at max range and sniping enemy units from afar. Mek Gunz can't do that and the Ork army is going to be rapidly attempting to close with their opponent, which means those expensive gunz will be left unguarded and they will get destroyed, yielding a couple of kill points an line breaker to your opponent who might otherwise be thinking about using his deep strikers to head off the giant blob of boyz coming at him.

Last edition we had mek gunz and didn't use them to crack vehicles, they were better almost across the board as well. Last edition we relied on PKs and killsaws. This edition we rely on a fethload of attacks in CC>

Well, ork mellee is pretty good. Boyz can put out an absurd amount of s4 attacks per point. A blob will down a rhino in mellee in a couple phases if they get appropriate buffs like +1 for Ghaz, warpath or greentide. That's our main strenght. The weakness is that it's mellee. That comes from t4 6+ armored bodies with a 5+d6" move with close to no shooting and a lot of restrictions regarding how and where you can move. And no effective ways of dealing with flyers and t8 units because what's supposed to work vs them simply doesn't.

One important thing should be told. There's no lack of ork wins when it comes to a horde list. It's kinda counter-meta and it currently works pretty good with the general buffs footslogging mellee got in 8-th. There's a severe lack of wins with any other playstyle, however. And a lot of ork players don't really want to run a greentide list for various reasons. So, here's where bitterness is coming from. It's like saying a 7-th edition nid player that he should be happy with his army cause flyrant spam is super competitive - what else does he need?!

So i feel that this whole thread is missing the point. Hordes are allready good. Everything else is so bad, small general rule tweaks won't help.

SilverAlien wrote:
Except everything you said applies to the units I mentioned, besides the issues with range and mobility. In terms of firepower, durability, and need for screening units all are more or less in the same boat. Honestly the range issue isn't as bad as you make it sound either, most armies don't deploy the entirety of their tanks on the back edge of their deployment zone.

Most armies deploy their entirety of their tanks 48" or 72" away from what they shoot, which is boyz getting closer to them. In addition, KMKs are usually behind all those boyz mobs that need to cross the table ASAP, so they aren't close to the enemy's deployment zone either.

If you're a bit careful, you can freely use your predators, sould grinders, defilers, riptides, storm ravens and razorbacks without ever needing to get in range of the KMK batteries. Meanwhile, your predator annihilator or basilisks can simply sit wherever you deployed them and shoot all game without moving. Worst case they can drive away from nearby threats and continue shooting at -1.

 koooaei wrote:
Everything else is so bad, small general rule tweaks won't help.

Outside of former blast weapons, I don't see why simply readjusting the point costs of most units won't fix them.

 Jidmah wrote:

Outside of former blast weapons, I don't see why simply readjusting the point costs of most units won't fix them.

the thread is not about ork rule and point changes that are going to come with the codex but about general rule changes we've seen lately like going first and obsec for troops - all of which are great overall but not enough to make walker wall or trukk rush viable.

But you're the one that brought it up, so why whine that other people are responding?

 koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Outside of former blast weapons, I don't see why simply readjusting the point costs of most units won't fix them.

the thread is not about ork rule and point changes that are going to come with the codex but about general rule changes we've seen lately like going first and obsec for troops - all of which are great overall but not enough to make walker wall or trukk rush viable.

www.warhammer-community.com wrote:We’ve heard a little more about what we can look forward to in the upcoming Chapter Approved, and it sounds more and more exciting the more we hear.

We learned at NOVA tonight that the new book will feature, (amongst many other things)

- An expansion for Apocalypse games of Warhammer 40,000
- Guidelines on running a planetary invasion campaign
- Updated matched play points for dozens of units and weapons across every army
- Loads of new Missions for open, narrative and matched play.
- We are also bringing a whole new feature to Open Play. Designing and building your own vehicles is a feature that hasn’t appeared in Warhammer 40,000 since 5th Edition. We are going to trial some new rules to allow you to design your very own Land Raider variants and field these behemoths on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.

Finally Chapter Approved will also give Factions that have not yet received their codex some expanded rules while they wait, allowing these factions to make use of some of the cool new mechanics available in Warhammer 40,000.

Chapter Approved is looking like a must for any dedicated Warhammer 40,000 player.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/31/breaking-news-studio-preview-from-the-nova-open/

If KMKs became half price I might take them again otherwise they sit collecting dust.

The new rules might help or they might destroy what little hope we have of winning in a tournament, who knows?

I have had SEVERAL people in my META complain about how Boyz are OP because they are cheap, and I have heard similar complaints about our Weirdboyz, specifically when I use 30-40 boyz to super charge his abilities. I guess the negative (head explodes) isn't enough of a downside for some imperial players

So fingers crossed they make more then a handful of our units competitive and don't take away the few we have.

SemperMortis wrote:

I have had SEVERAL people in my META complain about how Boyz are OP because they are cheap, and I have heard similar complaints about our Weirdboyz, specifically when I use 30-40 boyz to super charge his abilities. I guess the negative (head explodes) isn't enough of a downside for some imperial players

There are some players in my meta that overrate the boyz because they only bring lists with tons of anti tank and a few anti infantries tools, so the green tide is something they can't really beat with their tactics that never changes. Of course all of them are imperium players

 Jidmah wrote:

www.warhammer-community.com wrote:We’ve heard a little more about what we can look forward to in the upcoming Chapter Approved, and it sounds more and more exciting the more we hear.

We learned at NOVA tonight that the new book will feature, (amongst many other things)

- An expansion for Apocalypse games of Warhammer 40,000
- Guidelines on running a planetary invasion campaign
- Updated matched play points for dozens of units and weapons across every army
- Loads of new Missions for open, narrative and matched play.
- We are also bringing a whole new feature to Open Play. Designing and building your own vehicles is a feature that hasn’t appeared in Warhammer 40,000 since 5th Edition. We are going to trial some new rules to allow you to design your very own Land Raider variants and field these behemoths on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.

Finally Chapter Approved will also give Factions that have not yet received their codex some expanded rules while they wait, allowing these factions to make use of some of the cool new mechanics available in Warhammer 40,000.

Chapter Approved is looking like a must for any dedicated Warhammer 40,000 player.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/31/breaking-news-studio-preview-from-the-nova-open/

Missed that bit. Let's see how it plays out.

so has this panned out yet or what? The ITC Tracker in the forum hasn't been updated in awhile but from what Ive seen it hasn't changed much if at all, hell its probably gone a bit south.

Haven't seen any evidence of such. Actually, all the Ork players have pretty much disappeared as of late, locally.