Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Music of the Apocalypse:

Each time a model in this unit is slain, it is driven to make one last attack before succumbing to its injuries. Do not remove the slain model yet – after the attacking unit has finished making all its attacks, the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade, even if the model’s unit is within 1" of the enemy. The slain model is then removed as a casualty as normal.

Q: If several Noise Marines are slain in the same attack, can they each use their Music of the Apocalypse ability to throw a grenade, or can only one of them do so?
A: Each of them can throw a grenade.

To me is making a single "shooting attack" means they may fire a single ranged weapon once. So a single grenade or pistol attack. Or if they fire their Sonic Blaster which is Assault 3 they get 3 shots. However, I seen at least one person say it means a single shot period. So, which is it?

 Sersi wrote:

Music of the Apocalypse:

Each time a model in this unit is slain, it is driven to make one last attack before succumbing to its injuries. Do not remove the slain model yet – after the attacking unit has finished making all its attacks, the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons, or throw a grenade, even if the model’s unit is within 1" of the enemy. The slain model is then removed as a casualty as normal.

As many attacks as the gun it has. If it has a Heavy Bolter, it fires it's heavy bolter and thus shoots 3 shots.

Yes, each of them can throw a grenade, either getting D6 for Frag or 1 for Krak.

Wait whats the question.

Sorry, about that just updated the title and original post.

A weapon gets a number of attacks based on its type. So an Assault 2 gun gets 2 attacks. Noise Marines' ability says "a shooting attack," which is singular.
But I think it's the model that is attacking, not the gun. So you should get both attacks (or however many the weapon has in total).

That's definitely up for debate though.

The shooting rules seem very clear that an attack is a single die roll. They literally never use "attack" to refer to the collection of attacks being made. Models "attack" in the shooting phase a number of times equal to the number of "attacks" listed on their weapons' profiles. That's it. MotA allows a single "attack". I don't understand the confusion.

 Sersi wrote:

To me is making a single "shooting attack" means they may fire a single ranged weapon once. So a single grenade or pistol attack. Or if they fire their Sonic Blaster which is Assault 3 they get 3 shots. However, I seen at least one person say it means a single shot period. So, which is it?

Anyone who says it's a single shot is either wilfully lying or simply doesn't understand the rules. If you fire an Assault 3 weapon, you get 3 shots. In fact, not firing 3 shots would be breaking the rules.

Dionysodorus wrote:
The shooting rules seem very clear that an attack is a single die roll. They literally never use "attack" to refer to the collection of attacks being made. Models "attack" in the shooting phase a number of times equal to the number of "attacks" listed on their weapons' profiles. That's it. MotA allows a single "attack". I don't understand the confusion.

"The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon’s profile, along with the weapon’s type."

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon’s profile, along with the weapon’s type."

Right...?

In the Shooting phase, models make multiple attacks based on what their weapon profiles allow. An attack is one roll. This is what I'm saying.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon’s profile, along with the weapon’s type."

Right...?

In the Shooting phase, models make multiple attacks based on what their weapon profiles allow. An attack is one roll. This is what I'm saying.

And that is wrong because for the game to make any sense at all, you need to use the rules for shooting when they make a MotA attack.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And that is wrong because for the game to make any sense at all, you need to use the rules for shooting when they make a MotA attack.

I mean, sure, you should use the shooting rules, except where MotA tells you to do something different. It tells you to make one attack. So do everything normally except only make one attack. This seems easy enough.

Ok, fine. You win. Congratulations.

"the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons"

Says A shooting attack not one shooting attack.

 Desubot wrote:
"the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons"

Says A shooting attack not one shooting attack.

I don't understand the distinction. "A" is a singular indefinite article. "A shooting attack" is clearly not "3 shooting attacks".

Perhaps you're taking the term make a shoting attack too literally.

There are abilities that say pile in and attack like the fight phase, by your logic since attack is a singular a unit effected by such an ability would only attack once.

wulfen have a similar ability when they are killed they get to attack, so do they only make 1 attack because attack is singular?

Even a specific example you brought up your, the primeris ancient specifically mentions when something dies near them they may make a "single" attack if it is the fight phase

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
"the slain model can make a shooting attack with one of its ranged weapons"

Says A shooting attack not one shooting attack.

I don't understand the distinction. "A" is a singular indefinite article. "A shooting attack" is clearly not "3 shooting attacks".

You dont make 3 shooting attacks for one model in the normal shooting phase ether.

IF it was a singlar shot then there would of been no need to also add in the "With One weapon"

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't understand the distinction. "A" is a singular indefinite article. "A shooting attack" is clearly not "3 shooting attacks".

Okay, I'm on board. So, when my units charge, you're okay with firing a single weapon once during Overwatch? After all, it says, "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack," (BRB, p. 182) and, as you've established, "a shooting attack" is clearly not however many shooting attacks the models in the unit have, so I guess it's one shot?

Except, of course, that in the example of play (BRB, p. 185), the Intercessors being charged by the Plague Marines not only each get to fire their weapons, they get to fire them two times each. Even though the rules clearly say "shooting attack," singular. Which is clearly not 4 shooting attacks. Weird.

"A shooting attack" consist of using the given profile of a weapon once. It fulfills the singular nature of the word and still generates multiple shots.

Here is a wrench in the argument that it is a literal one shot, how do you deal with weapons that do variable numbers of shots, that is "one dice", as some are arguing, that generates multiple shots.

Youngblood13 wrote:

Okay, I'm on board. So, when my units charge, you're okay with firing a single weapon once during Overwatch? After all, it says, "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack," (BRB, p. 182) and, as you've established, "a shooting attack" is clearly not however many shooting attacks the models in the unit have, so I guess it's one shot?

Except, of course, that in the example of play (BRB, p. 185), the Intercessors being charged by the Plague Marines not only each get to fire their weapons, they get to fire them two times each. Even though the rules clearly say "shooting attack," singular. Which is clearly not 4 shooting attacks. Weird.

That's pretty convincing. This is an example of the rules using "shooting attack" to clearly refer to the collection of all attacks made by a unit with their guns. So "a shooting attack" is not "an attack".

Youngblood13 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I don't understand the distinction. "A" is a singular indefinite article. "A shooting attack" is clearly not "3 shooting attacks".

Okay, I'm on board. So, when my units charge, you're okay with firing a single weapon once during Overwatch? After all, it says, "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack," (BRB, p. 182) and, as you've established, "a shooting attack" is clearly not however many shooting attacks the models in the unit have, so I guess it's one shot?

Except, of course, that in the example of play (BRB, p. 185), the Intercessors being charged by the Plague Marines not only each get to fire their weapons, they get to fire them two times each. Even though the rules clearly say "shooting attack," singular. Which is clearly not 4 shooting attacks. Weird.

I knew there were examples of as "shooting attack" meaning attacking with a weapons profile once. That's the thread then.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Youngblood13 wrote:

Okay, I'm on board. So, when my units charge, you're okay with firing a single weapon once during Overwatch? After all, it says, "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack," (BRB, p. 182) and, as you've established, "a shooting attack" is clearly not however many shooting attacks the models in the unit have, so I guess it's one shot?

Except, of course, that in the example of play (BRB, p. 185), the Intercessors being charged by the Plague Marines not only each get to fire their weapons, they get to fire them two times each. Even though the rules clearly say "shooting attack," singular. Which is clearly not 4 shooting attacks. Weird.

That's pretty convincing. This is an example of the rules using "shooting attack" to clearly refer to the collection of all attacks made by a unit with their guns. So "a shooting attack" is not "an attack".

To add onto the distinction, when an extra attack is called for, Games Workshop has confirmed that it means only a single extra hit roll. A shooting attack indeed seems different from an extra attack.

Q: If a Noise Marine is slain in the Fight phase, and he uses
his Music of the Apocalypse ability to shoot an Imperium
unit and subsequently rolls a 6+ to hit, does the Death to the
False Emperor ability then grant him an extra attack with that
weapon, even though it’s a ranged weapon?
A: Yes. In this situation, make an extra hit roll against
the target on a hit roll of 6+.

The whole threads existence does highlight something;
An argument over the single word of A... and it actually mattered how you define A... shows just how badly Game Workshop needs a Technical Editor.

JinxDragon wrote:
The whole threads existence does highlight something;
An argument over the single word of A... and it actually mattered how you define A... shows just how badly Game Workshop needs a Technical Editor.

Or that different people are different and have different way of interpreting different things causing different problems.

 Desubot wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
The whole threads existence does highlight something;
An argument over the single word of A... and it actually mattered how you define A... shows just how badly Game Workshop needs a Technical Editor.

Or that different people are different and have different way of interpreting different things causing different problems.

It's straight up sloppy technical writing. Other games have separate terms to demarcate the difference, often 'strike' (single roll) versus attack (the full compliment).

znelson wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
The whole threads existence does highlight something;
An argument over the single word of A... and it actually mattered how you define A... shows just how badly Game Workshop needs a Technical Editor.

Or that different people are different and have different way of interpreting different things causing different problems.

It's straight up sloppy technical writing. Other games have separate terms to demarcate the difference, often 'strike' (single roll) versus attack (the full compliment).

its funny because the SM Banner specifies the CC version as a single attack vs shooting which is as though it was the shooting phase.

Warhammer 40k has always needed a Technical Editor and a comprehensive Glossary... won't hold my breath on getting either though.

Take the strongest piece of evidence I use to show that 'a Shooting Attack' references the sequence and not a single Attack... the very sort of Banner you just flagged. It would make no sense for the Authors to create a Rule which specifically limits the attack to a single, if the attack was already limited to being a single attack. Not only are there handful of Rules that are specific to the number of Attacks, other Rules also happen to function oddly when you further expand on that logic as well but those are harder to explain in detail... lets just say Overwatch won't work at all as intended. All of this heavily informs us that the term 'a Shooting Attack' is actually referring to the sequence of the same name, and not a single occurrence of an attack that happens to be shooting.

So my question is thus:
Do you think a well written system would require us to research every Rule, just to make those round-about arguments in the first place?