Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, so the idea behind this list is the standard Necron 1st turn deletion drop. The idea being that all units are setup as much behind blocking terrain as possible.

Order of Play:

• Before the 1st turn assuming I go first having 8 units (all characters other than overlord and Vargard are in the Ghost Ark).
  
• The Necron Lychguard are standing next to the overlord for MWBD at the start of the turn.
  
• Deceiver relocates the Ghost Ark to 12.1" away from an enemy I want to obliterate from the field (or 2 if they have their warlord near). (If deceiver scores 2, he brings 20 warriors, if he scored 3, I bring 1 warriors and 1 Immortal)
  
• Characters disembark and move closer to the enemy I wish to charge (can get up to 1" away without an advance). Anrykyr moves to a non ++ character he wants to delete to be the closest unit.
  
• Anrakyr makes a vehicle shoot with a 75% chance (using CP)
  
• Vargard relocates with 10 Lychguard to 1" away from enemy.
  
• Ghost Ark, Warriors, Immortals and Characters all shoot into whatever group is within rapid fire range. Anrykr Time Arrows whatever he wants to kill a character/model. Deceiver shoots Antimatter Meteor for more mortals.
  
• Lychguard charge getting 20 WarScythe attacks at a 2+ to hit (17 hits), Wounding 12 times, and killing 12 models generally. Vargard kills 2 more.

This first round should on average, assuming marines, kill at least 2-3 full units + a warlord. That's minimum 2 VP first turn for most missions and might end the game effectively on turn 1. Thoughts? Could I improve the list?


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Necrons) [101 PL, 1997pts] ++
+ HQ +
Anrakyr the Traveller
Nemesor Zahndrekh
Vargard Obyron
Overlord : Resurrection Orb, Staff of Light

+ Troops +
Immortals : 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Necron Warriors : 20x Necron Warrior
Necron Warriors : 20x Necron Warrior

+ Elites +
C'Tan Shard of the Deceiver : Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault
Lychguard : 10x Lychguard, Warscythe

+ Dedicated Transport +
Ghost Ark

You can achieve a similar mechanic by using the Deceiver to move a monolith up and DS the lychguard through the eternity gate. That'll probably get you father than a ghost ark full of characters for the points.

Also, you can't disembark from a transport after it moves.

I'm a really big fan of aggressive assaulty lists, and have actually been toying with one for Necrons in battlescribe this morning, but TBPH I don't like the list as you've written it.

I like the thought process but as stated, vehicles cannot move and then disembark. Lets switch things up a bit here and see how you feel about the following:

1999 Points

Zahndrekh
Obyron

Immortals x9
Warriors x20
Warriors x13

C'Tan Deceiver
Flayed Ones x20
Lychguard x10

Nightscythe

8 total unit placements per NS rules.

Set up your Lychguard on homeworld for the Nightscythe to beam in (setting both of these up at the same time per how the rule is written means the 2 units count as 1), on the board is the C'Tan, Zahn, Obyron, troops, Nightscythe, and (this is dependent on how you wanna play it but) possibly the flayed ones next to Obyron. Before game starts you relocate (in order of priority) Zahn, the Nightscythe, and a warrior blob. Now that game starts (worst case) you move the C'Tan and Zahn (8 and 5 respectively), end of movement phase you use Ghostwalk Mantle to warp Obryon and 1 infantry unit (Flayed Ones if you fielded them, Warrior blob if you didnt), deep strike your flayed ones (if not on board already), and that puts Obyron 1' away plus his infantry he brought with, C'tan is 4 away, Zahn is 7 away (but who cares), and no one is focusing your nightscythe that just flew across the board to drop another ball next turn. (Warning, if you are concerned they will still be able to kill your flyer turn 1, change its priority seeing the Lychguard will be considered slain if it dies before they can port in).

But I think this list gives you what you already have in terms of idea and also follows the rules and flow.

Crons4Days wrote:
I like the thought process but as stated, vehicles cannot move and then disembark. Lets switch things up a bit here and see how you feel about the following:

1999 Points

Zahndrekh
Obyron

Immortals x10
Warriors x20
Warriors x13

C'Tan Deceiver
Flayed Ones x20
Lychguard x10

Nightscythe

8 total unit placements per NS rules.

Set up your Lychguard on homeworld for the Nightscythe to beam in (setting both of these up at the same time per how the rule is written means the 2 units count as 1), on the board is the C'Tan, Zahn, Obyron, troops, Nightscythe, and (this is dependent on how you wanna play it but) possibly the flayed ones next to Obyron. Before game starts you relocate (in order of priority) Zahn, the Nightscythe, and a warrior blob. Now that game starts (worst case) you move the C'Tan and Zahn (8 and 5 respectively), end of movement phase you use Ghostwalk Mantle to warp Obryon and 1 infantry unit (Flayed Ones if you fielded them, Warrior blob if you didnt), deep strike your flayed ones (if not on board already), and that puts Obyron 1' away plus his infantry he brought with, C'tan is 4 away, Zahn is 7 away (but who cares), and no one is focusing your nightscythe that just flew across the board to drop another ball next turn. (Warning, if you are concerned they will still be able to kill your flyer turn 1, change its priority seeing the Lychguard will be considered slain if it dies before they can port in).

But I think this list gives you what you already have in terms of idea and also follows the rules and flow.

This would be a major improvement, Why not use Oby w/ the Lychguard and field another CC specialist to teleport w/ the Scythe on T1? You'll get to move 2 units as long as you roll a 3+ and the roll occurs after the game has started so you can command point the roll if need be. This will give you the Lychguard, and another unit with guaranteed assault on T1 and a possible on the flayed ones making it after DS.

Have 20 flayed ones in DS reserve, Grand illusion zandrekh up the board, move him 6" away, then at the end of your turn, DS the flayed ones next to obryn, then GWM everything very close to zandrekh and the enemy. Get the charge and kill whatever you touch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But dont invest too much points into it, as you will lose most of it post charge, and its a significant points investment.If its the majority of your armies points, youll kill a couple of squads, and then your army will be crippled next turn.

znelson wrote:You can achieve a similar mechanic by using the Deceiver to move a monolith up and DS the lychguard through the eternity gate. That'll probably get you father than a ghost ark full of characters for the points."

You can, but you are much further away, but yes, it is true. You lose all the character benefits to the lychguard though... 2+ to hit, potential +1 A, etc.

znelson wrote:Also, you can't disembark from a transport after it moves.

True, forgot that

So they both hit on the same, 3+. Lych will wound on a 3+ normally, flayed ones can vary from 3-6+, but can reroll failed attacks.

10 lychguard have 20 attacks, so at most they can do 40 damage

20 flayed ones have 80 attacks, so at most they can do 80 damage.

I realise this is never going to happen but flayed ones threaten a wider variety of targets.

Consider the other option, what self respecting general is going to leave his big monsters/scary units with good saves out front ready to charge?

None, they will screen them all with hordes of chaff.

Lychguard are TERRIBLE at chewing through chaff, flayed ones excel at it. The amount of times you are going to have a high value target in the front lines that is the closest/easiest unit to charge is very, very small. So yes in theory lychguard can do more damage t1 on the charge if you get the highly unlikely situation, but 99/100 times the flayed ones will be doing more damage to more targets more often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
20 flayed ones should get 48 hits through, 10 lychguard should get 12 hits through.

FO vs LG

T3 40w v 17w
T4 36w v 7w
T5/6 24w v 7w
T7 24w v 6w
T8 14w v 2w

So flayed ones put alot more wounds on everything. But lychguard have an ap- which comes into effect in varying effectiveness. Best best is against 2+ saves with no invuln, but the majority of stuff has a 4++/5++ which reduces the effectiveness of the rend. Against a T5 2+ sv with no invuln FO get 4 wounds through, so 4 damage, while a lychguard gets 6 wounds through for 12 damage total, against a 4++ 3-8 damage through. So at best, lychguard are better in the chance you are swinging against a T5-7 multi wound, 2+ unit with no invuln save, otherwise they are only slightly better than FO, and in the large chance you are fighting anything other than that, FO pull ahead.

Funnily enough against T8(assuming 2+/4++) FO do equal damage

So lychguard are better in very specific situational areas, while FO overall are much better. Having a squad of 20 also means your more likely to get RP rolls, and if you MWBD the flayed ones by starting them on the board and then GWM them up, they become even better than the LG.

I created www.dice-hammer.com for this exact purpose, switch to melee mode, punch in the lychguard stat lines, add a new army, punch in the flayed ones stats, now flicker forth and back to see where they differ for a range of toughness and save combinations

torblind thank you

One note, is there a way to do a comparison screen? I know you can flip between armies, but a way to do side by side comparison?

So at a 300 point value for both units, the Lychguard are on par with flayed ones in wounds. Against things with really low toughness and armor saves the Flayed ones go up in value a lot, obviously capping out with 6+ T3 units. On the other hand... they are *terrible* against anything toughness 5, or space marines. LG are vastly better against 3+ save or T4+, FO's are better against 4+ but *only* if the toughness is 3 or 4.

Lychguard disintegrate vehicles and command squads, flayed ones bounce off of them ineffectively.

Now the big benefit is... Lychguard come back with two wounds on RP rolls, and are much, much harder to get rid of. Each LG that comes back is worth much more than each FO that comes back.

In fact, 14 FO's charging 10 LG get completely wiped out after doing only killing 4 models. That is giving the FO's the charge. Point for point against marines or better, LG are *vastly* superior to FO's. Now, for things weaker than marines, FO's are awesome, and really clean up weak things.

That said, I'm not looking to clean up the mook units, I'm planning to wipe out the command squad and the shielded units behind the front line by deploying behind them and dropping my units in right next to the command squad (deploy 3" from the disembark, move 5", bring in Vargard 6" away, charge with +1A, and +1 to hit). Assuming an average charge roll, I could move potentially 22" from the deploy point to get to that command squad to destroy them. Necron warriors or immortals (depending on units) mass firing into the chaffe should clear out entire squads of mooks without problem.

I'll be testing it tomorrow and will try both ways (ghost ark + LG vs FO).

Assuming marines, the LG/Warriors + command squad, should just about table a marine army in the first turn. I have to do the math regarding FO's but from dice-hammer, I expect about the same output against marines but useless against command squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, please don't take my arguing for the LG as my not appreciating all of your feedback guys, I just am trying to justify the LG pick as to why I went for them vs FO's.

I really want to figure out how to work the monolith into this somehow, because I have a soft spot for it (even if it is over priced for what it does currently).

Right now, I think this will be a great death star drop but I'm always open to optimizing.

Lastly, lets not forget how much Anrykr boosts the LG vs FO's... it's not a small boost, it's massive in comparison for wound output. +10 LG attacks is much better than +14/20 FO attacks.

The below are for a group of 20 FO's. Moving them to 14 to be equal in points makes the FO's a FAR less useful option.

valdier wrote:
torblind thank you

One note, is there a way to do a comparison screen? I know you can flip between armies, but a way to do side by side comparison?

I agree, it struck me as I posted. Flicker back and fort isn't really how you want to compare, there should be a graphic for that. I'm putting it on my list. (which also contains probability distributions and named unit lookups)

There is a ctrl+arrow key shortcut (if not on tablet, and the wrong element doesn't have focus), and it cycles so you can keep hitting the same arrow button.

I'll not derail this thread anymore about this.

Oh I totally agree that LG are great, and any model with multiple wounds and RA is great and should be taken. The reason I incorporated both is because the flayed ones, specifically because of the size of their unit, is easier to multi assault and keep things tied up. Also, since there are 20 of them, they possess the same amount of wounds that the LG have, making them difficult to kill (not as difficult as LG now, im just saying still difficult).

Neither LG or FO's have fly, so they are going to have to assault whatever is in front of them and cant move through units to get to something more effective to kill (like that command squad you want your LG on). However, seeing that you get to reroll wounds with the FO's (plus if they started on board getting benefit from MWBD), it is an easy sell to show how they will wipe out marines, do damage to / tie up vehicle lines (especially transports, because if the models inside a destroyed vehicle cannot be placed, they are slain).

Also, in the above calculations, does it factor in that flayed ones get to reroll all failed wounds, or does it only factor in the first swing?

Crons4Days wrote:
Oh I totally agree that LG are great, and any model with multiple wounds and RA is great and should be taken. The reason I incorporated both is because the flayed ones, specifically because of the size of their unit, is easier to multi assault and keep things tied up. Also, since there are 20 of them, they possess the same amount of wounds that the LG have, making them difficult to kill (not as difficult as LG now, im just saying still difficult).

Neither LG or FO's have fly, so they are going to have to assault whatever is in front of them and cant move through units to get to something more effective to kill (like that command squad you want your LG on). However, seeing that you get to reroll wounds with the FO's (plus if they started on board getting benefit from MWBD), it is an easy sell to show how they will wipe out marines, do damage to / tie up vehicle lines (especially transports, because if the models inside a destroyed vehicle cannot be placed, they are slain).

Also, in the above calculations, does it factor in that flayed ones get to reroll all failed wounds, or does it only factor in the first swing?

This Factors in re-rolling wounds and giving them +1 to hit and +1A from various benefits as well.

I really wish FO's were troop choices. Maybe I can work up a list that does 20 FO's and 10 Lychguard, then drop both in and destroy the world.

valdier wrote:
torblind thank you

One note, is there a way to do a comparison screen? I know you can flip between armies, but a way to do side by side comparison?

So at a 300 point value for both units, the Lychguard are on par with flayed ones in wounds. Against things with really low toughness and armor saves the Flayed ones go up in value a lot, obviously capping out with 6+ T3 units. On the other hand... they are *terrible* against anything toughness 5, or space marines. LG are vastly better against 3+ save or T4+, FO's are better against 4+ but *only* if the toughness is 3 or 4.

Lychguard disintegrate vehicles and command squads, flayed ones bounce off of them ineffectively.

Now the big benefit is... Lychguard come back with two wounds on RP rolls, and are much, much harder to get rid of. Each LG that comes back is worth much more than each FO that comes back.

In fact, 14 FO's charging 10 LG get completely wiped out after doing only killing 4 models. That is giving the FO's the charge. Point for point against marines or better, LG are *vastly* superior to FO's. Now, for things weaker than marines, FO's are awesome, and really clean up weak things.

That said, I'm not looking to clean up the mook units, I'm planning to wipe out the command squad and the shielded units behind the front line by deploying behind them and dropping my units in right next to the command squad (deploy 3" from the disembark, move 5", bring in Vargard 6" away, charge with +1A, and +1 to hit). Assuming an average charge roll, I could move potentially 22" from the deploy point to get to that command squad to destroy them. Necron warriors or immortals (depending on units) mass firing into the chaffe should clear out entire squads of mooks without problem.

I'll be testing it tomorrow and will try both ways (ghost ark + LG vs FO).

Assuming marines, the LG/Warriors + command squad, should just about table a marine army in the first turn. I have to do the math regarding FO's but from dice-hammer, I expect about the same output against marines but useless against command squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, please don't take my arguing for the LG as my not appreciating all of your feedback guys, I just am trying to justify the LG pick as to why I went for them vs FO's.

I really want to figure out how to work the monolith into this somehow, because I have a soft spot for it (even if it is over priced for what it does currently).

Right now, I think this will be a great death star drop but I'm always open to optimizing.

Lastly, lets not forget how much Anrykr boosts the LG vs FO's... it's not a small boost, it's massive in comparison for wound output. +10 LG attacks is much better than +14/20 FO attacks.

The below are for a group of 20 FO's. Moving them to 14 to be equal in points makes the FO's a FAR less useful option.

So the plan is to Grand Illusion the ghost ark 9" away from the high value targets, but not between the HVT and the chaff screens? So you're looking at dropping behind the lines at the opposite end of the board from your army, and fitting a ghost ark's footprint in that area?? then disembark 3" and move a couple inches so you can have your lych in front for the overwatch and then GWM them up? Or conversley dropping in front of the screens, and waiting 2-3 turns before your warriors arrive (as they are footslogging) to get into RF range. You can probably GI 1 warrior squad aswell, so maybe have a chance, but then your potentially blocking your charges from your main choppy force.

Look this will work, 100% will kill a HVT. What army are you facing? Because this list is entirely dependant on your opponents deployment, if he deploys correctly this list will fall flat on its face T1. This list is very, very good against armies that have lots of HVT that are all clumped together, but not screened by chaff. Tau have screens, Demons have screens, IG dont have any HVT and have ridiculous screens, Ork's done have any HVT while also having screens, Tyranids have screens (this will be okay against monster mash though). Probably work well against space marines, admech, and maybe aeldari (if you can catch them, but even so, you'll kill one thing, and never touch anything else for the rest of the game due to 5"M vs 10-14"). Do not ever bring this against knights

I think I just have a problem in general with lists like this. They need such a precise set of situations to happen to work that if any of them do not align you will be tabled within a couple of turns. Your dumping a hilarious amount of points (roughly 1400) into 12 warscythes. Do you realistically think 12 warscythes that move 5" a turn will be able to win you a game? What happens if they have 2 HVT on opposite ends of their deployment zone? If you lose your lychguard, how do you plan to grab objectives, or to kill anything? You have a single ghost ark, vehicles are the most durable units in our armies now, so dont expect that to keep you from getting tabled. Its not hard to kill immortals and warriors these days.

Remember having fewer drops is only a +1 to the roll of now, so there is even less chance of going first. Bring Toholk if you want a better chance of seizing.

If you know what your opponent is bringing this may work, but its a very niche list. Until necrons get a points decrease wombo combos like this just dont cut it. Too expensive. Dont get me wrong, its fun as hell, but GI 40 warriors into RF range is also very fun at a fraction of this points investment.

If you want to delete a HVT in one turn, bring a Gauss pylon...... anything this list can kill, the pylon can kill significantly easier. It's considerably cheaper, considerably tougher, and does ridiculous damage. Can threaten the whole board T1, and can continue to threaten every HVT on the board from the safety of being out of range of their guns.

I played against Blood Angels today with the following (roughly)

• Dante
  
• Mephiston
  
• Sanguinary Priest
  
• Sanguinary Guard
  
• Dev. Squad (10 Man)
  
• Dev. Squad (5 Man)
  
• Dev. Squad (5 Man)
  
• Rhino
  
  • Assault Squad (10 Man)
  
  
• Some other special character
  

This was *roughly* the list.

 Klowny wrote:

So the plan is to Grand Illusion the ghost ark 9" away from the high value targets, but not between the HVT and the chaff screens? So you're looking at dropping behind the lines at the opposite end of the board from your army, and fitting a ghost ark's footprint in that area?? then disembark 3" and move a couple inches so you can have your lych in front for the overwatch and then GWM them up? Or conversley dropping in front of the screens, and waiting 2-3 turns before your warriors arrive (as they are footslogging) to get into RF range. You can probably GI 1 warrior squad aswell, so maybe have a chance, but then your potentially blocking your charges from your main choppy force.

I was able to GI him into their deployment zone, although not specifically behind them. I brought the Ghost Ark and a squad of Warriors (due to him being marines, I chose them over Immortals).

I placed the necrons to the side of the Marines 12.1" away. The Ghost Ark was roughly the same distance (Maybe 12.5" away).

Start of the turn, I used MWBD on the LG for 2+ to hit (from the Overlord).

I disembarked the characters 3" which put them about 9 1/2" from the closest marines and about 14" from the bulk of the command squad (Dante wasn't right there he was about 22" away)

I then moved all characters 5" forward putting them about 4 1/2" from the marines and 9" from the command squad. I ran the command squad forward putting Zahndrekh 7" away, Anrakyr 4" away.

The shooting phase saw an entire Devastator Squad removed from the warriors due to 9 wounds (and failed morale later (at -10 due to C'tan) ). Dante took 2 mortal wounds from the Meteor, 1 more from Zandrech. Anrakyr put 5 wounds on the Predator with his arrow. Ghost Ark removed 5 more Devastators in another squad.

Anrakyr took over the predator and killed the priest as the first thing in shooting.

On the charge, the LG killed Mephiston and Dante flat out, and finished off the predator.

This was the end of the game basically. We finished but he was tabled turn 2 and I lost Anrakyr.

 Klowny wrote:

Look this will work, 100% will kill a HVT. What army are you facing? Because this list is entirely dependant on your opponents deployment, if he deploys correctly this list will fall flat on its face T1. This list is very, very good against armies that have lots of HVT that are all clumped together, but not screened by chaff. Tau have screens, Demons have screens, IG dont have any HVT and have ridiculous screens, Ork's done have any HVT while also having screens, Tyranids have screens (this will be okay against monster mash though). Probably work well against space marines, admech, and maybe aeldari (if you can catch them, but even so, you'll kill one thing, and never touch anything else for the rest of the game due to 5"M vs 10-14"). Do not ever bring this against knights

Mostly I play against marines and one ork player. Sometimes I face tyranid Gene Stealer swarms with Carnifexes. I'm lucky that we don't have anyone with a Knight army, but then again, Necron's pretty much lose to knights universally these days.

 Klowny wrote:

Remember having fewer drops is only a +1 to the roll of now, so there is even less chance of going first. Bring Toholk if you want a better chance of seizing.

Where was this changed? I didn't see an errata for that in any of the missions.

 Klowny wrote:
If you know what your opponent is bringing this may work, but its a very niche list. Until necrons get a points decrease wombo combos like this just dont cut it. Too expensive. Dont get me wrong, its fun as hell, but GI 40 warriors into RF range is also very fun at a fraction of this points investment.

I completely agree, it was totally a just for fun list, not meant for tourney winning

 Klowny wrote:
If you want to delete a HVT in one turn, bring a Gauss pylon...... anything this list can kill, the pylon can kill significantly easier. It's considerably cheaper, considerably tougher, and does ridiculous damage. Can threaten the whole board T1, and can continue to threaten every HVT on the board from the safety of being out of range of their guns.

No game store within 20 miles of me allows FW in any of their tournaments or leagues (nor does my local group), so I don't think going with a pylon is going to be something I rely on anytime soon. (Honestly FW is so unbalanced I doubt I would play against it myself).

Glad it worked As I said it would fare quite well against marines, as Necrons are elite killers, shooty version of harlequins. I don't see this working against orks, but yea it's very suited to chopping marines down to size

Necrons are an auto win against knights if we bring the pylon :p I know some tournaments disallow it but all major tournaments and (luckily) all near me allow FW, frankly the bulk of it is underpowered but the stuff that is strong is OP. It's official GW after all. All GW stores should allow FW. Odd if they don't. But if it's not allowed around you that's unfortunate, it really is a beauty.

The +1 isn't technically official yet, it is being released in the first chapter approved book coming out at the end of the year, but they've released the rules for that and ObSec for all armies to keep it fairer for everybody now, so it's something you'll have to adapt to sooner or later.

 Klowny wrote:
Glad it worked As I said it would fare quite well against marines, as Necrons are elite killers, shooty version of harlequins. I don't see this working against orks, but yea it's very suited to chopping marines down to size

Necrons are an auto win against knights if we bring the pylon :p I know some tournaments disallow it but all major tournaments and (luckily) all near me allow FW, frankly the bulk of it is underpowered but the stuff that is strong is OP. It's official GW after all. All GW stores should allow FW. Odd if they don't. But if it's not allowed around you that's unfortunate, it really is a beauty.

The +1 isn't technically official yet, it is being released in the first chapter approved book coming out at the end of the year, but they've released the rules for that and ObSec for all armies to keep it fairer for everybody now, so it's something you'll have to adapt to sooner or later.

I completely agree with you on Marines vs Orks, it would never work against swarm armies, even a little.

What is ObSec? Chapter Approved will be like the General's Handbook for 40k?

Objective secured, basically codex infantry now have it, so even if you have 200 models without objective secured on an objective, a single model with ObSec gets the objective. Current rules state its whichever army has more models within 3".

Yes chapter approved is the generals handbook, they have some previews for this stuff on the warhammer community site.