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There's some fluff that I just don't quite understand here, so please help me fill in the gaps.

Let's start off with what I know about the Space Sharks/Carcharodons Astra.
-They're a fleet based Chapter. They recruit through the 'Red Tithe' which allows them to take any non-Imperial employee to fill their ranks and work as slaves/serfs, and gain material through the 'Gray Tithe' to replenish their armor and weapons.
-They were exiled to roam the space beyond the stars, the void, stopping threats before they even come into the galaxy.
-Lead by Tyberos the Red Wake, they have white skin and black eyes (including sclera), and older Space Marines gain shark-like skin.
-They may be descendants of the Raven Guard or even the Night Lords (though sources lean towards Raven Guard).

And here's what I know about the Primaris.
-New kids on the block, made by Cawl through orders of Guilliman.
-Freshly deployed across the galaxy. Many chapters embrace them. Various warp shenanigans get them to the other side of the Maledictum.
-Cawl apparently made a lot of them, including whole chapters' worth, and had access to all sorts of geneseed and material otherwise forbidden.

Here's where I'm drawing up blanks.

1. From what I've read, it seems like Cawl baked up the Primaris on low-heat for something like 10k years and made like a hundred batches that were battle-ready as soon as Guilliman needed them.
1a. What I don't understand is how he could have made so many of them without the galaxy knowing about them?
1b. Did he just keep whole Chapters in the freezer until the right moment?
1c. If the Primaris were made for Chapters that already existed, then how did they fit in with their new battle-brothers?
1d. Even if they were made for specific Chapters, if they had no real experience and were made from fresh geneseed, would Primaris even have afflictions like the Blood Angels and Space Wolves have?

2. There are still dozens, if not hundreds of Chapters of Space Marines on the other side of the Maledictum, so how do the Primaris get to reinforce them if that big warp-wall blocks off so much travel and communication?

3. If Guilliman was going out and distributing the Primaris, would the Carcharodons Astra even have access to them? Meeting Guilliman, surely a discussion of their exile would take place, but being a void-based Chapter, I find it even beyond unlikely that the Carcharodons would ever find out about these new upgrades.

4. I heard that a regular Space Marine can be upgraded into a Primaris, is this true? Where does it describe this?

drbored wrote:

Here's where I'm drawing up blanks.

1. From what I've read, it seems like Cawl baked up the Primaris on low-heat for something like 10k years and made like a hundred batches that were battle-ready as soon as Guilliman needed them.
1a. What I don't understand is how he could have made so many of them without the galaxy knowing about them?

BEST GUESS: Let's just say he made 100,000 of them in one location. He built them on some kind of orbital station, or some underground lair, or something else with a lot of guns on it that makes it seem like a piss-poor place to go peeking in the windows. Also, he boarded up the windows. In a world where people can get their memories wiped- it's not that hard.

1b. Did he just keep whole Chapters in the freezer until the right moment?

BEST GUESS: It would seem that he did keep them in some kind of stasis. And if he was told by a Primarch "Don't open these guys until I tell you to", he'd probably listen. Not to mention, cracking them open might mean HERESY NO NO SHAME BAD NUKE HIM AND EVERYTHING HE LIKES FROM ORBIT unless he had someone like a Primarch standing there telling the rest of the toaster-molesters "Hey it's cool I told him he could do this".

1c. If the Primaris were made for Chapters that already existed, then how did they fit in with their new battle-brothers?

BEST GUESS: I would say that depends entirely on the Chapter. Some might treat them like... well, players with original Space Marines treat players who build a Primaris-only army. They might welcome them. They might treat them like rookies, or weird cousins. It could be anything.

1d. Even if they were made for specific Chapters, if they had no real experience and were made from fresh geneseed, would Primaris even have afflictions like the Blood Angels and Space Wolves have?

BEST GUESS: I'm thinking it might be less common to show the 'flaws', but they're still built from the same stock... so most likely.

2. There are still dozens, if not hundreds of Chapters of Space Marines on the other side of the Maledictum, so how do the Primaris get to reinforce them if that big warp-wall blocks off so much travel and communication?

BEST GUESS: That might be a challenge. Perhaps the ENTIRE chapter isn't there, and some Companies or detachments are out crusading about and get the group text message to pick up your new guys.

3. If Guilliman was going out and distributing the Primaris, would the Carcharodons Astra even have access to them? Meeting Guilliman, surely a discussion of their exile would take place, but being a void-based Chapter, I find it even beyond unlikely that the Carcharodons would ever find out about these new upgrades.

As big as this Chaos thing is, there's a chance they'd find out. As said before, I doubt they're ALL in one spot, they've probably got a few dudes out there. And I'm pretty sure they broadcasted "BIGGER MEANER AND TOUGHER MARINES FOR FREE TO EVERY LOYALIST CHAPTER" until it turned a million astropaths into sludge.

4. I heard that a regular Space Marine can be upgraded into a Primaris, is this true? Where does it describe this?

GW said it in some releases, I didn't remember seeing it in the Codex.


Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Remember that after the Badab War, they did take a tithe of Mantis Warriors neophytes (or whatever the trainees are). What if that tithe was a shipment of Primaris in stasis?

They also were under the jurisdiction of the inquisition when they showed up to subdue the Tyrant of Badab. The inquisition knows all. The inquisition would know that Rievers are basically everything that the Reavers of the outer darkness would want. So that means they know whats up and would heed the call.

As a Carcharodons player, it depends on what side of Gork's Grin (or is it Mork's?) the Carcharodons are on. I'm betting that my grey clad nightmares are on the side that can hear the light of the Emperor and will gladly take the upgrade. In these dark times, the Red Brethren know that to protect the Imperium, Everything is an option to do so. Even if it means going under the knife for even more ferocity once again.

Considering their potential origin (Terran born Raven Guard) and the relationship with Corax (pretty much shunned), I figure they would be pretty much the only sons of the Raven that would willingly embrace the primaris... once contact could be established with them.

drbored wrote:
Here's where I'm drawing up blanks.

1. From what I've read, it seems like Cawl baked up the Primaris on low-heat for something like 10k years and made like a hundred batches that were battle-ready as soon as Guilliman needed them.
1a. What I don't understand is how he could have made so many of them without the galaxy knowing about them?
1b. Did he just keep whole Chapters in the freezer until the right moment?
1c. If the Primaris were made for Chapters that already existed, then how did they fit in with their new battle-brothers?
1d. Even if they were made for specific Chapters, if they had no real experience and were made from fresh geneseed, would Primaris even have afflictions like the Blood Angels and Space Wolves have?

2. There are still dozens, if not hundreds of Chapters of Space Marines on the other side of the Maledictum, so how do the Primaris get to reinforce them if that big warp-wall blocks off so much travel and communication?

3. If Guilliman was going out and distributing the Primaris, would the Carcharodons Astra even have access to them? Meeting Guilliman, surely a discussion of their exile would take place, but being a void-based Chapter, I find it even beyond unlikely that the Carcharodons would ever find out about these new upgrades.

4. I heard that a regular Space Marine can be upgraded into a Primaris, is this true? Where does it describe this?

Most of my Answers have come from the Dark Imperium Novel.

1a. Answer from Dark Imperium Novel

1b. Another answer from Dark Imperium Novel

1c. Another answer from Dark Imperium Novel

1d. Another answer from Dark Imperium Novel

2. Ships can traverse the Rift it's just incredibly dangerous. In the Main Rulebook it is described that at the Fall of Baal that Guilliman rocked up through the Rift and brought the Unnumbered Sons with him, which we know as being greater than Legion strength, thus deploying them in Chapters to safe guard Baal the Northern Imperium.

3. It is entirely possible that the Carcharodons don't even know that Guilliman has woken up or that the Imperium is in peril. It's entirely possible that they have been destroyed when the Rift tore across the galaxy and Daemons spilled out of it. Either way I suspect that Guilliman would just nail down a Carcharodon Primaris Chapter in a important location or near to where the Carcharodon's where last sighted.

4. Answer from Dark Imperium Novel.

 King Pariah wrote:
I figure they would be pretty much the only sons of the Raven that would willingly embrace the primaris... once contact could be established with them.

And yet, Shrike has already embraced them...


And OP, the author of Red Tithe, Robbie MacNiven's view on the matter.

Oh sweet, thanks guys!!

Thank you RedBeast for your contribution from the Dark Imperium novel, those are fantastic insights!

And thank you Victor for linking that post by Robbie! I just read Red Tithe and had a lot of fun with it. I look forward to reading more about the Carcharodons through him!

This all makes a lot more sense to me now, so thank you all!

Happy to have helped. Yeah Red Tithe was a fun one, theres a new short story coming (or is already) out, and then he mentioned that book 2 was just sent in to the Publishers, should be out sometime next year.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
I figure they would be pretty much the only sons of the Raven that would willingly embrace the primaris... once contact could be established with them.

And yet, Shrike has already embraced them...

Not really a fan, feel that the Raven Guard especially would have been the most wary and reluctant given their history.

"Certain other contacts" will be teaching them to build their own? That sounds ominous. A minor rebellion against Rowboat perhaps?

 King Pariah wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
I figure they would be pretty much the only sons of the Raven that would willingly embrace the primaris... once contact could be established with them.

And yet, Shrike has already embraced them...

Not really a fan, feel that the Raven Guard especially would have been the most wary and reluctant given their history.

The likely hood of the current timeline chapter even being aware of the Raptor Program is incredibly slim, that doesnt seem like something they would have kept alot of information on considering Corax himself had them done away with. To the current Chapter, mentioning The Raptors probably only reminds them of their Successor Chapter.

Besides even if they were hesitant at first, the fact that they have a full blown WAAAGH! barreling down on them, combined with all the other stuff going on in the Imperium as a result of the Rift and they wouldn't turn down the numbers. Then in the years since they'd of lost all the waryness.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:
I figure they would be pretty much the only sons of the Raven that would willingly embrace the primaris... once contact could be established with them.

And yet, Shrike has already embraced them...

Not really a fan, feel that the Raven Guard especially would have been the most wary and reluctant given their history.

The likely hood of the current timeline chapter even being aware of the Raptor Program is incredibly slim, that doesnt seem like something they would have kept alot of information on considering Corax himself had them done away with. To the current Chapter, mentioning The Raptors probably only reminds them of their Successor Chapter.

Besides even if they were hesitant at first, the fact that they have a full blown WAAAGH! barreling down on them, combined with all the other stuff going on in the Imperium as a result of the Rift and they wouldn't turn down the numbers. Then in the years since they'd of lost all the waryness.

keep in mind the Primaris marines have been in active duty for a little over a century at this point and had 10 thousand years of testing, in addition they have the seal of approval of the last living Primarch