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Long story short - the Yvahra is probably the best unit in the game for removing models.

Just playing it makes you TFG though.

Forge World usually hits things like this with the nerfbat pretty hard in the next update.

Don't buy models because they're good - they won't always be good for long, especially from Forge World who go from amazing (Malcadors can take demolisher cannons, are Fast, and are superheavy tanks that can be squadroned in the heavy support slot) to completely awful (Malcadors lose demolisher cannons, lose fast, lose superheavy, and cannot be squadroned).

One of the most reliable things about Forge World is the models look cool and usually have great fluff. Beyond that... it's most a gamble as to whether or not it's good, and if it's too good they'll err on the side of nerfing it into the ground.

 Gamgee wrote:
For the last time that is commander spam. I and 95% of other Tau player don't want to rely on commander spam to win. They are easily over half the cost of the list in all the major ones that actually win.

It's boring, unfluffy, and unfun to play against, and in it's current iteration unfun to play since all you do is suicide drop them all down.

When it comes to actual Tau games without commander spam the results speak for themselves as its a slaughter out there with Tau being in bottom tier of factions currently. You can try and pretend against all the months and months of evidence, but every single time I debate this no one can disprove me. Going on 4 months now of basically everything I've said not being disproved but being proven. The only thing I was wrong about was commander spam being this good. Heck I even want commander spam tonned down along with other stuff (Guilliman for example is way too strong). You know what? I'm sick of repeating myself. Suffice to say I want the game balanced since before 8th dropped and I haven't seen any real attempts to do so yet in 8th. I think my past posts have spoken for themselves on the matter.

I hope i'm not offending you with this, but your attitude and stance regarding Tau is completely unfair.

Tau are one of the best armies in this edition. It doesn't matter if you have a crutch like commanders. Even with commanders you're in one of the best positions in this edition.

Every faction has a "must take" crutch, and most aren't nearly as good as Tau. My Grey Knights wouldn't be competitive without Stormravens. Ultramarines would be nothing without Guilliman. Dark Angels would be nothing without Azrael. (Have you seen fire raptor Azrael?).

You repeating that Tau aren't strong is simply not a credible argument, because it is factually untrue. You have good units. Being unwilling to use them doesn't make the faction bad.

0 Evidence... okay then. No math hammer. All the big tournament lists prove my point. Results on dakka show the Tau aren't doing great casually.

You got nothing. If you did you would have shown it. Ante up. No writing a big post with your anecdotal evidence isn't enough this time I'm sick of disproving those at this point. Heck even the math hammer proves you wrong. It's pretty clear you have a strong anti-Tau bias. I'm not even going to respond to math hammer since It's been done in like 10k topics at this point. Just go to the tactics area and you'll see.

Even Reece himself has admitted the Riptide is terrible and the Tau need balance in a front line gaming episode. Reece has also said they are looking into trying to fix spam (GW) and particularly Commander spam.

Tyranid Flyrant spam wasn't fun and didn't make the army balanced in 7th and you know it.

If I actually agree with Reece on this one you know your the last die hard contrarian where nothing I say will matter. So here is this funny picture instead.

I do agree that it's unfluffy for Tau to have Commander spam. (Riptide spam is even LESS fluffy, though.)

But pretty much EVERY competitive list is unfluffy. The G-Man or Azrael shouldn't be in 90% of fights with their chapters. They should barely be in 5%, if that.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Short answer: yes!

Medium answer: yes, it delivers what you pay for it.

Long answer: of course you should get one - ont only it works really well, it's the coolest-looking Riptide variant!
However, it will die. The enemy won't let it survive many turns after witnessing what it can do. However, do you know what? It works as a distraction carnifex way better than a Riptide, for a similar cost. It does double duty for almost a Knight in price (and nowhere as resistent).
Be sure to squeeze as much work from it as possible before it vanishes from the table by turn 2 or 3

Yeah that is roughly what I expected. It looks cool and it dishes out the hurt, but given its statline (mostly the same as a regular riptide) it can easily be killed with dedicated firepower just like anything else.

I do like the model, although I'd probably not buy one if I didn't expect it to kick ass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I do agree that it's unfluffy for Tau to have Commander spam. (Riptide spam is even LESS fluffy, though.)

But pretty much EVERY competitive list is unfluffy. The G-Man or Azrael shouldn't be in 90% of fights with their chapters. They should barely be in 5%, if that.

Sometimes it just feels egregious, you know? I kinda want GW to put a cap on the number of commanders you can use, while buffing/lowering points cost of some other models.

I'm with marmatag on this - Tau are a great army. Commanders are auto include. However, I think you can make a competitive list without them. Have you ever seen a tau horde list? I know I havn't - it looks pretty damn good on paper though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Short answer: yes!

Medium answer: yes, it delivers what you pay for it.

Long answer: of course you should get one - ont only it works really well, it's the coolest-looking Riptide variant!
However, it will die. The enemy won't let it survive many turns after witnessing what it can do. However, do you know what? It works as a distraction carnifex way better than a Riptide, for a similar cost. It does double duty for almost a Knight in price (and nowhere as resistent).
Be sure to squeeze as much work from it as possible before it vanishes from the table by turn 2 or 3

Yeah that is roughly what I expected. It looks cool and it dishes out the hurt, but given its statline (mostly the same as a regular riptide) it can easily be killed with dedicated firepower just like anything else.

I do like the model, although I'd probably not buy one if I didn't expect it to kick ass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I do agree that it's unfluffy for Tau to have Commander spam. (Riptide spam is even LESS fluffy, though.)

But pretty much EVERY competitive list is unfluffy. The G-Man or Azrael shouldn't be in 90% of fights with their chapters. They should barely be in 5%, if that.

Sometimes it just feels egregious, you know? I kinda want GW to put a cap on the number of commanders you can use, while buffing/lowering points cost of some other models.

I cap myself at 3 - (only got 3) but 3 feels like enough to me. I usually only use 2.

Xenomancers wrote:Long story short - the Yvahra is probably the best unit in the game for removing models.

Just playing it makes you TFG though.

One Y'vhara is TFG? I guess using one Knight is too, methinks.

JNAProductions wrote:I do agree that it's unfluffy for Tau to have Commander spam. (Riptide spam is even LESS fluffy, though.)

But pretty much EVERY competitive list is unfluffy. The G-Man or Azrael shouldn't be in 90% of fights with their chapters. They should barely be in 5%, if that.

People forget The Eight were a thing in 6th and 7th. Commander spam isn't that unfluffy - was only bad back then.

 Vector Strike wrote:

People forget The Eight were a thing in 6th and 7th. Commander spam isn't that unfluffy - was only bad back then.

Have you seen the weapon loadout on The Eight? Still pretty bad.

 Gamgee wrote:
0 Evidence... okay then. No math hammer. All the big tournament lists prove my point. Results on dakka show the Tau aren't doing great casually.

You got nothing. If you did you would have shown it. Ante up.

Check the global faction rankings, the top rated player in the world is Tau.

He was 4th in the BAO, and wasn't the only Tau in the top 20.

Just because Dakka Tau players lose a lot doesn't mean Tau are bad... Tau are great.

Your turn!

 Marmatag wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
0 Evidence... okay then. No math hammer. All the big tournament lists prove my point. Results on dakka show the Tau aren't doing great casually.

You got nothing. If you did you would have shown it. Ante up.

Check the global faction rankings, the top rated player in the world is Tau.

He was 4th in the BAO, and wasn't the only Tau in the top 20.

Just because Dakka Tau players lose a lot doesn't mean Tau are bad... Tau are great.

Your turn!

Tau are as good as Tyranids in 7th. Flyrant spam was a pretty damm powerfull list. I don't think anybody used that as an argument to say that "Tyranids are great!"

I don't play my Tau anymore in 8th. I have 2 Commanders+O'shova+Shadowsun but I'm not gonna buy 7 other Commanders just to have a chance of winning.
I even win some games because my list that I used since 7th have a small number of suits and many drones, tanks and firewarriors, but even then they just can't do nothing agans't any slighly strong army.

But I'll leave this conversation here. If for you a whole faction is great because they have a viable build that is basically spammin a single HQ over and over... then lets agree to disagree.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:Long story short - the Yvahra is probably the best unit in the game for removing models.

Just playing it makes you TFG though.

One Y'vhara is TFG? I guess using one Knight is too, methinks.

JNAProductions wrote:I do agree that it's unfluffy for Tau to have Commander spam. (Riptide spam is even LESS fluffy, though.)

But pretty much EVERY competitive list is unfluffy. The G-Man or Azrael shouldn't be in 90% of fights with their chapters. They should barely be in 5%, if that.

People forget The Eight were a thing in 6th and 7th. Commander spam isn't that unfluffy - was only bad back then.

A Yvarhra isn't a knight. Not even the same league.

 Galas wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
0 Evidence... okay then. No math hammer. All the big tournament lists prove my point. Results on dakka show the Tau aren't doing great casually.

You got nothing. If you did you would have shown it. Ante up.

Check the global faction rankings, the top rated player in the world is Tau.

He was 4th in the BAO, and wasn't the only Tau in the top 20.

Just because Dakka Tau players lose a lot doesn't mean Tau are bad... Tau are great.

Your turn!

Tau are as good as Tyranids in 7th. Flyrant spam was a pretty damm powerfull list. I don't think anybody used that as an argument to say that "Tyranids are great!"

I don't play my Tau anymore in 8th. I have 2 Commanders+O'shova+Shadowsun but I'm not gonna buy 7 other Commanders just to have a chance of winning.
I even win some games because my list that I used since 7th have a small number of suits and many drones, tanks and firewarriors, but even then they just can't do nothing agans't any slighly strong army.

But I'll leave this conversation here. If for you a whole faction is great because they have a viable build that is basically spammin a single HQ over and over... then lets agree to disagree.

You're assuming that all top Tau lists are identical, which they aren't.

And seriously it's not just commanders. It's drones, and other units supporting the commanders. You're oversimplifying the lists people are using because it has commanders

Me saying top players run Tau isn't an opinion, it's a fact. There's nothing to agree or disagree with in that statement.

You're assuming that all top Tau lists are identical, which they aren't.

And seriously it's not just commanders. It's drones, and other units supporting the commanders. You're oversimplifying the lists people are using because it has commanders

Me saying top players run Tau isn't an opinion, it's a fact. There's nothing to agree or disagree with in that statement.

Um, dude? I want to believe you but how about you actually back your statements up? Tau winning a tournament doesn't mean it's actually a great army. A singular result doesn't really prove anything. You need a lot more data to actually hint at a consistently powerful faction.

It would really help your case if you elaborated. Drones and y'vahra are good, and commanders, but what else? What, according to you,makes Tau THAT powerful?

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

You're assuming that all top Tau lists are identical, which they aren't.

And seriously it's not just commanders. It's drones, and other units supporting the commanders. You're oversimplifying the lists people are using because it has commanders

Me saying top players run Tau isn't an opinion, it's a fact. There's nothing to agree or disagree with in that statement.

Um, dude? I want to believe you but how about you actually back your statements up? Tau winning a tournament doesn't mean it's actually a great army. A singular result doesn't really prove anything. You need a lot more data to actually hint at a consistently powerful faction.

It would really help your case if you elaborated. Drones and y'vahra are good, and commanders, but what else? What, according to you,makes Tau THAT powerful?

Tau are *consistently* doing well in GTs, not just RTTs... if you have best coast pairings, you can even get their lists... i think it's $50/year.

Some Tau run Pathfinders in their lists. I mean how much variety do you need in a list? Drones, Pathfinders, Commanders, Crisis Suits, Y'varha. You don't see that many distinct units in a lot of competitive lists.

I gave you a tournament winning list in this thread, without the exact points...

 Xenomancers wrote:

A Yvarhra isn't a knight. Not even the same league.

Yep, it isn't. And it isn't TFG at all. 3+ may be, but not 1

Tau are *consistently* doing well in GTs, not just RTTs... if you have best coast pairings, you can even get their lists... i think it's $50/year.

Some Tau run Pathfinders in their lists. I mean how much variety do you need in a list? Drones, Pathfinders, Commanders, Crisis Suits, Y'varha. You don't see that many distinct units in a lot of competitive lists.

I gave you a tournament winning list in this thread, without the exact points...

Like I said, I want to believe you. You don't even have to give us winning lists. Just give us a simple enough description of what units/combinations are actually really good. Just something to make your case more than a simple assertion.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

Tau are *consistently* doing well in GTs, not just RTTs... if you have best coast pairings, you can even get their lists... i think it's $50/year.

Some Tau run Pathfinders in their lists. I mean how much variety do you need in a list? Drones, Pathfinders, Commanders, Crisis Suits, Y'varha. You don't see that many distinct units in a lot of competitive lists.

I gave you a tournament winning list in this thread, without the exact points...

Like I said, I want to believe you. You don't even have to give us winning lists. Just give us a simple enough description of what units/combinations are actually really good. Just something to make your case more than a simple assertion.

I see. I think i misunderstood what you were asking for.

One really nice thing about the Y'varha is that it's durable enough where it can start on the table without dying. 5++, or 4++ in melta range, and an 18" fly move, with nasty flamer overwatch means it's a safe to put on the table. Same with units of drones, and pathfinders. This allows you to have a significant deep strike footprint.

With high strength shooting *only*, you'll run into issues with MSU hordes. This is where gun drones and Crisis Suits come into play. They will annihilate lots of small units on volume of fire, but also volume of fire that actually has decent strength.

Additionally, crisis suits can be used to block off your commanders. It's a lot of ablative wounds, on top of the drones absorbing heavy shooting. With the Y'varha, it's deadly to charge that group. Consider this: Against a T4, 3++ model, the Y'varha when overcharged, *expects* to deal 7 wounds in overwatch at 12". Think about that. If you greater good when someone like Kaldor Draigo charges, you *expect* to kill him.

Finally, drones are good in volume of fire and also for taking wounds on behalf of your units. Your opponents have to shoot at the drones with some of their fire, because otherwise they can't hit the bigger targets. And with a 4+ save, it's not a given that they'll be eliminated by said small arms fire.

I really like the way Tau play in this edition, they're brutally strong in the right hands. Winning isn't a given, but if you know how to play them, you can beat literally any list.

I play this model in nearly every list in 8th. I love the look of it. It was absolutely amazing in 7th edition. In 8th edition 40k, it's better than ok but not great. Aside from the points hike it received, it was made a bit slower (no more 24 inch jump move), and more importantly, its flamer weapon lost its 'mini' torrent rule, reducing it to a standard 8 inches. That means attacking with that 3D6 flamer attack is going to be much more difficult than before. The other gun is generally much less useful because of degradation of the stats as you lose wounds. I might add that the 3D6 flamer attacks are no where as powerful as the old flamer template so there will be times where you use the Nova Reactor for the flamer and get 4-6 hits (average is 9) ,which makes it's damage output sometimes feel subpar. The flamer now has less AP as well. When it does connect with the flamer, there can be moments of awesome sauce but it is clearly no where near the levels of the previous 40k edition. If your opponent doesn't have strong long range shooting, it will feel very durable. If you are facing a lot of strong shooting at 30 plus inches, you may very well lose it before it gets to do any work. The bottom line is that it can be fun, but as far as being one of those overpowered units that Forgeworld famously lavishes us with...that is gone.