Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 d-usa wrote:


Which just sends the message to him that says "okay, just be a dick over there, and maybe not in a hospital".

He can be a dick where he will never interact with civilians ever again and still aid the department/community.

 d-usa wrote:
If that nurse would have left without given report to anybody else and just sat in a car for 30 minutes she would be fired, and the state would take her license away from her, and every patient would be able to sue her for neglect and abandonment of the patients in her care. As a nurse I can tell you that a nurse, and even more so an ICU nurse, would be in career ending trouble if she pulled a stunt like that.

And what the cop did was to force her to abandon her patient for 30 minutes. The staff having to cover her patients, and spending less time with their own patients because of it, don't know what is going on with her patients. What drips are running, what the rates are, what titrations she has done since she got there, what the baseline status of her patients are, what meds need to be given right now.

The nurse could be fired from her job, have her license terminated for abandonment, and be sued by the families of her patients for leaving; there is no reason why the cop that abused his power and forcibly removed her from her patients should keep his badge for something that would cost the nurse her license if she did it herself.

So no nurse has ever had to leave their post due to a family emergency and left the others to cover for her? Nothing in place for a shorthanded crew for the arduous duration of around 30 minutes? Does that truly bring a nursing department to its knees, like you imply? No wonder so many folks die due to medical malpractice in America.

No one was hurt. Remedial training, some form of departmental discipline for all parties involved, department wide policy review, legal recompense to aggrieved parties and move on.

 nels1031 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


Which just sends the message to him that says "okay, just be a dick over there, and maybe not in a hospital".

He can be a dick where he will never interact with civilians ever again and still aid the department/community.

 d-usa wrote:
If that nurse would have left without given report to anybody else and just sat in a car for 30 minutes she would be fired, and the state would take her license away from her, and every patient would be able to sue her for neglect and abandonment of the patients in her care. As a nurse I can tell you that a nurse, and even more so an ICU nurse, would be in career ending trouble if she pulled a stunt like that.

And what the cop did was to force her to abandon her patient for 30 minutes. The staff having to cover her patients, and spending less time with their own patients because of it, don't know what is going on with her patients. What drips are running, what the rates are, what titrations she has done since she got there, what the baseline status of her patients are, what meds need to be given right now.

The nurse could be fired from her job, have her license terminated for abandonment, and be sued by the families of her patients for leaving; there is no reason why the cop that abused his power and forcibly removed her from her patients should keep his badge for something that would cost the nurse her license if she did it herself.

So no nurse has ever had to leave their post due to a family emergency and left the others to cover for her? Nothing in place for a shorthanded crew for the arduous duration of around 30 minutes? Does that truly bring a nursing department to its knees, like you imply? No wonder so many folks die due to medical malpractice in America.

No one was hurt. Remedial training, some form of departmental discipline for all parties involved, department wide policy review, legal recompense to aggrieved parties and move on.

If an emergency happens and a nurse needs to leave immediately, they still have to give report to the person taking over for them. Otherwise it is abandonment. Abandonment can result in loss of license, fines, and prison time. Nurses do not get to run out of a building without giving report. Ever. For any reason.

Again, did you miss the part of the video where she was yelling "You are hurting me!"?

 curran12 wrote:
Are you serious? So no long-term ramifications for a knowingly wrongful and illegal arrest?

The retraining, department wide policy review and transfers of wrong parties are pretty long term and ideally prevents a future occurrence like this from happening. .

 curran12 wrote:
No small wonder police feel they can get away with anything.

So every policeman feels they can break the law with no reprecussions? Really?

If I leave, for any reason, without giving report, I can be fired, sued, and have my license taken from me.

Patients always come before family, that is one of the things you have to accept if you want to become a nurse. They come first ethically and legally, and abandonment is abandonment.

I didn't see the cop handcuffing her and letting her give report to the staff covering her to ensure continuity of care for these patients.

He should be fired for making her do something she would be fired for.

 d-usa wrote:
If I leave, for any reason, without giving report, I can be fired, sued, and have my license taken from me.

Patients always come before family, that is one of the things you have to accept if you want to become a nurse. They come first ethically and legally, and abandonment is abandonment.

I didn't see the cop handcuffing her and letting her give report to the staff covering her to ensure continuity of care for these patients.

He should be fired for making her do something she would be fired for.

Well, from here, we agree to disagree.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Again, did you miss the part of the video where she was yelling "You are hurting me!"?

What injuries did she suffer?

Everything I read said she returned to her job after the incident. If I'm wrong or ignorant of further developments, fill me in. I got no poblem take an L.

Nurses leave the profession because the duty they have for the patients comes before family, you can disagree about it and pretend we are exaggerating here. I know people who quit after the shift because of situations where they needed to go home but couldn't because they would be in legal trouble for abandonment. It's a very real issue.

http://www.nursing.ok.gov/prac-aband.pdf

 nels1031 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
If I leave, for any reason, without giving report, I can be fired, sued, and have my license taken from me.

Patients always come before family, that is one of the things you have to accept if you want to become a nurse. They come first ethically and legally, and abandonment is abandonment.

I didn't see the cop handcuffing her and letting her give report to the staff covering her to ensure continuity of care for these patients.

He should be fired for making her do something she would be fired for.

Well, from here, we agree to disagree.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Again, did you miss the part of the video where she was yelling "You are hurting me!"?

What injuries did she suffer?

Everything I read said she returned to her job after the incident.

No, there is no agree to disagree here. That is a way out for people who have been proven wrong. She could have lost her job and faced serious consequences because of this man intentionally breaking the law. (He was a Paramedic and a trained Phlebotomist for the police department, please do not try and tell me that he did not know the law)

So if you return to your job you have not been injured?
If I pull a muscle, I can still work. Must not be injured.
If I break a finger, I can still work. Must not be injured.
If I am covered in bruises and scrapes from being assaulted and forcefully arrested illegally and against my wishes, I can still work. Must not be injured.

 d-usa wrote:
It's a very real issue.

And unless she was fired, its irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

So if you return to your job you have not been injured?
If I pull a muscle, I can still work. Must not be injured.
If I break a finger, I can still work. Must not be injured.
If I am covered in bruises and scrapes from being assaulted and forcefully arrested illegally and against my wishes, I can still work. Must not be injured.

Hypothetical injuries don't count.

 nels1031 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
It's a very real issue.

And unless she was fired, its irrelevant.

Again, no. It is not irrelevant. Just because something didn't happen while she was being arrested, such as one of her patients going in to cardiac arrest, doesn't mean that it is not an issue. If a patient had gone in to cardiac arrest and she was sitting in that police car handcuffed and had not given report(A nurse would have to come off the floor, out to the car, leaving their patients on the floor without a nurse covering, putting a second nurse at risk) she is still the patients primary care provider. Nothing here changes that.

Here is a quote from earlier in the thread that applies:

Dreadwinter wrote:What the feth are you talking about? You are wrong. 100% wrong.

Own it. Move on.

 nels1031 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


Which just sends the message to him that says "okay, just be a dick over there, and maybe not in a hospital".

He can be a dick where he will never interact with civilians ever again and still aid the department/community.

You know what? He sounds like he's helped the community enough. In fact, for a man of such impeccable class and character, I say they graciously allow him to take back from the community for a while, preferably at the end of the soup kitchen line.

Just to be clear, folks:

I'm not trying to antagonize and be confrontational. We all agree that some sort of punishment should be meted out, its on the severity of the punishment where we disconnect. I'm right there with you all disgusted by this encounter.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Again, no. It is not irrelevant. Just because something didn't happen while she was being arrested, such as one of her patients going in to cardiac arrest, doesn't mean that it is not an issue. If a patient had gone in to cardiac arrest and she was sitting in that police car handcuffed and had not given report(A nurse would have to come off the floor, out to the car, leaving their patients on the floor without a nurse covering, putting a second nurse at risk) she is still the patients primary care provider. Nothing here changes that.

Again, hypothetical. It adds nothing. Stick to the facts.

Fact: a nurse that leaves without report to sit in a car for 30 minutes is subject to termination, loss of licensure, civil liability for neglect, and criminal liability for any damages that occur.

Fact: a nurse was forced to leave without report to sit in a car for 30 minutes by a police officer who had no legal authority to arrest her.

Fact: No one lost a job, as yet.

Would a hospital really fire a nurse for being dragged out of a hospital in handcuffs during an illegal arrest? Any examples?

edit: Offline for a bit, Narcos season 3! Don't expect timely responses from here on out, my dudes.

 nels1031 wrote:
Just to be clear, folks:

I'm not trying to antagonize and be confrontational. We all agree that some sort of punishment should be meted out, its on the severity of the punishment where we disconnect. I'm right there with you all disgusted by this encounter.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Again, no. It is not irrelevant. Just because something didn't happen while she was being arrested, such as one of her patients going in to cardiac arrest, doesn't mean that it is not an issue. If a patient had gone in to cardiac arrest and she was sitting in that police car handcuffed and had not given report(A nurse would have to come off the floor, out to the car, leaving their patients on the floor without a nurse covering, putting a second nurse at risk) she is still the patients primary care provider. Nothing here changes that.

Again, hypothetical. It adds nothing. Stick to the facts.

It would be great if the law saw it that way. "Well, nobody was injured here, I guess it was alright for you to abandon your patients for 30 minutes! Keep up the good work!"

You are completely missing the point here. At this point, I can only believe that you are doing this intentionally, because I don't think we can explain it to you any clearer. This law is built on hypothetical situations.

 nels1031 wrote:
Fact: No one lost a job, as yet.

The Officer lost his job as a Paramedic, because of his threats to unethically take certain people to said hospital. Stick to the facts.

The fact that nobody was grievously physically injured is irrelevant. A police command level officer ordered another cop to do something they knew was illegal and employed physical violence (yes, illegally restraining someone is assault and battery) to do so.

 nels1031 wrote:


Would a hospital really fire a nurse for being dragged out of a hospital in handcuffs during an illegal arrest? Any examples?

Yes, a hospital would really fire a Nurse for being dragged out of a hospital in handcuffs during an illegal arrest if the state took her license away for abandonment. Because you cant have an unlicensed Nurse on staff.

 nels1031 wrote:
Fact: No one lost a job, as yet.

Would a hospital really fire a nurse for being dragged out of a hospital in handcuffs during an illegal arrest? Any examples?

Nobody argued that a nurse should be fired for being dragged out of the hospital in handcuffs during an illegal arrest.

But if an ICU nurse just left her patients for 30 minutes without giving report and sat in her car, she would be fired and the hospital would report her to her board of nursing for disciplinary actions against her license.

And if that's the punishment she would serve for abandoning her duty and placing her patients at risk if she did it willingly, then that is the punishment he should face for forcing her to abandon her patients and putting them at risk.

If you are sitting in a hospital, next to your sick family member in an ICU, and watch your nurse being dragged away while she is keeping your family member alive, would you still be posting here going "no big deal, I'm sure these vents and drips are just fine for 30 minutes, no harm done here"?

 nels1031 wrote:
Fact: No one lost a job, as yet.

Would a hospital really fire a nurse for being dragged out of a hospital in handcuffs during an illegal arrest? Any examples?

It's not that she actually got fired that was the problem I necessarily see with the situation, because she hasn't. The problem here isn't that she was forced to do something she would get terminated for. The problem is that these rules exist for a reason. To reiterate, no one is saying, "Oh noes she might get fired and maybe lose her license." At least, not yet. What I see that people are trying to say is that "this is something so egregious, so despicable, so endangering to the wellbeing of many lives, that were she to have acted of her own free will, all of these repercussions would have been a very real possibility. If she were to lose her job for following this course of action, then the police officer (who knows better) and his superior (who issued the order) who illegally forced her to do so should suffer the consequences instead. That such people are clearly so irresponsible, dangerous, and showing of such poor judgement and yet still not gak canned creates a feeling of disquiet about the entire police force."

 nels1031 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
It's a very real issue.

And unless she was fired, its irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

So if you return to your job you have not been injured?
If I pull a muscle, I can still work. Must not be injured.
If I break a finger, I can still work. Must not be injured.
If I am covered in bruises and scrapes from being assaulted and forcefully arrested illegally and against my wishes, I can still work. Must not be injured.

Hypothetical injuries don't count.

A civil court will disagree. That sounds is why the city will be very eager to settle and the mayor was groveling.

 d-usa wrote:
If I leave, for any reason, without giving report, I can be fired, sued, and have my license taken from me.

Patients always come before family, that is one of the things you have to accept if you want to become a nurse. They come first ethically and legally, and abandonment is abandonment.

I didn't see the cop handcuffing her and letting her give report to the staff covering her to ensure continuity of care for these patients.

He should be fired for making her do something she would be fired for.

As ya'll may be aware, d-usa and I don't usually agree eye-to-eye...

But, he's absolutely correct on this.

There's a defined transition when shift change occurs, and even when caregivers/providers has to hand off care to another.

This is done to absolutely ensure that patient safety is paramount, and all practicing institution does this.

 d-usa wrote:

 nels1031 wrote:
Fact: No one lost a job, as yet.

Would a hospital really fire a nurse for being dragged out of a hospital in handcuffs during an illegal arrest? Any examples?

Nobody argued that a nurse should be fired for being dragged out of the hospital in handcuffs during an illegal arrest.

But if an ICU nurse just left her patients for 30 minutes without giving report and sat in her car, she would be fired and the hospital would report her to her board of nursing for disciplinary actions against her license.

And if that's the punishment she would serve for abandoning her duty and placing her patients at risk if she did it willingly, then that is the punishment he should face for forcing her to abandon her patients and putting them at risk.

If you are sitting in a hospital, next to your sick family member in an ICU, and watch your nurse being dragged away while she is keeping your family member alive, would you still be posting here going "no big deal, I'm sure these vents and drips are just fine for 30 minutes, no harm done here"?

My wife has been a nurse for over a dozen years and she can't even leave her floor to go on her lunch break without first giving report to whichever coworker will be covering her patients while she's eating. She can't just leave when her 12 hour shift is over either she has to wait until her relief shows up and takes report. If inclement weather or a family emergency or illness makes her relief late or call out and be substituted she has to keep working however long it takes for her relief to show up. If we had a family emergency my wife couldn't just leave work she would have to tell her supervisor get coverage sorted out and give report to nurse or nurses that would be taking her patients. That's the job, that's what is required, not following that policy will get her fired and her license revoked. I don't know exactly what kind of violation of that policy would get my wife fired on the spot but I know she'd never test it. There's been days when she won't get to go on lunch break or will take it hours later than she's dependent on giving report to her coverage and needing coverage to be available to leave the floor. No nurse can just leave the floor and their patients whenever they want for any length of time. My wife has had coworkers get fired for taking to many breaks or taking too long at lunch and straining the coverage of the other nurses so having a nurse suddenly and forcibly removed from the middle of her shift because a cop throws an illegal tantrum over not getting his way is a legitimate concern and a big deal.

'Tis why now, you'll only have facilities managment/security deal with the police, rather than the actual clinicians.

 whembly wrote:
'Tis why now, you'll only have facilities managment/security deal with the police, rather than the actual clinicians.

Yeah nurses can't take 5 minutes to get a cup of coffee without informing another nurse and ensuring there's coverage they really don't need to get caught up explaining policy and laws in triplicate to stubborn cops on a power trip.

For my last year at the hospital I had a desk job. I did case management for the emergency room to cover the hours outside of the regular 9-5 Monday to Friday hours that our regular case management department was there. I was the only person in my department that was there during those hours, and during that time I had absolutely zero patient care, absolutely zero clinical responsibility, and really nobody in charge of me or supervising me.

The hardest thing for me to get used to was the fact that I could just go and do stuff. I had my pager and department cell phone and was always able to be reached, but if I wanted to run to the convenience store to get a snack I could just run to the store and get a snack. If I wanted to pick up dinner I could just leave and pick up dinner. If I wanted to take my lunch and eat dinner somewhere, I could just go and eat dinner somewhere.

For the first three months I felt like I just had to tell our House Supervisor that I was leaving. There was no patient she had to cover for me, no responsibilities that needed to be handled, if the ER had a question for me they could call me on my department cell phone that was in my pocket. If I needed to look up some InterQual information it was on my licensed InterQual app on my cellphone. There was nothing the House would be doing for me while I was gone, and I didn't really report to the House anyway.

But the basic clinical nursing fact of "you cannot leave for any reason unless someone has gotten a face-to-face report and officially assumed responsibility for your assignment or else you are in a world of hurt" was so deeply ingrained that it physically felt wrong to leave without telling somebody that I was leaving.

We're going off on a tangent with the nurse abandonment thing.

A disagreement between myself and a number of other posters is occurring because they believe the officer(s) should be fired. I disagree. That is the fundamental disagreement.

I don't care about the reason why you want him fired. Potential Abandonment of patients, unprofessional conduct, gakky haircut, annoying voice, a Patriots fan could all be reasons you want him fired. Regardless of your reasoning, I disagree that he should be fired. Thats all.

The departments policy for blood draw wasn't updated to reflect recent Supreme Court rulings(until after this event). Its safe to assume he was trained to not need a warrant for blood draw, as well as his superior, who gave the order for detaininment, of what he beleived to be a belligerent party while his officer was going about his duty. He was wrong, no argument there.

[MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] these guys is a bit harsh when the negligence of the department policy writers/administrators failed them so thoroughly by not bringing the department's policy's and training up to date with recent legal developments.

The state will certainly face a lawsuit at this point, from the nurse. Fire one or all the officers (unlikely), I guarantee the state will face 1-3 solid unlawful termination lawsuits, costing the taxpayers more money on top of whats paid out to the nurse. Transfer/reassign all involved officers, give them the opportunity to learn from it. Watch them like hawks and if they can't learn from it and they gak the bed again, you now have a legit and surefire reason to terminate them and face zero ($) blowback.

Thats where I'm coming from.

 nels1031 wrote:
We're going off on a tangent with the nurse abandonment thing.

A disagreement between myself and a number of other posters is occurring because they believe the officer(s) should be fired. I disagree. That is the fundamental disagreement.

I don't care about the reason why you want him fired. Potential Abandonment of patients, unprofessional conduct, gakky haircut, annoying voice, a Patriots fan could all be reasons you want him fired. Regardless of your reasoning, I disagree that he should be fired. Thats all.

The departments policy for blood draw wasn't updated to reflect recent Supreme Court rulings(until after this event). Its safe to assume he was trained to not need a warrant for blood draw, as well as his superior, who gave the order for detaininment, of what he beleived to be a belligerent party while his officer was going about his duty. He was wrong, no argument there.

[MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] these guys is a bit harsh when the negligence of the department policy writers/administrators failed them so thoroughly by not bringing the department's policy's and training up to date with recent legal developments.

The state will certainly face a lawsuit at this point, from the nurse. Fire one or all the officers (unlikely), I guarantee the state will face 1-3 solid unlawful termination lawsuits, costing the taxpayers more money on top of whats paid out to the nurse. Transfer/reassign all involved officers, give them the opportunity to learn from it. Watch them like hawks and if they can't learn from it and they gak the bed again, you now have a legit and surefire reason to terminate them and face zero ($) blowback.

Thats where I'm coming from.

Did you read anything about this situation? The departments policy for blood draw was updated, they agreed to the new policy with the Hospital this occurred at. The Officer also had to be updated on this because he is a licensed Paramedic and Phlebotomist. (Fun Fact, if you work in healthcare, you have to do so many hours of continued education each year in order to keep your license. This includes new procedures, updated to procedures, tons of HIPPA updates, as well as updates to other laws)

Furthermore, this police officer violated her constitutional rights. How do you get unlawful termination lawsuits out of this?

You are trying really hard here. But you are still 100% wrong.

From what I read, policy changes happened after the incident.

The Salt Lake City police chief and mayor also apologized and changed department policies on blood draws. Police spokeswoman Christina Judd said the new policy does not allow for implied consent for any party and requires a warrant or consent.

Judd also said the agency has met with hospital administration to ensure it does not happen again and to repair relationships.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-nurse-arrested-20170902-story.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

Furthermore, this police officer violated her constitutional rights. How do you get unlawful termination lawsuits out of this?
.

Only because they felt she was impeding an investigation while they adhered to department policies that were not updated. Firing them for not adhering to policies that didn't exist until after the event would have every lawyer that likes money(all of them) lining up to help them sue their former employer.

 whembly wrote:
'Tis why now, you'll only have facilities managment/security deal with the police, rather than the actual clinicians.

best way forward.

Except that a) one of them was a paramedic and should have known this, and b) the updated law and hospital procedure were explained to them, calmly, rationally and professionally - by at least two separate people.
The only belligerent party here was the cops.

 nels1031 wrote:

[MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] these guys is a bit harsh when the negligence of the department policy writers/administrators failed them so thoroughly by not bringing the department's policy's and training up to date with recent legal developments.

If I can be fired, arrested, charged, and convicted for a crime despite not knowing the law, I see no reason why a police officer should not be subject to such either. The officers snapped when presented with a printed document explaining the policy and why they were in the wrong, they didn't want to be corrected, they weren't going to listen to anyone.

The officer in question also threatens to, as part of his paramedic gig, only bring in transients (usually problem patients) and take the others elsewhere, which has all sorts of implications for patient care nevermind the vindictive abuse of that position. That alone should be a serious enough violation of public trust to warrant being fired from a position of authority and responsibility.