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 Xenomancers wrote:
-Impeding a police investigation is breaking a law and subjects you to arrest. Do you dispute this?

A cop can't do whatever he wants when investigating, however. He's not given carte blanche to do anything, demand help from anyone. He can't demand you set aside your work or free time to help him with your special gear or knowledge just because he has to wait for a department expert otherwise, unless there's a real emergency ofc. You're not required to handle his investigation-related problems for him. Even me, in my lowly security job (with keys and codes to hundreds of sites around the city) can simply refuse to open places for an officer if he can't present the necessary papers to go somewhere (or a real emergency, as said). I'd be out of a job pretty soon if I let random cops into places they have no warrant for just because they claim I'm "impeding an investigation".

A bit off topic but close by. Do you ever watch fictional cop TV shows where the tough detective asks some random guy a question, the guy demands to know why and is told he'll get hauled in for "obstruction of justice" if he doesn't answer? Yeah, it doesn't work like that. Your own constitution (5th Amendment) says you're not required to testify against yourself, and a cop asking you questions without specifying if you might be a suspect has no right to get an answer. You're not "impeding his investigation", you're exercising your legal rights (that he's trying to browbeat you into forfeiting).

 Xenomancers wrote:
Heres a hypothetical Vaktathi -
Lets say the nurse didn't interfere and Payne drew the lab sample. It's found to contain methamphetamine and the truck driver was drunk during the accident.

The county tries to deny any culpability to the accident because the guy was intoxicated. Then...the truck drivers attorney gets the records and finds they get collected illegally. The lab reports are stricken from the record and the case is thrown out. As would anything found in an illegal seizure. They would also be ordered to destroy the records. In other words - samples collected illegally are 100% useless. There is no incentive to collect evidence illegally.

except they do it all the time and it then falls to the defense attorney to show it that evidence was illegally obtained (and, even if instructed not to consider that evidence, it will still be in the back of a juror's mind), and in such cases pretty much nothing ever happens to the officer who engaged in the illegal act.

There's plenty of incetive to illegally collect evidence. Maybe they can pressure for a plea deal without having to take it to court (which is what happens in the vast majority of criminal cases), maybe the defense attorney sucks (it happens), some times it just boils down to ego and ****-waving etc. Just because there are safeguards in place doesnt mean it doesnt happen or that those safeguards always work (or work in a meaningfully timely manner).

By your same line of thinking, nobody would ever do anything illegal, because theyd be arrested and punished, and yet, people do so by the thousands every day...

And in this case, the cop in question did a number of other wrong things to boot, such as arresting and assaulting the nurse, joking about abusing a paramedic gig, etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lets say the nurse didn't interfere and Payne drew the lab sample. It's found to contain methamphetamine and the truck driver was drunk during the accident.

The county tries to deny any culpability to the accident because the guy was intoxicated. Then...the truck drivers attorney gets the records and finds they get collected illegally. The lab reports are stricken from the record and the case is thrown out. As would anything found in an illegal seizure. They would also be ordered to destroy the records. In other words - samples collected illegally are 100% useless. There is no incentive to collect evidence illegally.

But what if Payne had managed to force hospital staff to collect the sample? Now the police haven't wrongly collected it, they're just bringing it in as evidence provided by a third party. Perfectly admissible! Genius!

Thats not how the chain of custody works in criminal cases. The evidence has to be legally obtained via consent or warrant. Having a third party do it is not a legal end run, else the PoPo could get some guys to beat a confession out of you and have that be admissable. The courts would (and have) view the third party as acting under direction of the PoPo and therefore subject to the same limitations.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Heres a hypothetical Vaktathi -
Lets say the nurse didn't interfere and Payne drew the lab sample. It's found to contain methamphetamine and the truck driver was drunk during the accident.

The county tries to deny any culpability to the accident because the guy was intoxicated. Then...the truck drivers attorney gets the records and finds they get collected illegally. The lab reports are stricken from the record and the case is thrown out. As would anything found in an illegal seizure. They would also be ordered to destroy the records. In other words - samples collected illegally are 100% useless. There is no incentive to collect evidence illegally.

The attorney would then ask why the nurses did not stop him, as his patient advocate. When the attorney learns that she just stood to the side and let him through, a lawsuit would be opened against the hospital and the nurse. The nurse would lose, because legally she has to protect the patient she has in her care.

You don't understand the laws that govern healthcare, at all. You make this clear every time you try to push this Judge Dredd type of policing as alright.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Heres a hypothetical Vaktathi -
Lets say the nurse didn't interfere and Payne drew the lab sample. It's found to contain methamphetamine and the truck driver was drunk during the accident.

The county tries to deny any culpability to the accident because the guy was intoxicated. Then...the truck drivers attorney gets the records and finds they get collected illegally. The lab reports are stricken from the record and the case is thrown out. As would anything found in an illegal seizure. They would also be ordered to destroy the records. In other words - samples collected illegally are 100% useless. There is no incentive to collect evidence illegally.

The attorney would then ask why the nurses did not stop him, as his patient advocate. When the attorney learns that she just stood to the side and let him through, a lawsuit would be opened against the hospital and the nurse. The nurse would lose, because legally she has to protect the patient she has in her care.

You don't understand the laws that govern healthcare, at all. You make this clear every time you try to push this Judge Dredd type of policing as alright.

Since she has no legal right to impede the officer - there would also be no case. Her job is not to physically restrain a threat to a patient - but to report these kinds of things to the authorities/ her superiors. Anything else is beyond her call of duty. Notice the hospital changed it's policy to have 0 nurse on police contact? It's because they aren't qualified to deal with them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Heres a hypothetical Vaktathi -
Lets say the nurse didn't interfere and Payne drew the lab sample. It's found to contain methamphetamine and the truck driver was drunk during the accident.

The county tries to deny any culpability to the accident because the guy was intoxicated. Then...the truck drivers attorney gets the records and finds they get collected illegally. The lab reports are stricken from the record and the case is thrown out. As would anything found in an illegal seizure. They would also be ordered to destroy the records. In other words - samples collected illegally are 100% useless. There is no incentive to collect evidence illegally.

That hypothetical is totally irrelevant and inane.

Payne literally had no right to take a blood sample from Gray. There was no implied consent, there was no probable cause, there was no warrant, there were no exigent circumstances and there was no implicit consent from the patient. Legally Payne had no right to take blood from Gray, that is an indisputable fact. If Payne had taken blood it would have been inadmissible because it was illegally obtained.

The nurse was not impeding an investigation. Gray has never and is not the target of a criminal investigation. Nobody at the hospital was going to give Payne a blood sample or give him access to Gray to get one. If Wubbels was truly the impediment to Payne getting blood samples then why didn't Payne get blood samples when Wubbels was handcuffed outside for over 30 minutes? Wubbels was out of the picture so who or what was preventing Payne from getting blood? Since Payne didn't get blood samples why wasn't anyone else arrested? If Wubbels really did commit the crime of impeding a criminal investigation then why are Payne and Tracy on video discussing the fact that they're not going to bring charges against her?

Every single legal argument Payne and Tracy, the two officers in charge of blood draws, made to the hospital staff was legally incorrect. Both officers whose job is to legally collect blood evidence for the department were making false legal claims that had been invalidated over a decade ago by the Utah state supreme court and by the Federal supreme court. The hospital has a vested interest in knowing the laws that govern its' patients had a policy that reflected those laws and had staff who were informed of those laws. The police, who also had a powerful vested interest in knowing the law that governed their primary jobs, were both willfully ignorant and were deliberately trying to engage in illegal activity that would have opened up their department to lawsuits and made the blood they collected inadmissible evidence. That kind of massive screw up certainly meets the definition for a just cause firing.

There was nothing that Payne and Tracy could have legally done to get the blood samples they wanted, everything they did to try to get those samples was wrong, had no legal justification and is going to result in lawsuits and serious consequences.

Since she has no legal right to impede the officer - there would also be no case. Her job is not to physically restrain a threat to a patient - but to report these kinds of things to the authorities/ her superiors. Anything else is beyond her call of duty. Notice the hospital changed it's policy to have 0 nurse on police contact? It's because they aren't qualified to deal with them.

Again you are in error. She didn't impede the officer. There is no video of her trying to taze him, sic dogs on him, block him, or even call him a bald headed poopy head. She just said they weren't going to do it themselves.

Sorry there's no way you can paint this outside of a martial law scenario where it comes out good for him.

Fire him, his boss, and all the non hospital police that were standing around at the time witnessing an intentional and knowing violation of basis Consitutional rights.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Heres a hypothetical Vaktathi -
Lets say the nurse didn't interfere and Payne drew the lab sample. It's found to contain methamphetamine and the truck driver was drunk during the accident.

The county tries to deny any culpability to the accident because the guy was intoxicated. Then...the truck drivers attorney gets the records and finds they get collected illegally. The lab reports are stricken from the record and the case is thrown out. As would anything found in an illegal seizure. They would also be ordered to destroy the records. In other words - samples collected illegally are 100% useless. There is no incentive to collect evidence illegally.

The attorney would then ask why the nurses did not stop him, as his patient advocate. When the attorney learns that she just stood to the side and let him through, a lawsuit would be opened against the hospital and the nurse. The nurse would lose, because legally she has to protect the patient she has in her care.

You don't understand the laws that govern healthcare, at all. You make this clear every time you try to push this Judge Dredd type of policing as alright.

The nurses would be named but the entire hospital would get sued. That's why the hospital has a policy that specifically forbids their staff from engaging in the unlawful collection of blood samples from hospital patients. If hospital staff let police officers walk into the room of an unconscious patient and violate his body and his rights then the hospital is going to get hit with huge lawsuit and see their insurance premiums greatly increase. The hospital has a tremendous financial interest in making sure that their employees don't engage in illegal activities done against the patients in their care. No member of the hospital staff was going to forfeit their careers and licensure just because the police officers illegally asked them to do so. This incident is literally a police officer being ignorant of the law he's citing and then throwing a temper tantrum and blaming the messenger for pointing out his ignorance and refusing to placate him.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Stop hitting yourself!

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

Please demonstrate where she was "preventing" the officer from drawing the blood. As noted, why wasn't the blood drawn after she was arrested, oh yea, because the cop knew it was illegal...

Even then I would bet any medic has quite wide latitude to stop the police taking blood if doing so would be harmful to the patient, even if the officer has a warrant. Time and again it has been said, the police do not have absolute authority to do as they wish.

I wold expect that any medical staff in a hospital would have a duty of care to patients under their care, including stopping a police officer taking blood, which they have no right to do. If what the nurse was doing was illegal, why what she released?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

You're right. She "refused to do illegal things (allow an illegal blood draw on a helpless patient in her custodianship) because an officer threatened [her] to try to get [her] to do so". How could I have missed that? ENTIRELY DIFFERENT!

Though now that you bring it up, it's goddamned impressive that she managed to continue to prevent him from drawing the blood himself while handcuffed in a freaking squad car. Man, maybe the police need her working for them.

The cop had the same right to access the patient as any cop has to walk into your home to draw blood from you: none.

A hospital room is a private space, and police can and should be denied access to an area where a patient has a right of privacy. Cops need warrants or probable cause to even enter the hospital room, and that's not even talking about the blood draw at all.

We should probably lock the thread by now. We have multiple people explain why, for multiple reasons, the officer was acting unprofessionally and illegally. We also have one guy whose argument boils down to "he has a 'do whatever I want and get away with it badge' so there nurse was wrong". The past three pages have been repeat and rinse of the same argument.

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

You're right. She "refused to do illegal things (allow an illegal blood draw on a helpless patient in her custodianship) because an officer threatened [her] to try to get [her] to do so". How could I have missed that? ENTIRELY DIFFERENT!

Though now that you bring it up, it's goddamned impressive that she managed to continue to prevent him from drawing the blood himself while handcuffed in a freaking squad car. Man, maybe the police need her working for them.

She has magic powers. Maybe we can employ her as a failsafe to NK from launching nukes, or alternatively, another Avatar movie being released.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

She does have the legal right to impede the officer. I keep telling you that, but for some reason you keep ignoring it.

You are wrong. 100% wrong. She has the right to stop him. She has the right to throw him out of the Hospital if she feels it is having a negative impact on her patients. Nurse > Police when it comes to patient care.

 Frazzled wrote:

She has magic powers. Maybe we can employ her as a failsafe to NK from launching nukes, or alternatively, another Avatar movie being released.

"Are you telling me I can dodge police officers?"

"No, I'm telling you that when you're ready, you won't have to."

 Xenomancers wrote:
Wow...so the guy is talking to his friend after the fact and makes a joke and you are trying to use that against him?

I contend he was not joking.

It's completely understandable why he'd be frustrated and stressed after this even.

I contend that anyone would be frustrated and stressed after being caught abusing one's authority and committing not one, but dos offenses that warrant firing.

You are talking semantics with your definition of what a civilian is.

Sure it's semantics, but so what? Being police doesn't put one above question, and if you can't handle having your authority questioned you probably shouldn't be a public servant.

It's not uncommon to count police as standing army in military situations

In a police state...

She wouldn't be in trouble...

Nurses can be sued for malpractice, which letting that cop violate a patient's civil right's constitutes.

If anything illegal occurred - the cop would be in trouble.

Except something illegal did occur and he didn't get in trouble until the story hit the information highway.

They would also be ordered to destroy the records. In other words - samples collected illegally are 100% useless.

They are in fact not, especially since most states have no law pertaining to what the police are supposed to do with DNA samples after the fact. It's almost always forced upon people to go to court to get an order for them to be destroyed which is expensive and surprisingly hard to do (just ask 19 guys from Baton Rouge). In fact it is easier for the police to keep your DNA if you're never charged with a crime cause you can't go to court and argue harm, and if you happen to be charged with one ten years later using that DNA that was taken from you to "rule you out as a suspect" or maybe when some thug decided he should "draw some blood cause I want to" it's too late. Even if the evidence gets thrown out they now know you did it, and can investigate independently to prove the case. It's a complete circumvention of due process rights, but hey they're cops and I guess I should just shut up and let them do whatever they want *pours tea*

As a matter of your own personal liberty you should never give the police DNA, even if you're innocent of the given crime being investigated. It can in fact only hurt you in the long run which is why we should all be glad it's illegal to take blood from us while we're incapacitated and we should all be offended that a police officer not only tried to do so, but arrested the first person to point out he wasn't allowed to do so.

But I guess some people have different ideals of how law enforcement should behave;





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

I guess everyone forgot that time police nearly beat a man to death and then charged him with destruction of property when they couldn't wash the blood stains out of their uniforms

...I did, actually. I forgot that literally happened.

 Spinner wrote:
...I did, actually. I forgot that literally happened.

Well go back to forgetting. This is America where we respect authority so much we keep our heads down and move along

 Frazzled wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

Please demonstrate where she was "preventing" the officer from drawing the blood. As noted, why wasn't the blood drawn after she was arrested, oh yea, because the cop knew it was illegal...

Because timing. He arrests the nurse then calls his boss - he says let her go - we will get the sample another way.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Because timing. He arrests the nurse then calls his boss - he says let her go - we will get the sample another way.

"Plan A failed. We'll have to find another way to violate civil liberties."

Sounds like there are two cops who really shouldn't be cops anymore

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

Please demonstrate where she was "preventing" the officer from drawing the blood. As noted, why wasn't the blood drawn after she was arrested, oh yea, because the cop knew it was illegal...

Because timing. He arrests the nurse then calls his boss - he says let her go - we will get the sample another way.

Because his boss realized that without a warrant or probable cause there was no way for Payne to get a blood sample from the burn victim who wasn't the target of any kind of investigation because he was a victim of a car crash that was completely filmed by police dash cams that showed Gray did nothing wrong. There was literally no way that Payne could have legally obtained a blood sample from Gray at the hospital, none. There was no reason for him to be there in the first place and his ignorance of the law and inability to control his emotions are the only things that caused the incident with the nurse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Because timing. He arrests the nurse then calls his boss - he says let her go - we will get the sample another way.

"Plan A failed. We'll have to find another way to violate civil liberties."

Sounds like there are two cops who really shouldn't be cops anymore

Yeah Payne and Tracy should both be fired. Two cops whose primary role is collecting blood samples and they are both completely ignorant of the major state and federal supreme court decisions that directly impacted their jobs and continued to operate under an erroneous understanding of the law for over a decade that led them to believe that they could willfully commit illegal acts against the populace with impunity.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

Have to ask. was the officer carrying equipment to draw the blood him self or was he expecting the hospital to do it for him and or lend him the equipment he has no rights to.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

Have to ask. was the officer carrying equipment to draw the blood him self or was he expecting the hospital to do it for him and or lend him the equipment he has no rights to.

Payne should be grateful that Wubbels didn't allow him illegally violate the body of an unconscious burn victim. If Payne had drawn blood from Gray he would have committed an additional crime that would have likely gotten the department he works for sued by the victim's family, along with suing the hospital and having the hospital sue the police department as well, and could have faced criminal charges himself as well as losing his job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Since she has no legal right to impede the officer

According to some people, "Refusing to do illegal things because an officer threatened you to try to get you to do so" == "Impeding an officer".

Next you'll tell us that people who get beaten to death by cops are guilty of assault because they got blood on their uniforms.

Man - the smallest amount of research beyond reading the title of the article you'd realize that's not what this is about. This nurse wasn't arrested for refusing to draw the patient herself. She was arrested for preventing the officer from drawing the patient himself (who is a certified phlebotomist - and also part time paramedic).

So the nurse who was easily manhandled and dragged out of the hospital by Payne was somehow physically stopping Payne from drawing blood from Gray, the unconscious burn victim, even though the nurse never laid a hand on Payne? Nobody on the hospital staff was going to cooperate with Payne, not Wubbels or any other staffer, especially not after having the hospital admin explain the law and policy over speakerphone for the whole room to hear, but nobody was going to physically restrain Payne either. If he really wanted the blood sample he could have forced the issue and done it himself, but he never did, he just argued with hospital staff erroneously citing outdated laws and then dragged a nurse out of the hospital because Payne's ignorance of the law and rude demeanor wasn't enough to convince Wubbels to do an illegal act on his behalf.

Because he knew if he did it himself it would be his ass.

The willful ignorance of the folks defending the police officers is staggering...

Makes me PROUD to be 'Murican!

The police needed a warrant or consent from the patient to obtain the blood sample.

They had neither.

This is the part some are choking on - the police were trying to seize a blood sample (yes, for those arguing that 'seize' doesn't apply - yeah, it does) from an unconscious victim, who was not suspected of any crimes.

The officers were informed of this.

Does anybody really think that the cop didn't know he needed a warrant? Really?

Now the FBI is being called in to investigate - making it harder for the police department to sweep this away.

The Auld Grump

The FBI? Things getting interesting. There's a lot of things that have been revealed by this specific incident that point to the possibility of rampant police corruption in Salt Lake.