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What is the scope of Stratagems and buffs? Enemies and Allies Question  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





A common theme among recent games here has been that no one can decide what Stratagems or buffs are allowed to affect. So let's look at the facts and evidence.

Counter- Offensive stratagem specifically mentions it applies to your own units.
"This Stratagem is used right after an enemy unit that charged has fought. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next."


Insane Bravery stratagem is by its own definition only applicable to your own units.
"You can automatically pass a single Morale test (this Stratagem must be used before taking the test).


Command Re-roll originally was ambiguous about its scope.
"You can re-roll any single dice."


Yet GW clarified it's intent while being quite specific that it applies only to re-rolls.
"Q. Can I use the Command Re-roll Stratagem to re-roll a dice roll made by my opponent?
A. No. Note that the rules assume that a player always rolls their own dice (instead of asking their opponent, for example, to roll hit rolls, saving throws, etc. on their behalf).
That being the case, you can only use the above-mentioned Stratagem to affect dice rolls you make, and not those made by your opponent."


Other Stratagems lack such clarification. The only requirement for their use is that you qualify for them by army list. This does not necessarily stop you using them on your ally detachments.
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any Chaos Space Marine Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments), you have access to the Stratagems shown here, meaning you can spend Command Points to activate them. These help to reflect the unique strategies used by the Heretic Astartes on the battlefield."


Each Stratagem is limited in what it can affect by its own text. Such as:
"Endless Cacophony - Use this Stratagem at the end of your Shooting phase. Select a Heretic Astartes Slaanesh Infantry or Biker unit - that unit can immediately shoot again."


Yet if you're playing with allied detachments that include Heretic Astartes Slaanesh Infantry units, can this apply to them? Is your commander overseeing an entire force tactically?
What about allies in general? Can you apply such a Stratagem to your ally player's Heretic Astartes Slaanesh Infantry unit? Is your commander capable of lending his experience to friends?
How does this affect your view of buff auras? If my Lord applies rolls to all nearby friendly <Legion> units, do other detachments or allied players that meet the requirements count?
If I'm using Guilliman in a megabattle with all kinds of friendly Imperium units from multiple players and detachments near him, do they all benefit from Master of Battle?

But what of your enemies? If they too meet the requirements of a stratagem, can they be affected? Sometimes it's not beneficial to buff your enemies. What if it is?
"Tide of Traitors - Use this Stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. If you do, pick a unit of Chaos Cultists and remove it from the battlefield. You can then set it up again wholly within 6" of the edge of the battlefield and more than 9" from any enemy models, at its full starting strength."


What of psychic powers? Some clearly denote enemy models are the target. Others leave it open to anything that seems to meet the requirement. Do these apply to allies and/or enemies?
"Diabolic Strength has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select a Heretic Astartes model within 12" of the psyker. Unit the start of your next Psychic phase, add 2 to that model's Strength characteristic and 1 to its Attacks characteristic."


Typically when an effect carries negative consequences, it's quite clear you must select one of YOUR units for those consequences.
"Chaos Boon - Use this Stratagem at the end of a Fight phase in which one of your Heretic Astartes Characters (not a Daemon Prince) slays an enemy Character, Vehicle, or Monster. Roll 2d6 and look up the result below."


But what if it doesn't state you must select one of YOUR units for those consequences? Can you "buff" your enemies and leave them wishing you didn't? Or estrange your allies with begrudging "gifts"?
"Enhanced Warriors - Fabius Bile can enhance one unit of Heretic Astartes Infantry (but not Characters - they refuse the dubious honour of Bile's gifts) that is within 1" of him at the end of any Movement phase. Roll a D6 for each model in the unit; the unit suffers 1 mortal wound for each roll of a 6 (only the strong survive Bile's expiremental cocktails). Then roll a D3 and refer to the table below to see what bonus the survivors gain for the rest of the battle. A unit can only be enhanced once per game."


-

So where does all of this leave us? What are the mechanics - buffs, strats, auras, powers, or abilities - actually able to affect?

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Arkaine wrote:


Yet if you're playing with allied detachments that include Heretic Astartes Slaanesh Infantry units, can this apply to them? Is your commander overseeing an entire force tactically?
What about allies in general? Can you apply such a Stratagem to your ally player's Heretic Astartes Slaanesh Infantry unit? Is your commander capable of lending his experience to friends?
How does this affect your view of buff auras? If my Lord applies rolls to all nearby friendly <Legion> units, do other detachments or allied players that meet the requirements count?
If I'm using Guilliman in a megabattle with all kinds of friendly Imperium units from multiple players and detachments near him, do they all benefit from Master of Battle?


"Allies" Isn't a meaningful concept anymore. You can only use Chaos Space Marine stratagems on Chaos Space Marines. That's about it, detachments don't matter.

 Arkaine wrote:

But what of your enemies? If they too meet the requirements of a stratagem, can they be affected? Sometimes it's not beneficial to buff your enemies. What if it is?
"Tide of Traitors - Use this Stratagem at the end of your Movement phase. If you do, pick a unit of Chaos Cultists and remove it from the battlefield. You can then set it up again wholly within 6" of the edge of the battlefield and more than 9" from any ene my models, at its full starting strength."


Really? Lets assume no.. probably rules reinforcing that somewhere.

 Arkaine wrote:

What of psychic powers? Some clearly denote enemy models are the target. Others leave it open to anything that seems to meet the requirement. Do these apply to allies and/or enemies?
"Diabolic Strength has a warp charge value of 6. If manifested, select a Heretic Astartes model within 12" of the psyker. Unit the start of your next Psychic phase, add 2 to that model's Strength characteristic and 1 to its Attacks characteristic."


Psychic powers will be specific to what they effect. I guess they can sometimes affect friendlys and enemies.




 Arkaine wrote:

Typically when an effect carries negative consequences, it's quite clear you must select one of YOUR units for those consequences.
"Chaos Boon - Use this Stratagem at the end of a Fight phase in which one of your Heretic Astartes Characters (not a Daemon Prince) slays an enemy Character, Vehicle, or Monster. Roll 2d6 and look up the result below."

But what if it doesn't state you must select one of YOUR units for those consequences? Can you "buff" your enemies and leave them wishing you didn't? Or estrange your allies with begrudging "gifts"?
"Enhanced Warriors - Fabius Bile can enhance one unit of Heretic Astartes Infantry (but not Characters - they refuse the dubious honour of Bile's gifts) that is within 1" of him at the end of any Movement phase. Roll a D6 for each model in the unit; the unit suffers 1 mortal wound for each roll of a 6 (only the strong survive Bile's expiremental cocktails). Then roll a D3 and refer to the table below to see what bonus the survivors gain for the rest of the battle. A unit can only be enhanced once per game."


Ok that one's kinda cool. Technically yes Fabius can enhance enemy units.
-

DFTT 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Arkaine wrote:
A common theme among recent games here has been that no one can decide what Stratagems or buffs are allowed to affect. So let's look at the facts and evidence.

Just use common sense. If your ability/strategem was supposed to be a super-trickery sneaky way to damage an opponent, it would say so. If it says "pick a model and give it X or Y" it's one of yours. That's HIWPI of course, same with the next answer:
What about allies in general?

I'd suggest to either treat everything as if it's one army, then all units on your side will be units you control. Or you treat everyone as their own army, just treat any unit that's on your side but not under your control as neutral - they'll not interfere with e.g. Smite, but they'll also not benefit from your Strategems or buffs. I think both variants have their merit, e.g. a huge Imperium army where one player controls Iron Hands, one controls Sisters and the third controls Ultramarines would probably make more sense played as a huge army instead of three, whereas a pick-up mix of Eldar, Tau and Mechanicum would probably work better as three armies neutral to each other.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

As Nekooni stated;
If you need to twist something around to get to the conclusion, it is unlikely to be correct.


Previous Editions we couldn't think this way, as the format of the Rules was unchanged for decades and morphed into a life form in it's own right. As more and more Rules where added to the system, and other ones removed or changed, this pseudo-legal way to read the Rules became the only way to get them to function... not just as intended, but in many cases the Rules only functioned if you read them like a bloody legal document. Now we have an entirely new system that is, more or less, designed from the ground up. We have Authors that have produced commentary to highlight how they intend the Rules they wrote to function. Throughout it all is the overtone that Rules are to be more simple, that complicated interactions and the lawyer way of thinking that go with them are things of the past. So if the Authors intended for a loophole to be exploited, they wouldn't have made it a loophole in the first place....
At least... for the first few Codex's, as more additions to the game lead to more rule-Interactions... and the way of the lawyer that is.

Although:
Could easily be fixed by a Restriction stating "Friendly Units/Models only" by default, Stratagems that work on your Enemy clearly state so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/03 23:02:56


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 JinxDragon wrote:
Could easily be fixed by a Restriction stating "Friendly Units/Models only" by default, Stratagems that work on your Enemy clearly state so.

Then hopefully they do that. As it stands, the RAW shenanigans are legit even though I doubt Stratagems are supposed to work on enemies. Or even things outside your detachment. But there are no rules reinforcing this anywhere. Only one that grants them if you have a battle forged list. It's infuriating.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Arkaine wrote:
 JinxDragon wrote:
Could easily be fixed by a Restriction stating "Friendly Units/Models only" by default, Stratagems that work on your Enemy clearly state so.

Then hopefully they do that. As it stands, the RAW shenanigans are legit even though I doubt Stratagems are supposed to work on enemies. Or even things outside your detachment. But there are no rules reinforcing this anywhere. Only one that grants them if you have a battle forged list. It's infuriating.

Arent most of the buffs restricted to keywords anyway? Doesn't matter where the CP comes from, but the Strategems are usually keyyword-locked. And those that aren't are probably meant to be applied to any unit in your detachments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/05 06:26:59


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

He mentioned a few that contain negatives as well, which is why he considers it a loop-hole exploit if you use it hoping for the negative outcome:
Biles slimy voice "oooooh, I know your trying to stab me and all, but can I interest you and your men with this experimental transplant... it will only take a seeeeceonnnnd!"

8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Plus there's the Tide of Traitors that turns your own cultists into traitors seeing how I can take them off the field and redeploy them at any board edge. You know, far far away from the units you wanted to screen them with.

I can just see a Chaos Lord or Sorcerer being escorted by a horde of cultists and then *POOF* his bodyguards vanish because it was JUST AS PLANNED!

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Vanished Completely

I see Scorpion's 'come here' move at the same time:-
That 9 inch restriction is on Enemy Units, so feel free to Set those Cultists up within 1 inch of your Units, locking it straight into combat....

Additionally, it could Blue Screens the game:-
If you conclude that Model being set up remains an Enemy Unit, then it is always going to be within 9 inches of an Enemy Unit - Itself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/05 20:35:53


8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures.  
   
 
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