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I just finished reading through the new space marine codex and I saw some thing interesting, that there was no profile for a Chapter Master that you pay with points to get instead you can get one by using a stratagem to turn a captain into one which has the same stats but a better aura ability. I do not have the grey knights or the heretic astartes codexes so I don't know if this is already a trend but my question is do you think this is going to be a trend were the highest level hq can be upgraded by a stratagem to a stronger one? For example after the death guard codex the Ad Mech one is next and the highest general, and only, hq unit is the tech-priest dominus and I have heard people wish that GW would realese a general Archmagos model so people wouldn't be forced to use Cawl but do you think instead they will create a stratagem that turns a regular dominus into something like an archmagos and replace the Lord of the Mchine Cult rule with some thing like Lord of <Forge World>?

 KingGarland wrote:
I just finished reading through the new space marine codex and I saw some thing interesting, that there was no profile for a Chapter Master that you pay with points to get instead you can get one by using a stratagem to turn a captain into one which has the same stats but a better aura ability. I do not have the grey knights or the heretic astartes codexes so I don't know if this is already a trend but my question is do you think this is going to be a trend were the highest level hq can be upgraded by a stratagem to a stronger one? For example after the death guard codex the Ad Mech one is next and the highest general, and only, hq unit is the tech-priest dominus and I have heard people wish that GW would realese a general Archmagos model so people wouldn't be forced to use Cawl but do you think instead they will create a stratagem that turns a regular dominus into something like an archmagos and replace the Lord of the Mchine Cult rule with some thing like Lord of <Forge World>?

I really hate that direction

3 CP is a LOT and puts you at far more of a disadvantage compared to other marine armies that have named chapter masters.

and most of those chapter masters also come with way more benefits.

Sure. Why not? If they make/release a model for it.

Chaos one lets you take a Chaos Lord straight from the book. I think the Stratagem is an interesting one in that it lets players who haven't bought a Special Character get the main benefits of some of those characters!

Personally, I find it a little weird and off-putting that many items which used to be Upgrades are actually Stratagems. I mean, something like Telemetric Data might make sense (the commander served as Landspeeder Pilot, and is an expert in coordinating Whirlwind Strikes), but something like Hellfire Shells feels weird. Is my commander Siegfried or Roy, hiding Cybernetics in his suit until they're conveniently needed to stop a Mortal Wound? Is he ordering his men to pull Cluster Mines out of a rabbit? Or is he transforming into a Chapter Master? Is the high CP cost of an Orbital Strike representative of said commander not being able to focus on leading because he has to deal with the Battle Barge's automated message system?

"Hello and thank you for dialing the Litany of Fury's automated vox message system. All our Chapter Serfs are currently assisting other Battle Brothers. For Drop Pods, press 1. For ETC FAQs, press 2. Forgeworld FAQs, press 3. GW FAQs, press 4. ITC FAQs press 5. NOVA FAQs, press 6. Orbital Strikes, press 7..."

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Personally, I find it a little weird and off-putting that many items which used to be Upgrades are actually Stratagems. I mean, something like Telemetric Data might make sense (the commander served as Landspeeder Pilot, and is an expert in coordinating Whirlwind Strikes), but something like Hellfire Shells feels weird. Is my commander Siegfried or Roy, hiding Cybernetics in his suit until they're conveniently needed to stop a Mortal Wound? Is he ordering his men to pull Cluster Mines out of a rabbit? Or is he transforming into a Chapter Master? Is the high CP cost of an Orbital Strike representative of said commander not being able to focus on leading because he has to deal with the Battle Barge's automated message system?

"Hello and thank you for dialing the Litany of Fury's automated vox message system. All our Chapter Serfs are currently assisting other Battle Brothers. For Drop Pods, press 1. For ETC FAQs, press 2. Forgeworld FAQs, press 3. GW FAQs, press 4. ITC FAQs press 5. NOVA FAQs, press 6. Orbital Strikes, press 7..."

It would imply every single infantry with a heavy bolter was running around with hell fire shells and needs "permission" to use them ditto with cluster mines and tremor shells.

its fine in the sense of the game but logically eh..

 Desubot wrote:

3 CP is a LOT and puts you at far more of a disadvantage compared to other marine armies that have named chapter masters.

Depends on the army. Some can have 30+ CP in a 2000 pts army. 3 is nothing for them. As blood angels player i'd rather invest 3CP in a captain, instead of using commander dante, because he is insanely overpriced.

p5freak wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

3 CP is a LOT and puts you at far more of a disadvantage compared to other marine armies that have named chapter masters.

Depends on the army. Some can have 30+ CP in a 2000 pts army. 3 is nothing for them. As blood angels player i'd rather invest 3CP in a captain, instead of using commander dante, because he is insanely overpriced.

I guess that might be true.

just cheesed about Helbrecht and his +1 Str and chapter master bonuses and also how strong he is in CC.

i being a banana marine player :/

 Desubot wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Personally, I find it a little weird and off-putting that many items which used to be Upgrades are actually Stratagems. I mean, something like Telemetric Data might make sense (the commander served as Landspeeder Pilot, and is an expert in coordinating Whirlwind Strikes), but something like Hellfire Shells feels weird. Is my commander Siegfried or Roy, hiding Cybernetics in his suit until they're conveniently needed to stop a Mortal Wound? Is he ordering his men to pull Cluster Mines out of a rabbit? Or is he transforming into a Chapter Master? Is the high CP cost of an Orbital Strike representative of said commander not being able to focus on leading because he has to deal with the Battle Barge's automated message system?

"Hello and thank you for dialing the Litany of Fury's automated vox message system. All our Chapter Serfs are currently assisting other Battle Brothers. For Drop Pods, press 1. For ETC FAQs, press 2. Forgeworld FAQs, press 3. GW FAQs, press 4. ITC FAQs press 5. NOVA FAQs, press 6. Orbital Strikes, press 7..."

It would imply every single infantry with a heavy bolter was running around with hell fire shells and needs "permission" to use them ditto with cluster mines and tremor shells.

its fine in the sense of the game but logically eh..

"Sir, permission to fire a Psybolt?"

"Sir grants permission, because it pleases him."

-50 Shades of Grey Knight

Alternately, the Chapter Master has to file a report for each special-issue round fired, unless said rounds are being carried by Sternguard. I'm imagining the auditing process is hellish in the 41st millenium.

 jeff white wrote:
Sure. Why not? If they make/release a model for it.

Making it a stratagem upgrade instead of it's own unit means they don't have to make a new model, atleast for marines.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Personally, I find it a little weird and off-putting that many items which used to be Upgrades are actually Stratagems. I mean, something like Telemetric Data might make sense (the commander served as Landspeeder Pilot, and is an expert in coordinating Whirlwind Strikes), but something like Hellfire Shells feels weird. Is my commander Siegfried or Roy, hiding Cybernetics in his suit until they're conveniently needed to stop a Mortal Wound? Is he ordering his men to pull Cluster Mines out of a rabbit? Or is he transforming into a Chapter Master? Is the high CP cost of an Orbital Strike representative of said commander not being able to focus on leading because he has to deal with the Battle Barge's automated message system?

"Hello and thank you for dialing the Litany of Fury's automated vox message system. All our Chapter Serfs are currently assisting other Battle Brothers. For Drop Pods, press 1. For ETC FAQs, press 2. Forgeworld FAQs, press 3. GW FAQs, press 4. ITC FAQs press 5. NOVA FAQs, press 6. Orbital Strikes, press 7..."

Simply awesome!

 Yarium wrote:
Chaos one lets you take a Chaos Lord straight from the book. I think the Stratagem is an interesting one in that it lets players who haven't bought a Special Character get the main benefits of some of those characters!

Chaos Lord is equivalent to a Captain, you can't upgrade it to have the reroll all of Abaddon.

Yeah, I'd say this isn't going to be carried over judging by the fact CSM had no equivalent ability, and CSM and SM rather obviously have the most overlap. All the special snowflake chapters even have named CM so I imagine they won't have such a stratagem either.

 KingGarland wrote:
I just finished reading through the new space marine codex and I saw some thing interesting, that there was no profile for a Chapter Master that you pay with points to get instead you can get one by using a stratagem to turn a captain into one which has the same stats but a better aura ability. I do not have the grey knights or the heretic astartes codexes so I don't know if this is already a trend but my question is do you think this is going to be a trend were the highest level hq can be upgraded by a stratagem to a stronger one?

I don't think so, as no other army thus far has a similar stratagem. Part of the reason for the removal of the independent chapter master is probably due to the redundancy they had with captains in 6th/7th. There was no real reason to not upgrade a captain to a chapter master for a few points more and nothing to stop a player from bring multiple chapter masters with the same chapter tactics if desired. The new version allows people to bring their own chapter master while preventing multiples with the same chapter alignment and giving regular captains a reason to exist.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Personally, I find it a little weird and off-putting that many items which used to be Upgrades are actually Stratagems. I mean, something like Telemetric Data might make sense (the commander served as Landspeeder Pilot, and is an expert in coordinating Whirlwind Strikes), but something like Hellfire Shells feels weird. Is my commander Siegfried or Roy, hiding Cybernetics in his suit until they're conveniently needed to stop a Mortal Wound? Is he ordering his men to pull Cluster Mines out of a rabbit? Or is he transforming into a Chapter Master? Is the high CP cost of an Orbital Strike representative of said commander not being able to focus on leading because he has to deal with the Battle Barge's automated message system?
Is the high CP cost of an Orbital Strike representative of said commander not being able to focus on leading because he has to deal with the Battle Barge's automated message system?

I think most of the stratagems are intended to represent strategic/tactical assets with limited availability, with command points being a reflection as to how costly said strategic assets are. Hellfire Shells and Cluster Mines for instance aren't standard-issue munitions, so the stratagem cost reflects arrangements with the chapter armory to acquire a handful of them for use in the battle. Likewise, upgrading a captain to a chapter master isn't actually promoting the captain, it is fielding the actual chapter master who happens to be a significant strategic asset (hence the high CP cost to field him). Requesting an Orbital Strike also represents a fairly hefty strategic cost, both in having the battle barge disengage from whatever its orbital duties might be and in the coordination required to aim the bombardment in the general vicinity with any degree of accuracy.

The problem I see with that is points are already supposed to represent the strategic cost of units and wargear, so it's a little bit of weird overlap.

Being used to the old system, I also find it feels a bit wierd but I guess times change.

One advantage of using CPs is that you do not need to decide at list building time which Stratagems you will be using. You don't need to buy those Hellfire shells in advance, only to end up not using them because the model died or lacked a worthy target. Now you can decide on the spur of the moment that you need something to bring down the big bad.

 Karhedron wrote:
Being used to the old system, I also find it feels a bit wierd but I guess times change.

One advantage of using CPs is that you do not need to decide at list building time which Stratagems you will be using. You don't need to buy those Hellfire shells in advance, only to end up not using them because the model died or lacked a worthy target. Now you can decide on the spur of the moment that you need something to bring down the big bad.

Inversely, you could argue that it's creating a case of "hidden wargear", where you don't know which character in an army is the "surprise, I'm carrying a Vortex Grenade" wildcard. And when you take "hidden weapons" of that sort to their extreme, you might as well be playing Stratego.

I think the thing that just bothers me the most is how "wargear" and "maneuvers" operate off the same universal manabar (the same way everyone hated Deus Ex: Invisible War because there was one "abstracted" ammo counter for every gun in the game), leaving me sxratching my head as to what CP actually "is." With 7e Warp Charge, you didn't have to "handwave" as much. It's literally how much Warp Energy you're calling on, and calling on too much at once leads to 'splody 'eads.

CP for "maneuvers" and MacGuffin Points for "convenient wargear" could make sense (and it would give extra differentiation for Techmarines/Mekboyz/etc, as it represents them being better quartermasters). The rest is still just a holdover from things that have historically weirded me out, like how Guard Orders magically improve a Lasgun's fire rate.

I kinda like the "MacGuffin Points" idea, actually. It also provides a bit of extra reliable bonus for certain units that don't currently have one.

When does spending CP for things like the CM upgrade or more relics (or assigning your free relic for that matter) officially take place? Truth be told I usually incorporate it into my list because I can't imagine being against an army that would make me reconsider it.