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 ChainswordHeretic wrote:

EDIT my point has already been addressed by others.

@ Red Corsair, Even if someone posted similar beliefs as you I would still like to see what you think. I wanted to see if there was a majority consensus among players. I was thinking about doing a poll but there really is no way to narrow this down too a few questions. Also how would you like to see issues that arise handled?

Well I definitely don't want to form a mob and crucify players for mistakes but at the same time I feel that the laissez faire approach that has been the current response only causes the problem to get worse. I mean, you have to hold players accountable for their lists and errors or you send the wrong message. I mean how many years in a row has it been now that there was some problem from the top tables? Even the Open had an illegality in the list, and you here people down playing that as well. Since when are 2 free rerolls per game in an 8 round event a small thing? People played with fatey for years due to the power of rerolls, just another example and it's from the same event. I feel like inaccurate lists or sloppy play has become the norm which is a major issue, people hated comp scoring and wanted to judge players based purely on their skill at the game, well part of that skill is being able to play design a list and play your rules accurately. If someone makes a critical error they should have SOME sort of penalty brought forth. Count their wins as losses and move on with the event, if the events over issue a statement and take the title away and again move on. I mean if your leaning on the premise that everyone is there to have fun and make friends and the record is just icing as they say, then surely it doesn't undue said enjoyment by taking action on their scores and title? If it does then they were there for reasons contrary to the prevailing belief, which is fine, but next year if your there primarily for the title make sure you deserve it by actually winning under fair odds.

What is unacceptable in my humble opinion however is the toxic attitude coming from an organizer such as the recent NOVA thread. Labeling everyone who was concerned as a troll and suggesting that only paying attendees have a valid opinion is bullcrap. Fact is hundreds of events look to these larger ones when running their own and having a laid back crappy attitude in regards to cheating whether it be accidental or intentional is unacceptable in my eyes. It creates a bad precedent and culture and makes the community as a whole suffer. I also am further alarmed and concerned by such an attitude when those same people are play testing the game, if you have a laid back slack attitude in regard to rules then I am sorry but I don't want you on the short list of people GW turns to for advice on rules.


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 ChainswordHeretic wrote:

That is fair but "feelings" don't have a place in rulings. No matter what someone rules, someone will "feel" cheated. People feel they are cheated by dice rolls all the time, that doesn't necessarily mean they were cheated or that it is true. That is just how it is sometimes.

Alright Dark Severance I think you and others have brought me too the other side as far as previous opponents. I would still respect the player a little more if he made the effort between rounds to contact previous opponents and apologize if warranted. As far as the tournament goes I get it, there is no way to change what happened in previous games and trying to do so would most likely cause more problems than would be fixed. I guess I can be cool with that.

I disagree on the mentality that things can't be done retro actively. Sure you can't rectify the errors for each player and game that was played however you can count the player in questions previous games as loses as well and simply let the next player in line in the rankings move into his spot prior to the infraction. This penalizes said player and lets someone else more deserving move on ahead, you can't fix it with the previous opponents but you can prevent them from moving on ahead of someone else more deserving. LEtting the player continue on with no repercussions tells everyone it's no big deal trying to play accurately, even if your called out your still moving forward. This method also still allows them to finish the tourny and play more games and place based on whatever their final record is. It's in the spirit of the game as far as I am concerned, if your their primarily to get several games in and have fun then slipping down the totem doesn't change any of that. If your there to take heads and win then this teaches you a valuable lesson.


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 ChainswordHeretic wrote:
@Hulk Do you believe that there is no one gaming the systen now? Playing small rules mistakes to their advantage knowing they can probably get away with it and if not nothing will happen anyway? I don't think my suggestion for having you're rules was draconion, don't have them lose a point that round. Did you read my suggestion? Do you think being hungover, tired, etc. Exfects your opponents enjoyment? Bottom line this is a social contract and all your answers are what you think. Can you find a middle ground where everyone feels they are treted fairly? Lastly and I am asking this with all seriousness, do you think you might be looking at this through rose colored glasses because the person this thread was based on is a close personal friend?

This is a really big subject I have been deciding on whether is worth bringing up. At the risk of being jumped on I am going to just say it. The whole getting wasted at these major events is a massive problem. I wonder if Hulksmash can keep a straight face describing the game as juvenile and with toys for kids when he openly is aware of the rampant substance abuse some of these top players demonstrate at these tables. Want to get trashed in your room or out on the town? More power to you! Showing up to the event drunk, in the process of getting drunk or severely hung over and expecting your opponents to deal with it? Unacceptable. I mean, I didn't read anything about the NOVA being 21+ or a disclaimer that the event was for casuals to play beer hammer. Maybe it should. Otherwise, stop using it as an excuse. I'd like to think reasonable people can enjoy a drink with a new friend and be adults, drinking to access is moronic and poor form when there are minors playing there or watching.


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Audustum wrote:
The problem here is clashing perceptions. These events bill themselves at Grand Tournaments. They have rankings and awards. They also require that you bring your rules with you.

A lot of people who aren't the 'regulars' take these at face value and there's no reason they shouldn't. Every other game that is fielding these, including the increasingly common e-sports scene that these players are familiar with, uses the same terms and treats it like a strict competition. The 40k tournaments like NOVA aren't operating in a vacuum.

This is compounded because the winners of these events get talked about on blogs like LoL pros. Their lists get analyzed to the grain and when the players post on forums they talk about skill and "high level" playing. That all contributes to the perception more normal players have and are bringing.

So when they turn around and say "no big deal, this is brohammer and we're just trying to have a good time", it's not only an unintentional bait and switch on these people at large but it's also incredibly disingenuous. If we're having a relaxed brohammer tournament, say so and stop treating it like a serious competitive event. If it's a serious, competitive event, treat it like one.

And in case anyone wants to doubt GW is looking for serious, competitive events, just look around next tournament. We're getting shout casters. They have booths with cameras. Our 'high level' players (who increasingly just seem to be the regulars who showed up for years) participate in game balance discussions and testing with the developers (akin to Blizzard and Riot). GW is hungry for some of that e-sports money (even if it's not technically an e-sport). It's definitely the direction they want to go.

Thank you, this was brilliant and on the money. You articulated my thoughts much better then I could. The bolded part I want to reiterate again as this is a major concern to me. These players are having an increased say in how rules are developed and balanced and it troubles me that so many play sloppy hammer and try to bait and switch the narrative.

Thanks for posting Red Corsair, Lots of good points made. I was spending time with the family yesterday but I will try to catch up with the thread today.

 Peregrine wrote:
How can you "game" something that you have absolutely no ability to exploit? If your opponent brings all of their materials then you can't do anything. If you bring all of your materials then you have nothing to fear. What are you thinking of, some weird situation where a player hides their opponent's rulebook and then calls a judge to DQ them?

Not as strange as you might think.
Cheating happens if there is any monetary or acclaim reward to be had.
I think I had said that much earlier on, swipe their book and that is one less opponent, "simple".
You have not faced opponents where you were pretty sure their morals were questionable?
We avoid them when we can but they just love to go to these things where people have no choice but to play them.
I like how we all fall back on "gee-wiz it is only playing with little men toys!".
Competition, with monetary gain = many people doing whatever they think they can get away with.
So rules need to be manageable and must have consideration against being gamed.

Rampant cheating and shady characters are a strong reason why I stopped playing competitively.

To all the people deriding people for rules knowledge, and mistakes, I suggest going and watching tons of video battle reports/streamed games. Almost all of them have some sort of rules error during the course of play. I think the expectation that people at top tables are infallible is a ridiculous standard. Most events have very little on the line prize wise, the players are not professionals, which is why the esports comparison is laughable, there are not sponsored players, no one is paying their bills off being a great warhammer player.

The issue seems to be that players going to most of these big events are fine with the status quo (if hard cheating happens titles get forfeited, but mistakes are forgiven), while "fans" want it to be esports with DQs for misplay, without considering that 90% of the players are no where near even as invested in playing the game as those "top players", where the games they play at somewhere like NOVA might make up say 20% of their total games for the year. Guys like that will make mistakes, and then be DQ'd, but people don't think of those people they only think of the top guy on the stream that they see make an error.

I'm not sure that rampant DQs are going to have the outcome people here seem to think it will. People seem to think "punish people and they will not make mistakes in the future." I lean toward, "punish enough people, and they will stop coming because it isn't fun anymore". Unless you think the tournament circuit can run off of say 50 guys nationwide who play slow mistake free 40k, while the "casual competitive" players stay home because there is no point in going.

GW has shown no interest in having a serious Esports level competitive environment, they are interested in reaching out to an area of their fanbase that like competitive play, and on "free" marketing these events provide. 40k Streaming is a tiny market with very little money making potential.


From a TO standpoint the point of events is to get as many people to turn out and have a good time. That is what pays the bills, your winner being lauded by the community doesn't pay the bills.



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 auticus wrote:
Rampant cheating and shady characters are a strong reason why I stopped playing competitively.

IME there is no rampant cheating in competitive 40k.


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Also where are all the high level players posting on forums talking about their skills? I must have missed them I rarely see anyone who is a top player on forums.

@ Breng77, I'm at work so I don't have time to address your whole thread but please point out one person that is advocating DQing? I must have missed that.

 Peregrine wrote:
At absolute minimum all of their previous games, where they benefited from that significant mistake, should have been turned into losses and the player should have had a lot of judge attention for the rest of the tournament to make sure that they didn't try any similar exploits. If there was reasonable grounds for believing that the "mistake" was deliberate cheating then the proper response is nothing short of immediate disqualification and removal from the event.

His opponent questions the rule and the player assulting does not have the pertinent source material on hand.

Immediate disqualification. Sorry, but bringing your rules is a basic and universal requirement for tournaments. There is no excuse for not having a copy of all required rules, and it raises serious questions about how many other rules mistakes the player has been making.

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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Because having a copy of all your rules is a requirement of the tournament itself (NOVA) the player should have been disqualified from winning any of the prizes after this was found out.

Let him keep his scores (in case he is doing some overreaching multi-tourney scoring thing) and let him continue to play if he wants.

He should not be eligible for any prizes at the current tourney however (except for mabey painting prizes).

People should be DQd if they didn't bring their rules. Breng77 advocates anarchy.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Regardless of opinions on intent, the punishment for rules violations needs to be increased significantly from what it is. Rules mistakes happen, but it is deeply disturbing that they are consistently happening at TOP TABLES. Increased consequences will heavily incentivize players at all levels to make sure rules knowledge isn't a problem, and hopefully ensure that games by celebrity players will be examples rather than the target of jeering and a cause for disillusionment with GTs.

while not specific to DQ, increased consequences means what exactly? Losses of all previous games, and not prize support = DQ, just not banishment.


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 Primark G wrote:
People should be DQd if they didn't bring their rules. Breng77 advocates anarchy.

Hope you never misplace your rules....I'm not suggesting it not be encouraged, but if I travel a long way to an event and my bag with my books in it gets lost, I certainly would be pissed if I was told to go home. Now I would certainly try to obtain them as quickly as possible, but hard fast DQ rules will end events very fast.

@Breng77 did you read my suggestion on top of page 2?

You suggestion is reasonable,

I would probably rather go with a requirement that each player present their opponent with an army list and rules for their army prior to the game. If any thing is missing -1 point. I don't like the -5 if it doesn't come up unit the game begins because I feel like it will lead to potential abuse and gotcha moments where people rush people into the game and then ask a question hoping to catch someone not having the rules.

If each player is expected to hand their "books" and army list to the opponent who can then check rules at that point if they don't know what something does, or at worst be aware that opponent does not have rules. I personally have printed out the data sheets for my army and have them in a binder to allow for quick checking so I don't have to flip through the index. (I also have the index in my bag)

Also immediately available is too grey. "you had to go into your bag and dig out your rules, that isn't immediate."

I don't like the -5 if it doesn't come up unit the game begins because I feel like it will lead to potential abuse and gotcha moments where people rush people into the game and then ask a question hoping to catch someone not having the rules.

Makes sense, I'm cool with that.

Also immediately available is too grey

Agreed, can be changed to must have at your table or something.

Most people don't want people banned. I think Primark G was being sarcastic (could be wrong) and Peregrine always wants to ban everyone

But. if you have something like this in your rules (from Nova) there needs to be some kind of enforcement and most people think there should be.

The NOVA Open operates at 2000 Points. Please bring at least 9 printed copies of your list: 1 for the organizers and 8 for your
opponents. You must also bring published or copied printouts of any and all relevant rules for your army, including the core rules.

Like it our not there is a lot of rules refrencing during games and not having your rules does have the potential to slow down the game and effect your opponents.

I agree, I would like to add to that line, rulebooks/rules must be offered to opponent prior to the game with your army list.

Then have a portion on the score sheet for rules and army list provided that equates to being docked points if they do not.

Then once having the rules is established. Mistakes need to be questioned by opponent for anything to happen (since no other ref is available). If you do not have rules and If judge does not have copies of the rules, all rule debates should be ruled in favor of your opponent.

Thanks Breng77, I am 100% on board, what do other people think?


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 ChainswordHeretic wrote:
Thanks Breng77, I am 100% on board, what do other people think?

I agree, I would like to add to that line, rulebooks/rules must be offered to opponent prior to the game with your army list.

Nova has some pretty in-depth instructions and they could just expand on line one? I believe most of the big Tourneys have something to this effect?

5.2 How to Play – Mission Selection and Pre-Game Process
1. Swap lists with your opponent and study what you're up against
2. Privately select, note, and simultaneously reveal Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, and Relics
3. Privately select and note a Primary Mission from those available in the mission
4. Privately select and note 3 Secondary Missions from the universal pool (below)
5. Reveal your selected Primary and Secondary Missions to your opponent
6. Roll off a d6 with your opponent; the winner selects their Deployment Zone
7. Place any objectives required by the MIssion, beginning with the winner of #6
8. Begin alternating unit deployment, beginning with the loser of #6
9. Once deployment is over, roll off a d6; add one if you finished deploying first
10. The winner of #9 decides whether to go First or Second for each Battle Round
11. The Player going second may elect to roll a dice in an attempt to Seize the Initiative
12. The First Battle Round begins: High fives and handshakes!

 Red Corsair wrote:
I disagree on the mentality that things can't be done retro actively. Sure you can't rectify the errors for each player and game that was played however you can count the player in questions previous games as loses as well and simply let the next player in line in the rankings move into his spot prior to the infraction. This penalizes said player and lets someone else more deserving move on ahead, you can't fix it with the previous opponents but you can prevent them from moving on ahead of someone else more deserving. LEtting the player continue on with no repercussions tells everyone it's no big deal trying to play accurately, even if your called out your still moving forward. This method also still allows them to finish the tourny and play more games and place based on whatever their final record is. It's in the spirit of the game as far as I am concerned, if your their primarily to get several games in and have fun then slipping down the totem doesn't change any of that. If your there to take heads and win then this teaches you a valuable lesson.

I am not familiar with what is used at these events for pairings and scoring, is this manual or done through a software? I ask because I'm only familiar with WoW TCG and Magic in which there isn't a way to do this without causing larger issues.

Pairings are done based on the points, by retroactively going back, then that means opponents/players that have already happened would not have already happened. So if we're going back to make changes, then to be "fair" that means the player should play whom they should have actually played. This creates a cascade effect that doesn't benefit anyone.

Again it is "both" players responsibility to keep each other in check. When in question to involve a judge. By retroactively going back you remove the responsibility on the other player and instead put it solely on the person who made the mistake.

A game loss is no repercussions. Again it is "both" players responsibilities. Although no player can know all the rules (but we expect Judges too) isn't really an excuse. If you play competitively you know the rules, the meta or at least learn them. You make mistakes but that is what Judges are for. However, if you are unsure, you always ask, that is the point of having rules available. When rules aren't available then it falls within tournament procedures on how to handle that situation.

From the point of view you are stating, you are making the assumption that the player did it intentionally, removing responsibility from their opponent, and assuming that the rules mistake would have meant the opponent would have won the game.

Breng77 wrote:
Also where are all the high level players posting on forums talking about their skills? I must have missed them I rarely see anyone who is a top player on forums.

Uh, you have no means of knowing?
As in, most people use a handle not their real name here or in other places.
Plus, anyone I have met that has truly amazing skills typically say things like "I am just learning" and other irritatingly humble statements to that effect.

 Talizvar wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Also where are all the high level players posting on forums talking about their skills? I must have missed them I rarely see anyone who is a top player on forums.

Uh, you have no means of knowing?
As in, most people use a handle not their real name here or in other places.
Plus, anyone I have met that has truly amazing skills typically say things like "I am just learning" and other irritatingly humble statements to that effect.

SO then how are they "Their lists get analyzed to the grain and when the players post on forums they talk about skill and "high level" playing". Which seems to be a complaint about misplay, that these "high level players" talk them selves up on forums, and then play "brohammer"

also some high level players have handles that are known to the community, and I generally don't see them publishing tactics articles or pumping up their armies.

yermom
Target
Hulksmash
Ordo Sean
The Everliving

to point to a few, I mostly only see them on the tournament page posting about events, not writing up how skillful they are. Maybe I'm just missing it.

Breng77 I see it with other people discussing, not the players themselves. Invariably within the first two pages of discussion after the tourney is over you have some one wanting to know the lists for the top players. If you dig you'll get to the posts and blogs with this guy had this and did that etc. The big one for awhile was Blood of Kittens. So I think we see a lot of list dissemination and discussions of players and styles. I agree that it is usually not the players themselves doing it.

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:
Breng77 I see it with other people discussing, not the players themselves. Invariably within the first two pages of discussion after the tourney is over you have some one wanting to know the lists for the top players. If you dig you'll get to the posts and blogs with this guy had this and did that etc. The big one for awhile was Blood of Kittens. So I think we see a lot of list dissemination and discussions of players and styles. I agree that it is usually not the players themselves doing it.

Sure, other people discuss things, but that puts no impetus on the players to be perfect, or play better because others put them on a pedestal. If anything maybe if we accept that these players aren't perfect we can move a bit away from tons of net listing.

Sure, other people discuss things, but that puts no impetus on the players to be perfect, or play better because others put them on a pedestal. If anything maybe if we accept that these players aren't perfect we can move a bit away from tons of net listing.

I always saw it as people not wanting to put in the effort to get good at this game and they think using Bob's list from tournament A is going to make them some unbeatable winner. I don't think we will ever get away from that!

Breng77 wrote:

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:
Breng77 I see it with other people discussing, not the players themselves. Invariably within the first two pages of discussion after the tourney is over you have some one wanting to know the lists for the top players. If you dig you'll get to the posts and blogs with this guy had this and did that etc. The big one for awhile was Blood of Kittens. So I think we see a lot of list dissemination and discussions of players and styles. I agree that it is usually not the players themselves doing it.

Sure, other people discuss things, but that puts no impetus on the players to be perfect, or play better because others put them on a pedestal. If anything maybe if we accept that these players aren't perfect we can move a bit away from tons of net listing.

You are dramatically missing the point. These lists get talked about all over the internet. Just look at the 3 threads we have about Elysians all of the sudden. Frontline, Blood for Kittens and others publish results, lists and analysis on the current meta and counters. They aren't publishing these because no one reads them.

The point, however, is that you have a segment of the player base whose perceptions are way out of sync with what TO's are leaning on to excuse laxity. You say this is a small population I would say it's a big one, but there's no real way to tell at this point. We have no aggregate data. All we know is that they exist and there is a mismatch of perceptions.

I'm betting most TO's didn't know about that before, but 40k is a different world now. Now you know these people exist and their perceptions are fed by 40k's own social media apparatus both official and unofficial. Capitalizing on that by claiming competition and then operating brohammer is disingenuous and potentially dishonest.

Finally, you're crazy if you don't think there's money to be made in 40k 'b-sports'. You think Frontline or BOK exist because of tournament entry fees? It's ad revenue and ad revenue comes from eyeballs. What about the pseudo- professional bat rep channels flooding YouTube? Are you seriously thinking they aren't hoping (and succeeding) in making money?

No one thought e-sports would make money either. Now LoL players get put on paid contracts. They can make over 100k in ad revenue a year. Some teams are global in terms of players and team houses. OF COURSE 40k can make that kind of money if a serious competitive scene is built up. You're nuts to think that GW isn't considering that and salivating about somehow getting there. Even being HALF as successful would give them a new revenue stream on par with their entire plastic model line.

I don't play competitively, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

Generally speaking, rules and laws get made because a small percentage of "bad actors" screw things up for everybody else. They should be designed to disincentivize bad behavior without placing too much of a burden on the rest of the population. Also, they should not open up new opportunities for "bad actors" to game the system.

As someone mentioned above, strongly enforcing and penalizing missing rulebooks opens up incentive to steal books. The term for this is "Perverse Incentive".

Likewise, I think sportsmanship scoring just presents another way for "bad actors" to game the system. Given that sportsmanship can be much more subjective than concrete rules, I would expect to see it heavily abused. It would be hard to find a balance between scoring sportsmanship highly enough that it seriously affects the outcome of tournament standings, and low enough that the incentive to cheat is minimized.

As such, I think sportsmanship should be scored, but as a separate category that doesn't affect tournament rankings. (Bragging rights and kudos only?) I think this would encourage bringing books and lists, and studying all rules, as well as give other players a forewarning if their opponent consistently scores low in sportsmanship. "Caveat Player".

 Hulksmash wrote:
On the subject of gaming materials how would you handle someone who has the resources, traveled to an event, left them back at an inaccessible location but if something is needed can obtain from others. The example above is what actually happened to me at nova as I left my gk book at a friend's house 30 minutes away after flying into dc from Minnesota.

I feel like the book thing goes gotcha real quick. Is it at the table? What if you left it at a previous table? Are you then hit with the dq stick. This is just a another loophole more people will use to hurt than help. If you can get the info at the event (as was done) call it a wash.

Now regarding the rules mistake there is simply no way to retroactively determine games. In some sense as much as it sucks it's up to us to know or question our opponents rules. At most eve ts you're lucky to have 1 judge per 15 tables. This isn't a sport. Dont treat it like one. It's a community event. People question the rules for my stuff all the time and I answer them politely because I expect it. If something seems weird I check it while my opponent does it and then we reset if needed so as to not slow the game down.

Honestly the only taken out of the win path deal breakers for me are; loaded dice, army list changing, slow play, and list mistakes. The rest should be dealt with by grown men in an appropriate way as was handled here. The comm unity sorts itself and known cheaters or dodgy players get reps quick. I will say some active prevention from said players entering events period would be more welcome but attendance is king.

Great post!! How many times have you played someone in a tournament event and their attitude and game play ruined the game for you? if the rules are readily available then this should be moot point, as well as any judge should know the majority of rules to make informed decisions. As someone brought up in the previous thread this discussion was going on in, this was a good point as well, traveling expenses, entry fee as well as a bunch of other out of pocket cost items make "competitive" play a different beast then you and your buddies at your local game store. Keeping this in mind there should be a punishment for playing your rules wrong for multiple games. But to be fair it was a new codex and the wording on a rule can easily be mixed up. Throwing around claims of "cheater" for a long time player that has won multiple tournies is extreme. Treating each other with basic respect should always be a goal when playing these games. Add to the fact you just played X amount of games for 9 horus and you are tired and grumpy (losing a game will do that) sometimes its easy to reply back with a lack of tack. Great post and discussion that actually did not turn into name calling btw.

Audustum wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:
Breng77 I see it with other people discussing, not the players themselves. Invariably within the first two pages of discussion after the tourney is over you have some one wanting to know the lists for the top players. If you dig you'll get to the posts and blogs with this guy had this and did that etc. The big one for awhile was Blood of Kittens. So I think we see a lot of list dissemination and discussions of players and styles. I agree that it is usually not the players themselves doing it.

Sure, other people discuss things, but that puts no impetus on the players to be perfect, or play better because others put them on a pedestal. If anything maybe if we accept that these players aren't perfect we can move a bit away from tons of net listing.

You are dramatically missing the point. These lists get talked about all over the internet. Just look at the 3 threads we have about Elysians all of the sudden. Frontline, Blood for Kittens and others publish results, lists and analysis on the current meta and counters. They aren't publishing these because no one reads them.

The point, however, is that you have a segment of the player base whose perceptions are way out of sync with what TO's are leaning on to excuse laxity. You say this is a small population I would say it's a big one, but there's no real way to tell at this point. We have no aggregate data. All we know is that they exist and there is a mismatch of perceptions.

I'm betting most TO's didn't know about that before, but 40k is a different world now. Now you know these people exist and their perceptions are fed by 40k's own social media apparatus both official and unofficial. Capitalizing on that by claiming competition and then operating brohammer is disingenuous and potentially dishonest.

Finally, you're crazy if you don't think there's money to be made in 40k 'b-sports'. You think Frontline or BOK exist because of tournament entry fees? It's ad revenue and ad revenue comes from eyeballs. What about the pseudo- professional bat rep channels flooding YouTube? Are you seriously thinking they aren't hoping (and succeeding) in making money?

No one thought e-sports would make money either. Now LoL players get put on paid contracts. They can make over 100k in ad revenue a year. Some teams are global in terms of players and team houses. OF COURSE 40k can make that kind of money if a serious competitive scene is built up. You're nuts to think that GW isn't considering that and salivating about somehow getting there. Even being HALF as successful would give them a new revenue stream on par with their entire plastic model line.

You really think frontline gaming is making most of their money (or even a large portion) from ad revenue? Do you think
boK pays tasytytastes bills? I would argue that you are dreaming. It might be a nice side income for some people in the hobby but it doesn't pay enough for very many. 40k is much too small a market for e-sports to make big bucks. I mean the number of players that attend tournaments is minuscule (compared to things like LOL or MTG our biggest events are comparable to many local tournaments in those events. And even fewer people watch the streams. Less than 500 people were watching the NOVA streams when I was on, that is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Games are too slow and too long for them to be super popular.

Tournaments have led no one astray they try to attract all types, but their focus will always be on your middle of the road players because that is where most people are. Sure sites break down the meta, but honestly there isn't a ton of money in it ask torrent of fire, or even best coast pairings, people won't pay for the info very often. Sure people like to know, but to most it just isn't that important.

I'd say we're starting to deviate into the "why" rather than the "how" of what to do. On the "why", I'll ask the question again: what do you expect to happen if you forget your models at a GT? It's the same situation if you forget your rules...in fact my rules and models are in the same travel case.

As far as "how", well that depends on what you want as a standard of play at the top tables, because how you regulate those sets the standard for the lower brackets and other events that model themselves after NOVA, Adepticon, and others. Do you want perfect (or mostly perfect) games played to determine a champion? Or is winning alone the most important thing? I think that the outrage over this (and previous incidents) is evidence that a significant number of players want the game played right, and "celebrity 40k" needs to realize that like it or not they are being held to a higher standard and are expected to know the game as well as they purportedly play it.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I'd say we're starting to deviate into the "why" rather than the "how" of what to do. On the "why", I'll ask the question again: what do you expect to happen if you forget your models at a GT? It's the same situation if you forget your rules...in fact my rules and models are in the same travel case.

As far as "how", well that depends on what you want as a standard of play at the top tables, because how you regulate those sets the standard for the lower brackets and other events that model themselves after NOVA, Adepticon, and others. Do you want perfect (or mostly perfect) games played to determine a champion? Or is winning alone the most important thing? I think that the outrage over this (and previous incidents) is evidence that a significant number of players want the game played right, and "celebrity 40k" needs to realize that like it or not they are being held to a higher standard and are expected to know the game as well as they purportedly play it.

I don't think that there really is outrage, people aren't boycotting events in noticeable numbers due to any of said incidents. So there are just people carrying on on Internet forums, about which "celebrity 40k" doesn't really care about. If attendance at events were to drop due to things like this or if the people that seem to want strict events ran their own events and those were more highly attended and actually successfully produced "perfect games" or people start paying 40k "pros" to play this game I think you would see people start to care. Until then events in 40k will continue to be "casually competitive" hobby events.

Breng77 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:
Breng77 I see it with other people discussing, not the players themselves. Invariably within the first two pages of discussion after the tourney is over you have some one wanting to know the lists for the top players. If you dig you'll get to the posts and blogs with this guy had this and did that etc. The big one for awhile was Blood of Kittens. So I think we see a lot of list dissemination and discussions of players and styles. I agree that it is usually not the players themselves doing it.

Sure, other people discuss things, but that puts no impetus on the players to be perfect, or play better because others put them on a pedestal. If anything maybe if we accept that these players aren't perfect we can move a bit away from tons of net listing.

You are dramatically missing the point. These lists get talked about all over the internet. Just look at the 3 threads we have about Elysians all of the sudden. Frontline, Blood for Kittens and others publish results, lists and analysis on the current meta and counters. They aren't publishing these because no one reads them.

The point, however, is that you have a segment of the player base whose perceptions are way out of sync with what TO's are leaning on to excuse laxity. You say this is a small population I would say it's a big one, but there's no real way to tell at this point. We have no aggregate data. All we know is that they exist and there is a mismatch of perceptions.

I'm betting most TO's didn't know about that before, but 40k is a different world now. Now you know these people exist and their perceptions are fed by 40k's own social media apparatus both official and unofficial. Capitalizing on that by claiming competition and then operating brohammer is disingenuous and potentially dishonest.

Finally, you're crazy if you don't think there's money to be made in 40k 'b-sports'. You think Frontline or BOK exist because of tournament entry fees? It's ad revenue and ad revenue comes from eyeballs. What about the pseudo- professional bat rep channels flooding YouTube? Are you seriously thinking they aren't hoping (and succeeding) in making money?

No one thought e-sports would make money either. Now LoL players get put on paid contracts. They can make over 100k in ad revenue a year. Some teams are global in terms of players and team houses. OF COURSE 40k can make that kind of money if a serious competitive scene is built up. You're nuts to think that GW isn't considering that and salivating about somehow getting there. Even being HALF as successful would give them a new revenue stream on par with their entire plastic model line.

You really think frontline gaming is making most of their money (or even a large portion) from ad revenue? Do you think
boK pays tasytytastes bills? I would argue that you are dreaming. It might be a nice side income for some people in the hobby but it doesn't pay enough for very many. 40k is much too small a market for e-sports to make big bucks. I mean the number of players that attend tournaments is minuscule (compared to things like LOL or MTG our biggest events are comparable to many local tournaments in those events. And even fewer people watch the streams. Less than 500 people were watching the NOVA streams when I was on, that is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Games are too slow and too long for them to be super popular.

Tournaments have led no one astray they try to attract all types, but their focus will always be on your middle of the road players because that is where most people are. Sure sites break down the meta, but honestly there isn't a ton of money in it ask torrent of fire, or even best coast pairings, people won't pay for the info very often. Sure people like to know, but to most it just isn't that important.

All of the e-sports started the same way and had people just like you saying the exact same thing. They were all wrong. Sure, 40k isn't guaranteed to get there, but it's definitely trying and the further it gets the worse these clashes with TO's and the perceptions of players is going to get.

Your whole premise of people boycotting is faulty too. Obviously, some people ARE being misled or we wouldn't have threads and complaints. We can't know how much it's costing tournaments because we don't have data on people who don't attend and why they didn't go. You're also completely discounting people who might be upset by TO behavior but will still attend anyway. I fall into this category. I'm just changing my expectations and no longer giving 'high level' players the benefit of actually knowing what they're talking about.

Maybe someone will make a different tournament, maybe they won't. Not just anyone can make a large, competitive event. It takes a lot of initial investment money and then you're fighting attendance against the other tournaments. We'll have to see, but to try and claim everyone is misled by the current system needs to go do that is not realistic or a good argument.

Audustum wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:
Breng77 I see it with other people discussing, not the players themselves. Invariably within the first two pages of discussion after the tourney is over you have some one wanting to know the lists for the top players. If you dig you'll get to the posts and blogs with this guy had this and did that etc. The big one for awhile was Blood of Kittens. So I think we see a lot of list dissemination and discussions of players and styles. I agree that it is usually not the players themselves doing it.

Sure, other people discuss things, but that puts no impetus on the players to be perfect, or play better because others put them on a pedestal. If anything maybe if we accept that these players aren't perfect we can move a bit away from tons of net listing.

You are dramatically missing the point. These lists get talked about all over the internet. Just look at the 3 threads we have about Elysians all of the sudden. Frontline, Blood for Kittens and others publish results, lists and analysis on the current meta and counters. They aren't publishing these because no one reads them.

The point, however, is that you have a segment of the player base whose perceptions are way out of sync with what TO's are leaning on to excuse laxity. You say this is a small population I would say it's a big one, but there's no real way to tell at this point. We have no aggregate data. All we know is that they exist and there is a mismatch of perceptions.

I'm betting most TO's didn't know about that before, but 40k is a different world now. Now you know these people exist and their perceptions are fed by 40k's own social media apparatus both official and unofficial. Capitalizing on that by claiming competition and then operating brohammer is disingenuous and potentially dishonest.

Finally, you're crazy if you don't think there's money to be made in 40k 'b-sports'. You think Frontline or BOK exist because of tournament entry fees? It's ad revenue and ad revenue comes from eyeballs. What about the pseudo- professional bat rep channels flooding YouTube? Are you seriously thinking they aren't hoping (and succeeding) in making money?

No one thought e-sports would make money either. Now LoL players get put on paid contracts. They can make over 100k in ad revenue a year. Some teams are global in terms of players and team houses. OF COURSE 40k can make that kind of money if a serious competitive scene is built up. You're nuts to think that GW isn't considering that and salivating about somehow getting there. Even being HALF as successful would give them a new revenue stream on par with their entire plastic model line.

You really think frontline gaming is making most of their money (or even a large portion) from ad revenue? Do you think
boK pays tasytytastes bills? I would argue that you are dreaming. It might be a nice side income for some people in the hobby but it doesn't pay enough for very many. 40k is much too small a market for e-sports to make big bucks. I mean the number of players that attend tournaments is minuscule (compared to things like LOL or MTG our biggest events are comparable to many local tournaments in those events. And even fewer people watch the streams. Less than 500 people were watching the NOVA streams when I was on, that is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Games are too slow and too long for them to be super popular.

Tournaments have led no one astray they try to attract all types, but their focus will always be on your middle of the road players because that is where most people are. Sure sites break down the meta, but honestly there isn't a ton of money in it ask torrent of fire, or even best coast pairings, people won't pay for the info very often. Sure people like to know, but to most it just isn't that important.

All of the e-sports started the same way and had people just like you saying the exact same thing. They were all wrong. Sure, 40k isn't guaranteed to get there, but it's definitely trying and the further it gets the worse these clashes with TO's and the perceptions of players is going to get.

Your whole premise of people boycotting is faulty too. Obviously, some people ARE being misled or we wouldn't have threads and complaints. We can't know how much it's costing tournaments because we don't have data on people who don't attend and why they didn't go. You're also completely discounting people who might be upset by TO behavior but will still attend anyway. I fall into this category. I'm just changing my expectations and no longer giving 'high level' players the benefit of actually knowing what they're talking about.

Maybe someone will make a different tournament, maybe they won't. Not just anyone can make a large, competitive event. It takes a lot of initial investment money and then you're fighting attendance against the other tournaments. We'll have to see, but to try and claim everyone is misled by the current system needs to go do that is not realistic or a good argument.

No not ever e-sport started out with such a niche fanbase as 40k. Things like MTG had a much bigger following prior to e-sports even being a thing. Same with basically any major video game. Not every e-sport faces the challenge of having games re hiring tons of rules knowledge just to watch, and very difficult games to follow. Not ever report has games lasting 3 hours. Just a quick scan of say You tube channels about wargaming, the largest (Mini-wargamming -hardly a home for mistake free competitive level play) has just under 270,000 subscribers. That is the biggest channel by almost 100,000 subscribers (Warhammer TV has ~180,000 also not a bastion of mistake free high level batreps.), places like frontline have 15,000. If I look at LOL, I quickly find 5 channels with over 1 million subscribers. What this means is that a single LOL channel (the top one has 8 million+ subs) has more subscribers than basically all 40k channels combined, and probably would have about 4 million+ subscriptions to spare in that comparison. MTG is closer in that comparison with the top channel I see having 300,000 subs, but there are more channels with high subs. If I look at twitch (live streaming) FLG has just under 11,000 subs, Wahammer TV has ~28,000. In LOL the first channel I find in my seach has 1.9million. Magic really isn't doing great in this area either. So this tells me that if you want to make "money" in 40k videos you need to focus not on competitive gaming, but on hobby, news, and fluff. SO it seems to me that "most" people want to have fun with the game, not turn it into an e-sport.

40k is not trying to get there, if it were GW would be running the events, publishing their own packets that would be required for official tournament status. Uniform missions would need to be a thing. Unless you knew the NOVA missions it was hard to know what was happening on the GW NOVA stream.
Boycotting premise is not faulty because if it were that big a deal to people they need to not show up and not pay to support events that don't reflect their desire for the hobby. We know exactly what it is costing many events, nothing they sell out, so any people not attending couldn't do so if they wanted too. Nor is the expectation for people to start events if they want something different. I would argue that almost any adult who is in this hobby could start an event if they thought it was important (you start small and rent a small hall that has table, build a bunch of cheap terrain and go for it.). As for fighting attendance again you start small and if the event gets known as the premier competitive event the growth will come and pay for itself. Especially if all the games are as desired by many (based on your claim)harshly officiated and mistake free.

In the end though if all it means is you revere the top players less, I pretty sure they'll live with that. TOs certainly don't care about that as long as you are attending, and a majority of people at the event are having a blast.