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I've got a quick question to ask before I play in my tournament tomorrow. When you make a list to play (in a tournament or whatever) do you have to specify in your list what relics or artefacts you are taking on your characters? Also, if you want to use the stratagem that allows you to take multiple relics or artefacts in the same list, do you have to include that in your list also? I ask because I'm planning to run a World Eaters/Alpha Legion list and I'm wanting to run the Intoxicating Elixir on an AL Slaanesh Prince, as well as possibly the Brass Collar of Borghaster on a WE character. The Brass Collar is somewhat situational and I might not bother with it if I'm facing something without psykers (like Tau or Necrons). Since I would have to use the stratagem and spend a CP to take it in addition to the Elixir, do I have to declare it in my list or can I make that decision on a game-by-game basis? I don't have my codex handy as I write this, so sorry if the answer's right there.

RAW, the Relic that you get from your Warlord has to be on your list. The relic you get from spending CPs is added during pregame setup, and thus has no such requirement.
Most tournaments will have their own ruling.

When it comes to a tournament, you need to talk with the tournament organizer as its their call.

Heh. What a fun tournament it would be if your opponent said "Surprise! I have the Black Mace of Death that automatically inflects 10 mortal wounds on all units within 6" when he kills a model!" Well, if I had known that, I wouldn't have recklessly charged your Warlord trying to get the Slay the Warlord objective. Or how about "I have the Shrouding Curtain of Rainbow Hues on that Wave Serpent! All shots from greater then 6" away automatically miss!" Well, if I had known that, I wouldn't have just shot 4 Lascannon at it from 30" away...

Yeah, playing in such a tournament wouldn't be much fun.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Heh. What a fun tournament it would be if your opponent said "Surprise! I have the Black Mace of Death that automatically inflects 10 mortal wounds on all units within 6" when he kills a model!" Well, if I had known that, I wouldn't have recklessly charged your Warlord trying to get the Slay the Warlord objective. Or how about "I have the Shrouding Curtain of Rainbow Hues on that Wave Serpent! All shots from greater then 6" away automatically miss!" Well, if I had known that, I wouldn't have just shot 4 Lascannon at it from 30" away...

Yeah, playing in such a tournament wouldn't be much fun.

Uh... What? I'm genuinely confused by your point here.
Firstly: Relics don't do that, or anything even remotely close to that.
Secondly: Nobody is talking about keeping your relics or gear secret. We're talking about not adding them until the pregame. You'd still have to declare what you're bringing.

Did you... Read the original post?

Waaaghpower wrote:
RAW, the Relic that you get from your Warlord has to be on your list. The relic you get from spending CPs is added during pregame setup, and thus has no such requirement.
Most tournaments will have their own ruling.

ALL Relics must be noted on your army roster: "Write down any Chapter Relics your characters may have on your army roster" & "Write down any Artefacts of Chaos your characters may have on your army roster"

beast_gts wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
RAW, the Relic that you get from your Warlord has to be on your list. The relic you get from spending CPs is added during pregame setup, and thus has no such requirement.
Most tournaments will have their own ruling.

ALL Relics must be noted on your army roster: "Write down any Chapter Relics your characters may have on your army roster" & "Write down any Artefacts of Chaos your characters may have on your army roster"

But the Strategem that gives relics happens in the pregame, not when writing your roster. You can't write it down because you don't have it yet.

Listbuilding is also pregame, or "before the battle" as the Stratagems say.

Check with your TO, but all the tournaments I've been to you're required to write them down.

I get where you're coming from Waaaghpower, but as the Relics rule says "any", how can you have a valid list unless you use the Stratagem when listbuilding?

Note that some weapons replace one of the character’s existing
weapons. Where this is the case, you must, if you are playing a
matched play game or are otherwise using points values, still pay
the cost of the weapon that is being replaced. Write down any
Artefacts of Chaos your characters may have on your army roster.
- Second Paragraph of the Artifacts of Choas Rules... sorry, I mean Artefacts.

The Stratagem in question simply opens additional 'slots' in your Army, a specific Exception for the 'one per Army' clause found within Artefacts of Chaos. It does not change how we go about calculating those costs, which has it's own paragraph within the Rule's that has been cut-and-pasted above. Within that Paragraph is the requirement that any Write down any Artefacts of Chaos your characters may have on your army roster, and I do like the fact the typo was in the part I could to quote directly as the Restriction we need to obey. We are still required to pay a cost for including this piece of war-gear, though it has such a round-about way doing so, and it is heavily implied we have to tell our opponents which characters are wielding them as well.

Personally, I do not like the whole situation... I am stamping 'broken from Written' on it and walking away....

I'm right now at this little problem:
How do you evoke the Stratagem before you create the Detachment?


The only solution I can think of is to evoke the Stratagem before you write the list.
Sequencing will allow it, but the Stratagem requires you to have a Chaos Space Marine Detachment to unlock it....

Note a caveat here, though: "May".
Not 'Any Artifacts that your characters have", but "that your characters may have".

So, you have to note down what you may be bringing, but you don't have to decide until pregame. (It's a little cheesy, but the only RAW way to play the relic Strategem.)

There is an easier solution, but it is one we can not use:
You only encounter this problem if you can not modify your list after it has been created.


In a normal game it would be entirely possible to simply evoke this Rule, add some more things to your list afterwards and show that it still complies with Point-Limits and every other Restriction raised.
However, how many Tournaments allow you to adjust your list right after you sit down with your opponent?

 JinxDragon wrote:
However, how many Tournaments allow you to adjust your list right after you sit down with your opponent?

That's what TamwulfMade is getting at - you go to the assigned table and exchange lists with your opponent, but then once the game starts your opponent tells you they're actually running a different list...

 JinxDragon wrote:
There is an easier solution, but it is one we can not use:
You only encounter this problem if you can not modify your list after it has been created.


In a normal game it would be entirely possible to simply evoke this Rule, add some more things to your list afterwards and show that it still complies with Point-Limits and every other Restriction raised.
However, how many Tournaments allow you to adjust your list right after you sit down with your opponent?

That works too, to the same effect. (Getting to pick relics after seeing your opponent's army.)

Contact your TO. See what they say.

But yes, it's fair enough in a friendly game - provided they tell me before deployment :-)

Indeed, every opponent would raise complaints to the Tournament Organizers if we tried.

That problem is why I begun the experiment, to see if we could create a legal list using this Stratagem prior to handing it to the Tournament Organizer. I ended up concluding that it is possible, but the outcome is very wonky due to timing issues involving how we access Stratagems in the first place. We are required to have the Detachment listed first, so the only real 'complies with everything' answer I can come up with requires additional detachments - evoking a Rule half way through list building (if even possible) - and then adding additional Detachments with said Artefacts. It is a really complicated answer to a problem which exists only due to additional Restrictions being added by the Tournament Organizers. Thus I threw it all in the bin at this point and simply concluded: their problem - Let them solve it.

It is definitely something every organizer will have to address, as that is a very useful Stratagem.

Mostly the people who don't like play armies that don't have a codex but believe me when I say they'll be changing their tune soon enough.