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So i have been playing vs a friend of mine who has an evil dark eldar army full of vechicles:
2000 points
3 x razorwing jetfighter
3x ravagers
3x vipers
3x transports
and one weaver

he has 14 - 16 dark lances in there incouding some deepstriking infantry on wings.

last game i lost about 60% of my army(space marines)in his first shooting round and i conceded.

i was using a land raider crusader
an iroclad dreadnought with huricane bolters and sismic hammah
5 deepstriking termies with cyclone launcher and a deep striking librarian termie
3 incesors
10 intersesors
5 hellblasters
1 devastator squad with 2 lascannons and 2 missiles
1 primaris chapter ancient
2 primaris liutenants
1 primaris captain in gravis armor (with indomitus armor)
1 apothecary.

he blowed up my dread..left the land raider with 2 wounds delete my devastators and hellblasters . and then the game started.. i just did 2 wounds in one vechicle and conceded!

heeeeeeeeeelp!!!

most of his weapons are 2 wounding so i was removing a primaris per lost save...:( shall i switch to tactical marines insted of primaris? go 3 devastator squads? what to do? i dont have options for more vechicles cause i am an infantry guy when it comes to space marines... i can take a rhino or a razorback or a drop pod (and the crusader ofc) and thats it

You need more bodies. Small elite armies suffer hard against that many dark lances.

Amoras wrote:
You need more bodies. Small elite armies suffer hard against that many dark lances.

gonna need more help from this.! what kind of troops?


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I am thinking about 2 -3 devastator squads 2 missile 2 las canon combo maybe 1 all 4 missiles? with armorim cherubs and maybe 20 tacticals with 2 missile and 2 melta guns?

and 10 starnguard in drop pod with? (what?) all combi weapons?

SIKAMIKA wrote:

Amoras wrote:
You need more bodies. Small elite armies suffer hard against that many dark lances.

gonna need more help from this.! what kind of troops?


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I am thinking about 2 -3 devastator squads 2 missile 2 las canon combo maybe 1 all 4 missiles? with armorim cherubs and maybe 20 tacticals with 2 missile and 2 melta guns?

and 10 starnguard in drop pod with? (what?) all combi weapons?

For Marines, its an uphill battle.
I'd take an infantry based army. Dark lances kill vehicles too easily. This has not changed from the previous editions.
In previous editions, heavy bolters were very useful. But this has changed a bit as the damage output of heavy bolters is too low unless you have a missive number of heavy bolters.

As a dark eldar player I think you need more tanks. 14-16 lances are not that scary if you have 5-6 armored units plus eventually some primaris which can soak the poisoned shots quite well.

Razorbacks, land raiders, stormravens, dreads... all good units. Devastators with lascannons in cover are also very helpful and they should be out of range of the majority of your opponent's firepower in turn 1. DE vehicles are paper things while SM ones are way more tough, bring 8-10 lascannons and/or some multimeltas to deal with them.

If you with a drop pod just load it with multimeltas, they can cripple DE vehicles without problems.

What units are embarked in transports in that DE list?

I have 3 inceptors with 6 heavy bolters deep striking for that cause...but they seem luckluster cause they dont get benefits from captain and liutenant.


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 Blackie wrote:
As a dark eldar player I think you need more tanks. 14-16 lances are not that scary if you have 5-6 armored units plus eventually some primaris which can soak the poisoned shots quite well.

Razorbacks, land raiders, stormravens, dreads... all good units. Devastators with lascannons in cover are also very helpful and they should be out of range of the majority of your opponent's firepower in turn 1. DE vehicles are paper things while SM ones are way more tough, bring 8-10 lascannons and/or some multimeltas to deal with them.

If you with a drop pod just load it with multimeltas, they can cripple DE vehicles without problems.

What units are embarked in transports in that DE list?

He has just 5 kabalite wariors with 1 dark lance...he never uses them or disembarks them...just to fill the 3 troop requirement.

well his air units have 72 inch movement so i am bever out of range...he can even "snipe" my characters behind my troop lines cause he simply flies behind me 1rst round and kills the hellblasters..

dread are a no go for me cause he always blows them up before i get a chance to play them.

1: play space wolves
2:charge
3:????
4:profit!!!!!

hobojebus wrote:
1: play space wolves
2:charge
3:????
4:profit!!!!!

good luck chasing around the table his whole flying army with 72 movemnt!

this army is anchargable!

SIKAMIKA wrote:
I have 3 inceptors with 6 heavy bolters deep striking for that cause...but they seem luckluster cause they dont get benefits from captain and liutenant.


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 Blackie wrote:
As a dark eldar player I think you need more tanks. 14-16 lances are not that scary if you have 5-6 armored units plus eventually some primaris which can soak the poisoned shots quite well.

Razorbacks, land raiders, stormravens, dreads... all good units. Devastators with lascannons in cover are also very helpful and they should be out of range of the majority of your opponent's firepower in turn 1. DE vehicles are paper things while SM ones are way more tough, bring 8-10 lascannons and/or some multimeltas to deal with them.

If you with a drop pod just load it with multimeltas, they can cripple DE vehicles without problems.

What units are embarked in transports in that DE list?

He has just 5 kabalite wariors with 1 dark lance...he never uses them or disembarks them...just to fill the 3 troop requirement.

well his air units have 72 inch movement so i am bever out of range...he can even "snipe" my characters behind my troop lines cause he simply flies behind me 1rst round and kills the hellblasters..

dread are a no go for me cause he always blows them up before i get a chance to play them.

I don't know how to fix that, I hate primaris and I think they shouldn't be brought in competitive lists but the DE list IS a semi-competitive, if not competitive, built. If you want to face that kind of lists you can go full footsloggers but you'll need tons of scouts (at least 15) and tons of devastators plus other stuff like jump pack dudes, or even termies with several shields. Primaris will go down easily against blasters and lances if you don't have many other vehicles.

18 lances on average will kill just a land raider or two smaller vehicles at most. But being fired by paper things after 1-2 turns the DE player can easily lose a lot of his anti tank firepower. That's why a list with 3-4 razorbacks, a land raider, and/or a predator and a stormraven plus other stuff could perform well against those DE. A SM list centered around primaris will likely struggle no matter what, you should change your list a lot to face those DE, or your opponent should do that in order to play a balanced match. There are no small fixes you can do to compete with him.


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SIKAMIKA wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
1: play space wolves
2:charge
3:????
4:profit!!!!!

good luck chasing around the table his whole flying army with 72 movemnt!

this army is anchargable!

SW can do that, just bring bikes, blood claws in rhinos/land raider crusader, TWC, their flyer with wulfen embarked, deep striking terminators. I play both SW and DE and I can assure you that the dark space elves can be countered by the wolves.

But you play a SM army so switching to SW is not a solution.

fight flyer with flyer?

I don't have stats to hand for black pixie flyers but if, as the DE player said, the vehicles don't match in toughness then it may well be that the flyers are similar.

Either way, you need to distract whatever it is that is destroying your army turn 1 so that it gives you a chance to hit back.

I would give the landscape a bit of consideration, vehicle based armies like wide open spaces, troops like confinement so consider what board you are playing on and tweak your list to match.

Also, try and keep as much off the board (troops in vehicles, deep strikers, jump pack assault) so it can't be killed turn 1.

As someone mentioned, you need more bodies, if he has a load of D2 weapons, load up with 1 wound models, if it's going to be 1 shot killed your not losing anything.

Could always bring a pair of the AA tanks. They'll be hurting the skimmers and flyers equally.

All de vehicles are T6, so anything with S6 or better is going to kick grot.

Pred with pred autocannons and twin laz on the side, razorbacks with assault cannons, dreds with dual auto cannons, and land speeders with assault / melta would all do well if your trying to match vehicle for vehicles. But I don't think that's the way to go about this.

Missile launchers in dev squads (or plasma cannons would be better) (be sure to give them some extra bodies to soke up some incoming fire), tactical marines with plasma guns / combi plasma, scouts with missile launchers and bolters, and don't understate the power of mass consideration of bolter fire.

Your issue is that the army you have as others have said is elite focused, and it can't be. Take as many 1 wound models as you can and giggle as he at best kills 16 marines a turn which is what, 200 points? Assuming he hits and wounds with all shots which isn't going to happen.

Or if you want something to be tough and have multi wounds in the squad (terms) assault terms with storm shields. They are expensive but then your still mitigating those dark lances. Base numbers it takes 6 shots to kill 2 terms and they will destroy something if they get into close combat with it. Major overkill.

Good luck, hope you can get a viable list with out spending a lot. Good news is basic marines are silly cheap on ebay right now, got 40 for 35$ the other day.

Azuza001 wrote:
All de vehicles are T6, so anything with S6 or better is going to kick grot.

Pred with pred autocannons and twin laz on the side, razorbacks with assault cannons, dreds with dual auto cannons, and land speeders with assault / melta would all do well if your trying to match vehicle for vehicles. But I don't think that's the way to go about this.

Missile launchers in dev squads (or plasma cannons would be better) (be sure to give them some extra bodies to soke up some incoming fire), tactical marines with plasma guns / combi plasma, scouts with missile launchers and bolters, and don't understate the power of mass consideration of bolter fire.

Your issue is that the army you have as others have said is elite focused, and it can't be. Take as many 1 wound models as you can and giggle as he at best kills 16 marines a turn which is what, 200 points? Assuming he hits and wounds with all shots which isn't going to happen.

Or if you want something to be tough and have multi wounds in the squad (terms) assault terms with storm shields. They are expensive but then your still mitigating those dark lances. Base numbers it takes 6 shots to kill 2 terms and they will destroy something if they get into close combat with it. Major overkill.

Good luck, hope you can get a viable list with out spending a lot. Good news is basic marines are silly cheap on ebay right now, got 40 for 35$ the other day.

Hey thanks for the reply...as of minimarines i have tons... i just wanted to switch to primaris lists...

i can bring 3 x 10 tacticals with 2 missiles 1 multymelta and 3 combi-anythings
2 x 8 devastators with 4 missiles 2 lasscanon and 2 plasma canon
1 comand squad 5 dudes with multy-anythings
2 x terminator squads - cyclone and assault canon... - i already tried assault termies but they never reach anything to charge vs dark eldar...he keeps his distance...even if i deep strike
3 inceptors with heavy bolters for moar dakka
1 captain 1 or 2 liutenants chapter banner and apothecary ofc

or i also have an alternative of 1 drop pod with 10 sternguard full of multy anythings (mainly plasma and melta)

Azuza001 wrote:
All de vehicles are T6, so anything with S6 or better is going to kick grot.

Actually only the two flyers and the ravagers are T6, venoms and raiders are T5. Ok, they've got a 5+ invuln, but they really are paper things and vehicles once they're damaged they also lose accuracy. Cripple 2-3 vehicles (the ravagers first, then the flyers) and the DE list is countered.

As a DE player, ive been against 3 Storm Ravens and 3 units of Devastators and table him (multi-times)

You need LOTS of guys, if you have 6-8 units only, DE can use Lances very easily to focus them down very fast.

Having 5-6 transports with some good dakka (autocannons, SB's HB's etc..) not high cost thigs like ML's, but something that you can just pour wounds onto.

A T5 4+ save vehicle is easier to kill with 60pts of HB's compare to 60pts of ML's

DE has a problem in 8th with Horde armies, due to weak vehicles and lack of "good" AI (poison is not good, splinter cannons took a big nerf and DE lots ALL TL from vehicles for the dudes in side, DE basically lost all Range AI, or heavily nerfed).

I fear 120 walking SM's with HB's, PG's SB' etc... more so than 6 Storm Ravens. a Dis Cannon/Lance can only kill 1 or 3 SM at once, and 5 poison rifles will on average kill 1 (its actually something like 0.8 and 1.6 within rapid fire range).

No advice, but as a guy with a burgeoning DE force whose regular opponents largely field SMs I'm feeling cautiously optimistic...

Azuza001 wrote:
Or if you want something to be tough and have multi wounds in the squad (terms) assault terms with storm shields. They are expensive but then your still mitigating those dark lances. Base numbers it takes 6 shots to kill 2 terms and they will destroy something if they get into close combat with it. Major overkill.

The problem here is that they are slow, expensive and have no ranged attack. They can just be ignored until the DE have killed everything else.

Spam infantry I think and stick to 1 wound models where possible to deny the effectiveness of his multi-wound weapons. JP assault squads or van Vets have the mobility to chase down his vehicles. Van Vets with storm shields are pretty durable as their 3++ means that the AP of Dark Lances etc is wasted and if you fail any saves, you only lose a 1 wound model. Give them plasma pistols and a few Thunder hammers and you can hunt down those vehicles pretty effectively.

Grav is good against DE too.

It's all about mitigating the wounds. A squad of 10 Marines, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with combi plasma it's mobile and still effective firing. Sternguard are awesome, drop pods not so much. But I get why you want to use them, your trying to get ahold of your opponent.

Out of what you mentioned target priority is important too. Try a 3 pronged attack, get as many dev teams as you can (like 3 10 man squads, 4 with missiles or laz or a mix, but you want distance here not multi melta) and a leutinant or cheap captain to help make sure they hit. Maybe put a cheap dread with dual auto cannons with them. That's your fire base. They stand still and target ravangers first and foremost. Target priority is key, figure out what is hurting you and make it pay.

2nd take some assault marines / vanguard with jump packs. Give a few thunder hammers. Also take scouts and set them up forward of the fire base. They are there to help finish other things harmed by the fire base. Keep them cheap but effective, you don't want 5 vanguard all with thunder hammers and storm shields. Take 2 men with shields and Chain swords, then one or 2 with thunder hammers. This keeps them effective. Give the scouts sniper rifles. Yeah they are not effective vs vehicles but they are cheap and if you do roll a 6 to wound that's a mortal wound. Bolters are probably best here though.

Finally take a deep strike group. 2 groups of terms as cheap as possible with those sternguard in the drop pod. They drop in and unload on something if your having issues. But try to keep them to a beta strike, don't drop them in until they are needed (or 3rd turn). Use them as a threat as much as an effect.

I know it is off topic, but can we take a moment to at least giggle over how "wet-cardboard" is now at least a viable option.

Amoras wrote:
You need more bodies. Small elite armies suffer hard against that many dark lances.

Pretty much exactly. I just threw together a dark lance and blaster heavy list for my DE exactly because I was falling prey to the opposite side of this equation, getting stomped by small, elite, Imperial lists where my little squishies with their Splinter rifles and Hekatarii blades just couldn't cut it.


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 gkos wrote:
fight flyer with flyer?

I've not done the math, but my gut instinct is that this is a bad idea. In my experience, Eldar flyers in general just annihilate Imperial flyers.


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 gkos wrote:


I would give the landscape a bit of consideration, vehicle based armies like wide open spaces, troops like confinement so consider what board you are playing on and tweak your list to match.

As a DE player, one of my favorite things is that this isn't true for us. We really don't care about open spaces at all, because every single one of our vehicles flies, so terrain is no obstacle

If your opponent regularly fields Dark Lances, then definitely increase the wounds on the field. More men makes it harder for his lances to inflict enough damage to actually make a difference. That being said, if he realizes Disintegrators are almost identical performers against most vehicles, and better at several performance points, that strategy starts to work less.

Crispy78 wrote:
No advice, but as a guy with a burgeoning DE force whose regular opponents largely field SMs I'm feeling cautiously optimistic...

As you should be.

I fear 120 walking SM's with HB's, PG's SB' etc... more so than 6 Storm Ravens. a Dis Cannon/Lance can only kill 1 or 3 SM at once, and 5 poison rifles will on average kill 1 (its actually something like 0.8 and 1.6 within rapid fire range). g SM's with HB's, PG's SB' etc... more so than 6 Storm Ravens. a Dis Cannon/Lance can only kill 1 or 3 SM at once, and 5 poison rifles will on average kill 1 (its actually something like 0.8 and 1.6 within rapid fire range).

That's the point. You need lots of Marines carrying heavy weapons (with ablative wounds) to take on a DE army.
This hasnt changed over the years.