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So it is the Ynarri player's turn and a unit of 5 scourges armed with 4 dark lances is within 6" of a unit of 4 Hellbalsters (they lost some earlier in the battle). Just behind the Hellblasters is a Primaris Ancient, the Scourges fire and all 4 Hellblasters are killed. This triggers the Primaris Ancient's Astartes Banner rule and Strength From Death.

What happens?

Assumption:
1) The Ynarri player will successfully kill the Ancient if the scourges fire at it.
2) The Hellblasters will kill the Scourges if allowed to fire at them.

My current thoughts: Everybody dies.

I don't know wich rule the Ancient's Astartes banner have but if it allows a destroyed unit to perform a last attack before being removed from table then both rules must be resolved at once and we must resolve it tru the Sequencing rule in page 178.

Each time a unit is completely destroyed within...
- Strength from Death

INFANTRY model is destroyed within ...
- Astartes Banner

Even if you are of the mindset that the last Model being Destroyed means the Unit is Destroyed, instead of the last Model being Removed means the Unit has been Destroyed, the underlined needs to be kept in mind. As we Allocate Wounds one at a time, even Face Dice ensures this occurs, it is not possible to Destroy multiple Models simultaneously. As only Removing/Destroying the very last Model from the Unit is going to be simultaneous with the Unit being destroyed, the banner is going to have multiple opportunities to go off before we even need Sequencing to resolve the last Model's death.

Good point. So let's say 3 hellblasters get to use the banner. Now let's worry about the last one. I am not confused by the sequencing rules, but interested what people make of their consequences here.

When the last model dies we have 2 simultaneous activations, the banner (for that model) and strength from death (for the Scourges). If the Ynarri player chooses SfD to activate first can the Scourges shoot the ancient? If they can and do can the banner still be used on the last hellblaster even though the banner is gone?

Another thing to consider: If you allow Strength from Death to occur before Astartes Banner, which in turn occurs before the Model is removed... what Model that is closest when it come time to target?
That does not eliminate the possibility of Sequencing things to snipe the Ancient, just makes it less likely to occur. However, if you allow for both Rules to happen simultaneously and choose to resolve Strength from Death first then the last Hellblaster does not benefit. It isn't a question of determining if the Banner is still 'in play,' it comes down to the fact there is no longer a way to measure the 'aura bubble' back to the now Removed Ancient even if it was. In previous cases like this, Game Workshop has always allowed creative sequencing to do strange things like this and I never have liked it.

Just be prepared as some players will not consider the Unit 'destroyed' as long as one Model remains on the Table.
Even if that Model is currently in a Schrodinger state of 'dead but still standing...'

That was my reasoning behind asking can the Scourges shoot the ancient. It's an odd one.

The second part in not so sure about. You already measured for the aura when the rule triggered, so if the hellblaster shooting is already in sequence, does it need to remain in range after the ability is triggered?

How many times you measured prior is irrelevant, the Rule requires a Model to be within X inches when it is resolved.
If the Ancient is removed prior to resolving the banner, it is impossible to be within X inches.

 JinxDragon wrote:
How many times you measured prior is irrelevant, the Rule requires a Model to be within X inches when it is resolved.
If the Ancient is removed prior to resolving the banner, it is impossible to be within X inches.

I see the conflict/confusion here, but I don't think there's an actual problem. When the hellblaster dies, it triggers SfD and the ancient's ability.

Even if the Ancient dies in soulburst, the hellblaster can still use the ability because it was triggered/qualified before the ancient died.

While I understand the argument that the Rule is already queued, Astartes Banner grants its ability to Model within 6 inches of an Ancient. A Unit does not get to retain the +1 Leadership bonus simply because it moved into the 6 inch Aura at some point in history, it must still be within 6 Inches for that +1 to remain on the Characteristic when we resolve any Rule related to Leadership. Similarly, the additional benefit granted for being within 6 inches of the Astartes Banner (free attack on death) is still reliant on actually being within 6 inches of the Ancient, both as the original requirement and it's own internal 6 inch measurement (it is an 'in addition,' so the original requirements do not go away). Any Opponent is going to be able to request that you measure to the now-removed Ancient to confirm you are complying with this requirement of Aura abilities.

While said Model was within 6 inches prior to Strength from Death, when it comes time to resolve the Banner....
Not all opponents will accept 'but it was within range last time I measured.'

This us all under the assumption that the Scourges can target the ancient. I'm not 100% that they can.

 JinxDragon wrote:
While I understand the argument that the Rule is already queued, Astartes Banner grants its ability to Model within 6 inches of an Ancient. A Unit does not get to retain the +1 Leadership bonus simply because it moved into the 6 inch Aura at some point in history, it must still be within 6 Inches for that +1 to remain on the Characteristic when we resolve any Rule related to Leadership. Similarly, the additional benefit granted for being within 6 inches of the Astartes Banner (free attack on death) is still reliant on actually being within 6 inches of the Ancient, both as the original requirement and it's own internal 6 inch measurement (it is an 'in addition,' so the original requirements do not go away). Any Opponent is going to be able to request that you measure to the now-removed Ancient to confirm you are complying with this requirement of Aura abilities.

While said Model was within 6 inches prior to Strength from Death, when it comes time to resolve the Banner....
Not all opponents will accept 'but it was within range last time I measured.'

Wich is the same if when i remove the last model to consider the unit *slain* then request my opponent to measure from his Scourges to the model now gone to see if he's within range to trigger strength from dead. He neither can't.

When Sequencing triggers, it's because the rule it's already happening so there is no way back, in order to claim both rules happening you are forced to measure for both rules before it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drager wrote:
This us all under the assumption that tge Scourges can target the ancient. I'm not 100% that they can.

It boils down to the wording of the ancient rule if it says when a model is slain you can do yadda yadda, then the ancient can be targeted, but if the text says something along the lines before remove the model resolve and extra attack then the ancient it's still protected because there is still a model closer to the Scourge unit then the character (even if it's in a Shcrodinger status)

Lord Perversor,
Good point on the "removed" situation, bringing everything back to Sequencing!

Back to all,
When this happens
during the game, the player
whose turn it is chooses the
order.
- Sequencing

Quick question:
What is the point of choosing an order if we do not take into account the outcomes of doing things in order?

<CHAPTER> units within 6" of any friendly <CHAPTER> ANCIENTS add 1 to their
Leadership. In addition, roll a D6 each time a <CHAPTER> INFANTRY model is destroyed within 6" of any
friendly <CHAPTER> ANCIENTS, before removing the model as a casualty. On a 4+ that model musters one
last surge of strength before succumbing to its wounds; it can either shoot with one of its weapons as if it were the
Shooting phase, or make a single attack as if it were the Fight phase.
- Astartes Banner

For me, it isn't the "stack" which is the issue but the wording within the Banner itself. As it begins by stating X Units within 6 inches of any friendly X Ancients.... we are required to have a Model within 6 inches in order to proceed with the rest of the Rule. The part about rolling a dice and doing something before removing it as a casualty is in addition to still being within 6 inches to benefit in the first place. We have to be within 6 inches to benefit from the "Aura" and, with no Model left to measure to, we simply can not meet this requirement when the ability 'procs.'

Personally:-
This is entirely in the hands of the player Dark Elder player, as the turn holder, and they should do the polite thing... never use a 'Timing Glitch' to deny an ability, you get a reputation doing that.
If a Tournament, then nothing we said here mattered - bring it up with the organizer and do whatever they say....

The Scourges can't shoot the Ancient.

There is a situation where they can, Targeting Requirements for Characters are:
A CHARACTER
can only be chosen as a target in
the Shooting phase if they are the
closest visible enemy unit to the
model that is shooting
- Characters, page 179

We had discussed this outcome earlier and narrowed the field of discussion to a situation where the final Model in the Unit was further away then the Character when Slain.

 JinxDragon wrote:
There is a situation where they can, Targeting Requirements for Characters are:
A CHARACTER
can only be chosen as a target in
the Shooting phase if they are the
closest visible enemy unit to the
model that is shooting
- Characters, page 179

We had discussed this outcome earlier and narrowed the field of discussion to a situation where the final Model in the Unit was further away then the Character when Slain.

According to the full Ancient rule i must disagree with Primark G.

SfD don't trigger until the unit is removed from table but the Ancient Banner rule tells you to resolve it *Before* removing the model, thus activating itself before SfD.

That's how i would play it due the specific wording Banner kicks in, then after resolving it SfD activates and the Scourges (on this example) may be free to attack the character since the previous unit has been fully removed.

Distances in Warhammer
40,000 are measured in
inches (") between the
closest points of the bases
of the models you’re
measuring to and from.
- Tools of war, Page 176

Both of them must trigger sometime between 'slain/destroyed' and 'removed,' you proved that to me. You highlighted that we can not Removed the Model without making it impossible to measure distance between Models, which is something a few Rules specifically require us to do when the Model is Slain. Prior to that I had no specific written Rule I could point to, and had to consider both 'Slain/Destroyed as synonymous with Removed' and 'Slain/Destroyed separate to Removed' when considering the words 'Destroyed and Removed.' Measuring to 'Slain Models,' using the above Rule specifically designed for measuring distances between Models, simply can not happen if we Remove the Model as it is being 'slain.'

Thus, you have shown to me, that we must first Slay the Model before we can Remove it.
This is entirely up to Sequencing as both Rules do something between those two point on the timeline.

I don't think whether the Ancient can be targetted (assuming the hell blaster is closer) is a sequencing thing. It's not the sequencing that is unclear I think, we can all agree (hopefully) that with both actions triggering on the 'destroyed' trigger they occur simultaneously and, as such, the Ynarri player decides the order.

Under the following assumptions

1) The hellblaster model is not removed until after the Astartes Banner model has been resolved (or cannot be resolved).

2) The hellblaster is closer to the scourges.

Then can the Ancient be targetted at all? Is a destroyed model in a completely destroyed unit able to fulfil the condition of being a closer model?

Side Note: There are I think about 10 interesting questions around this, but I'm trying to focus on one at a time and now I think people are agreed on sequencing I'm wandering to eligibility. I;ve got some thoughts on whether the banner needs to remain on the table too, but I'll mention those later when I've got them more in a row.

Drager,
As prior explained; it will all come down to the location of the final Slain Hellbalster when determining if the Ancient can be targeted. Place the three Hellblaster Models in a triangle around the Ancient and remove two opposite to yourself to demonstrate what I mean. A lot of the odd situations I have questions about involve making very deliberate 'bad choices,' such as killing the bodyguards in-front of the Character instead of the ones behind. Some though, like one I will have to ask in another thread myself, could be tactically advantageous.

But, hey, who knows just what is going through a dragons mind, one day I will leave my Character in peril with a rule on him waiting to resolve and no one will know why....

 JinxDragon wrote:
Drager,
As prior explained; it will all come down to the location of the final Slain Hellbalster when determining if the Ancient can be targeted. Place the three Hellblaster Models in a triangle around the Ancient and remove two opposite to yourself to demonstrate what I mean. A lot of the odd situations I have questions about involve making very deliberate 'bad choices,' such as killing the bodyguards in-front of the Character instead of the ones behind. Some though, like one I will have to ask in another thread myself, could be tactically advantageous.

But, hey, who knows just what is going through a dragons mind, one day I will leave my Character in peril with a rule on him waiting to resolve and no one will know why....

As I said I'm assuming the hellblasters are all between the Ancient and the scourges and, apologies, I read your previous statement and I couldn't work out whether you were stating the same problem I was (that I think the Ancient can't be targetted as the Hellblasters are closer) or saying that you thought it could. You've clarified it now, though, thanks.

So, if the scourges cannot shoot, can they charge the destroyed Hellblaster?

I think I heard a snap at that one, this gets even more wonky:
That unit can immediately do one of the following...

The unit can charge as if it were the Charge phase, even if
it Advanced or Fell Back this turn (enemy units can fire
Overwatch as normal). A unit cannot do this if it is within 1" of
an enemy unit.


If I immediately charge within the period between the Model being destroyed and the Model being Removed... can I target the Unit that triggered this ability in the first place?
Sure the 'Can only damage the Unit you charged' Restriction would make it pointless, but the image of the already dead Marine getting to overwatch made me laugh!

 JinxDragon wrote:
I think I heard a snap at that one, this gets even more wonky:
That unit can immediately do one of the following...

The unit can charge as if it were the Charge phase, even if
it Advanced or Fell Back this turn (enemy units can fire
Overwatch as normal). A unit cannot do this if it is within 1" of
an enemy unit.


If I immediately charge within the period between the Model being destroyed and the Model being Removed... can I target the Unit that triggered this ability in the first place?
Sure the 'Can only damage the Unit you charged' Restriction would make it pointless, but the image of the already dead Marine getting to overwatch made me laugh!

Well I was thinking with the astartes banner you might be trying to avoid takinga full shot and make him snap instead and/or multi charge the ancient, but only have to base the hellblaster for a successful charge. But yeah the idea of the dead and about to fire model overwatching is... odd.

Well to make things a lot simpler here is that Strength from Death only activates after the entirety of the actions involved in what triggers it is resolved. This includes removing models as casualties, So the Primaris Ancient gets to resolve his ability first since it happens before the unit is removed as a casualty and SfD activates right after.

Page 76 – Strength from Death
Change the last sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘That unit can immediately do one of the following,
even if it has already done so in this turn (if the unit
was destroyed as the result of a unit’s action – e.g.
making a shooting attack or fighting – the Soulburst
action is resolved after the unit has completely resolved
its current action, e.g. after it has completed all of
its shooting attacks or after it has finished fighting,
including making any consolidation moves):’

I would postulate that resolving the shooting action involves removing all the models slain, primaris ancient since he actualyl interrupts the shooting resolution in this case, etc

Good point on it's strange internalized timing, still going to keep the 'broken' flag on the Rule though....
Even that internalized timing is bizarre, completely out of sequence and contradictory with it's own command of 'immediately do one of the following.'

I don't think this is really that complicated. Once you break it down to damage being resolved one at a time, which is 40Ks current base mechanic. The Ancient allows each model destroyed to (in this case) shoot before it is removed. A RAW reading of the rules would result in each Hellblaster making a shooting attack as it is destroyed, one at a time. Strength From Death doesn't trigger until the entire unit is destroyed, i.e. upon the removal of the last Hellblaster, at which point all the destroyed Hellblaster models would already have performed their extra shooting attack. At that point, any remaining Scourges would be able to target the Ancient.

This situation only seems wonky when you're rolling batch dice, which is a convenience, not the base RAW mechanic. Resolve it one damage at a time and it all makes perfect sense.

Just these two points to keep in mind:
Destroyed and Removed are two different things, the Banner functions by injecting attacks between these two actions after all
Tools of War requires us to measure distances between units from Base to Base, so we need Bases/Hulls in play if we are going to be 'within x inches'
When the final Model is Destroyed the Unit is Destroyed, and it is at that point both Strength from Death and an instance of the Banner trigger

Strength from Death just... well... thanks to Errata it now tells us to 'Hurry Up and Wait' as the military would put it. It immediately has us carry out an action, injecting itself prior to the 'removal command' with the same timing that the Banner does, but then goes on to tell us to resolve that action at a later point in the Timeline. Just terrible Rule Writing to inform the Players to do something Immediately, only to require that Immediate Action wait for normal actions to be resolve first, but it also is coming from Errata which is double face-palm worthy. Yet that is what we have been left with, an option to make a choice that we will then have to wait to resolve later... if it is even legal to still do so.

It doesn't eliminate the problem entirely; just reduced the circumstances needed to such a specific situation that probability ensures we will never encounter it on the Tabletop. The Models have to be positioned in a specific way, the attacks have to remove Models within a specific way, the X instances of the Banner which do resolve before Strength from Death need to go a certain way, and then the Dark Eldar has to be aware that he can 'queue up an illegal action' just to get into a similar situation as was being discussed here before Errata changed everything. That is a lot of things completely outside of our control, and then it all hinges on just having the right sort of Player who simply won't laugh at the situation and move on anyway. This really is a non-issue being discussed at this point, because it is an interesting little quirk of the Rules that was made even more laughable by Errata trying to fix this exact situation.

It really was an oversight I shouldn't have made, though Errata always throws me off, but that 'reshuffling of timings' is just another example of this Editions love of 'analog thinking' that I still have to get used to.