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This is something that has bothered me for awhile, but one of the main things that bothered me about 6th was the addition of rule-lite Supplement "codexes," but the thing that bothered me more was the addition (or separation) of a bunch of smaller "factions." 7th edition added Harlequins, Admech (split into two armies because of 2 model releases), Deathwatch, Khorne Daemonkin, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Genestealer Cults, while completely separating the Inquisiton and Assassins from the Grey Knight codex. 6th made Stormtroopers a "standalone army", and now 8th is separating Death Guard and Thousand Sons into their own codexes.

The debatable issue is: How many armies are too many, and should armies be capable of working as "standalone" armies? Harlequins in 7th were impossible to field in a CAD due to not actually having any HQ choices, while the Admech were "War Convocation: Final Destination." Deathwatch were competitively dead on arrival while Genestealer Cults at least had a few neat tricks and were rounded out that you could field them without allies. Of course, all-Custodes and all-Sisters of Silence aren't viable.

Call it if you will but the whole idea of separate Marine codexes needs to disappear. For all the talk about 7e or previous editions being bloated, I'm eagerly awaiting Codex: Marbo has a Case of The Mondays.

My larger issue is with factions that cannot possibly stand on their own. I'm fine with things like Deathguard if they are going to be fully fleshed out and stand alone. I'd rather see all armies built to stand on their own without "allies". For me the issue is largely imperial armies that are "armies" with 3 unit choices, these should have all just been rolled into a single faction or left out.

I don't see why there would be such a thing as too many factions, especially with the faction keyword system in 8th.
You say the separation of armies into multiple sub-factions bothers you, but you didn't really explain why.
The only problem I see is the number of books you need to buy/carry.

Well, some things are getting batched together now too.

Three different Codex were put into one, in Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus and Codex: Imperial Knights now being a single Codex release.

Going by how the Index also grouped these together, and seeing that the Index has done the same with Adeptus Ministorum, there's a chance that all of the armies under that will go into the same Codex. And that's pretty massive. That's:
Adepta Sororitas
Adeptus Astra Telepathica
Sisters of Silence
Officio Assassinorum
The Inquisition
Adeptus Custodes

That is a hell of a line-up if those are put in the same book, and I have a feeling they will be. The codex will be a sort of smörgåsbord of units for other armies to pick from. If it is designed to work on its own, it has to be built around the Adepta Sororitas as the bulk of the troops, which is not too bad either.

 Purifier wrote:
Well, some things are getting batched together now too.

Three different Codex were put into one, in Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus and Codex: Imperial Knights now being a single Codex release.

Going by how the Index also grouped these together, and seeing that the Index has done the same with Adeptus Ministorum, there's a chance that all of the armies under that will go into the same Codex. And that's pretty massive. That's:
Adepta Sororitas
Adeptus Astra Telepathica
Sisters of Silence
Officio Assassinorum
The Inquisition
Adeptus Custodes

That is a hell of a line-up if those are put in the same book, and I have a feeling they will be. The codex will be a sort of smörgåsbord of units for other armies to pick from. If it is designed to work on its own, it has to be built around the Adepta Sororitas as the bulk of the troops, which is not too bad either.

I will buy that book.

fresus wrote:
I don't see why there would be such a thing as too many factions, especially with the faction keyword system in 8th.
You say the separation of armies into multiple sub-factions bothers you, but you didn't really explain why.
The only problem I see is the number of books you need to buy/carry.

-For 6th in particular, the supplements were obvious cash-grabs. Codex Iyanden in particular stands out, as costing akin to a full codex for about 2 pages of actual rules (and Altar of War missions nobody would use). If it was something like 3rd ed Codex: Armageddon or Codex: Eye of Terror, that would be another story.
-Should souphammer be the norm?
-If multiple factions each have overlapping units with identical roles (Devestators vs Guard HWT vs Retributors), then only one will be "best" for a given soup role. Ergo, why bother with such units?
-

There are a couple of different issues here.

1) GW obviously can't or won't support the factions that exist now with either models or rules. Sisters are still metal, etc., etc. Large swathes of existing factions clearly exist now in a deprecated fashion, where, yes, technically GW is providing rules but they really don't intend for anyone to actually play with them. Look at Razorwing Flocks -- GW didn't spend any time thinking about these at all, and then when they turned out to be good they quickly got nerfed into oblivion. You weren't supposed to actually use them; they were just in the index because if they weren't then people would get mad that Dark Eldar lost a unit. This contributes to a lot of bloat as GW keeps including units without trying to make them playable.

But they're sort of stuck, because players who already own certain models would be really mad if GW did the best-for-the-game thing and drastically cut down on the number of things there are. And their business is built around selling new models, so they're pretty much always making this problem worse because they get more out of releasing a totally new model with new rules instead of refreshing older models or reworking old rules.

2) The problem of lots of books is mostly not a problem as long as souping is kept under control. Like, yes, it's a cash grab and you could probably have represented Death Guard just fine with 2 extra pages in the Chaos codex, but it's not clear that this matters all that much except to people who want to play Death Guard. Churning out these subfactions which are really just slightly modified versions of existing factions simply doesn't take much work, rules-wise. Obviously they put quite a bit into models for Death Guard, but most subfactions also require very little modeling work -- most of the Space Marine chapters are just a few bits different from Ultramarines.

Souping is of course a huge problem and is totally destructive of faction identity. But again they have this problem where now people have built armies where they're depending on being able to soup. They've sold a bunch of Celestines by promising that you can use her with your Imperium army. Nerfing Celestine probably only causes some grumbling, but telling people that they simply can't use their models anymore is really going to piss people off. It's a hard thing to unwind even if they wanted to.

I feel as though the subdivisions happening in 8th is just more of the supplement problem that plagued 6th and 7th. Supplements really killed the last edition with quick cash-grab formation and rules to work as patch jobs, and the nickel-and-dime business practice that went perfectly with the powercreep that seeped in.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

fresus wrote:
I don't see why there would be such a thing as too many factions, especially with the faction keyword system in 8th.
You say the separation of armies into multiple sub-factions bothers you, but you didn't really explain why.
The only problem I see is the number of books you need to buy/carry.

-For 6th in particular, the supplements were obvious cash-grabs. Codex Iyanden in particular stands out, as costing akin to a full codex for about 2 pages of actual rules (and Altar of War missions nobody would use). If it was something like 3rd ed Codex: Armageddon or Codex: Eye of Terror, that would be another story.
-Should souphammer be the norm?
-If multiple factions each have overlapping units with identical roles (Devestators vs Guard HWT vs Retributors), then only one will be "best" for a given soup role. Ergo, why bother with such units?
-

Soup has nothing to do with the number of factions. Even if you folded all the Imperium factions in like 5 factions only, you could still ally them the same way, because they would still be imperium.
Sub-factions are actually a good tool against soup armies, since you get (or will get when the proper codex will be out) bonuses for using more restrictive faction keyworlds.

It seems to me like what you want is the removal of the broadest faction keywords (such as Imperium or Chaos), which could only be viable by merging sub-factions together (otherwise many of them become unplayable). Is this why you associate the number of faction with soup-armies?

Imperium is the only keyword that covers too much currently to use in one detachment. So I'd be fine if it was limited to being the amry-wide keyword. Depending on how it unfolds in the future the same limitation may be necesary for Chaos/Aeldari

24. Or 36. In my ideal fantasy land, we'd see a new codex on a regular, fixed schedule, in 2-3 year cycles. (To a maximum of one codex a month.)

This isnt just a game, its also a hobby, has story, many players play narrative etc.. etc..

There will only be to many factions if it hurts GW business and ability to addess issues (they seem to be doing better now and we have more factions).

BUT, some of the factions you talked about NEED their own army and some even once DID have their own. Harlequins, DW, GSC, Admech all are great armies (some are lacking options but a few point changes and Stratagems could fix that, or just adding 1 more unit can as well, doesnt need to be a box unit just different version).

For you it might be to many for others its great, i never would have played CSM/Daemons in 6/7th it KDK wasnt released, b.c it was i now have a 5k army of KDK and i am waiting for the codex (if it becomes one).

Simple. If a faction does not have the fluff or unit/model line-up to be its own faction it shouldn't be. That's just a money grab and you end up with tiny armies which are one-trick ponies unless allied (something easier now with 8th). I'm happy to see more armies be compiled into fewer codices).

I think 40K has too many factions right now, simply because they do not support them well enough already - so adding more to the mix doesn't help things. However, my experience with GW managers and staff in the past has biased my opinion. GW is a business. They sell stuff by producing new and shiny plastic stuff that people want to buy. The game is very much secondary (though they've learned that some attention to it can pay off). I do think eventually 8th will end up in the same mess that 7th was with far too many books, far too many codices, and far too many factions.

GW has obviously done their own math, and through experience found that a new race of shiny plastic stuff will outsell actually supporting the existing races/ranges. In reality 3-4 races could support the entire game, just keep producing new and better kits - even if the wargear entries don't change. That, however, doesn't seem to make the same kind of profit.

The Deathwatch could be good if they dropped their unit prices. Honestly I would say there are two ways to look at this.

1. People love choice so there will never be an end. However the majority will never be super comp viable and they are made for options. Most armies likely to never see a big update unless popular.

2. There is a maximum they will never push past but every army will be super in depth.

Both have their appeal to me.

My problem is with things that aren't a real faction and can only be played in a soup army (IE Sisters of Silence and assassins). Stuff like the Death Guard release is perfectly fine by me.

I've always called for the disbandment of the Imperium, getting rid of the Faction Keyword seems a good start!

The smaller 'factionettes' should be rolled together into a true Faction, merged into existing Factions, or given new Units till they can stand as their own Faction.
Not against the choices all these Factions bring, it just seems a disservice to give an entire Faction 1 introduction page and 4 Units....

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Call it if you will but the whole idea of separate Marine codexes needs to disappear. For all the talk about 7e or previous editions being bloated, I'm eagerly awaiting Codex: Marbo has a Case of The Mondays.

Why? You don't like people having choice or variety? There have always been separate Marine codexes - we had four Space Marine lists in 2nd Ed (they rolled the Dark Angels and Blood Angels codexes into one big codex). How do additional factions hurt you? If you don't think a faction is either viable or attractive then don't play it.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Call it if you will but the whole idea of separate Marine codexes needs to disappear. For all the talk about 7e or previous editions being bloated, I'm eagerly awaiting Codex: Marbo has a Case of The Mondays.

Why? You don't like people having choice or variety? There have always been separate Marine codexes - we had four Space Marine lists in 2nd Ed (they rolled the Dark Angels and Blood Angels codexes into one big codex). How do additional factions hurt you? If you don't think a faction is either viable or attractive then don't play it.

Well, he's got one thread about how he wants choice and variety and another where he wants to remove a lot of it. When everything is wrong at once.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Call it if you will but the whole idea of separate Marine codexes needs to disappear. For all the talk about 7e or previous editions being bloated, I'm eagerly awaiting Codex: Marbo has a Case of The Mondays.

Why? You don't like people having choice or variety? There have always been separate Marine codexes - we had four Space Marine lists in 2nd Ed (they rolled the Dark Angels and Blood Angels codexes into one big codex). How do additional factions hurt you? If you don't think a faction is either viable or attractive then don't play it.

So long as the faction stands entirely on its own then I'm fine. Some current factions fail this, though, since they don't feel complete.

I don't mind any number of factions, but i do think being able to combine factions with different strengths and weaknesses based on the arbitrary reason that they are a part of the same larger faction (chaos, imperium, etc), as this seems to make it much harder to balance things.

 Purifier wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Call it if you will but the whole idea of separate Marine codexes needs to disappear. For all the talk about 7e or previous editions being bloated, I'm eagerly awaiting Codex: Marbo has a Case of The Mondays.

Why? You don't like people having choice or variety? There have always been separate Marine codexes - we had four Space Marine lists in 2nd Ed (they rolled the Dark Angels and Blood Angels codexes into one big codex). How do additional factions hurt you? If you don't think a faction is either viable or attractive then don't play it.

Well, he's got one thread about how he wants choice and variety and another where he wants to remove a lot of it. When everything is wrong at once.

I would rather 5 fully fleshed-out armies with the ability to go "tall" with them than 20+ "factions" that are functionally (if not literally) only one unit. 40k doesn't have anything as silly as AOS's "Firebellies" (literally, only the Firebelly option from Ogre Kingdoms") but that's a pretty low bar.

fresus wrote:

The only problem I see is the number of books you need to buy/carry.

To me, that's the only real issue I see, too. I was just saying to somebody the other day, if they took Necrons out of Index: Xenos 1, it would have left them enough room to just make the damn thing a single Aeldari codex. Since their factions allow them to all run as one army, I don't see a real point to expecting people to have three different codices.

As a general rule any subfaction "army" should be deleted and reorganized into the main codex. This essentially means all variant marine armies and all chaos armies. Really, Chaos Armies should exist as a single book (with the addition of a few IG "traitor" items). This problem is really evident with variant marine armies, as their special units generally are "Super" versions of existing marine units (Death Company and Sanguinary Guard are basically super vanguards or honour guards. Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing Knights are super terminators and super bikers respectively). Hell even within generic marine armies there are some redundancies, like Centurions and Terminators.

So Chaos Legions and Space Marines

Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Assassins, non-mechanicus Knights, Scions, Adeptus Ministrum, and Inquisitors should all be a single faction. Flavour wise, these are all the secondary, behind the scenes people who make the Imperium work. They're not frontline soldiers, their the agents of the god emperor's will. Not to mention these units do actually support each other, which can allow them to make a relatively balanced force if mixed while still give the opportunity to run single "pure" forces.

So Imperial Agents

The Imperial Guard is good as-is. Some faction rules and they're juuuuust right. Probably the only Imperial faction that wasn't pimped to all hell in recent years.

IG, not hard.

Adeptus Mechanicus and Questoris Knights are just begging to be one faction. They need some more units (perhaps "Mechanicum" versions of existing vehicles, seeing as the AdMech are the sole source of Imperial Hardware, having special rules beyond their normal counterparts) but this one deserves to be it's own.

AdMech

Orks. They're Orks. Nothing else really to say.

Orks

Tau: this should be the "good" counterpart to Chaos Legions, as the Tau are known to recruit several Xenos into their ranks. I would be glad if they gave Kroot HQs, more Vespid-type units, introduced the Demigur, and gave rules for some limited imperial units as "Gue'Vesa". Like the "imperial agents", they should allow you to field a balanced mixed force or a harder to use, but more rewarding "pure" force and everything in between. Farsight Enclaves should be limited to faction rules rather than be a standalone faction.

Tau Empire/Federation

Eldar: They should be in one book, but three sections. While Harlequins should be able to be intermixed between the two, Craftworlders and Dark Eldar should not, as they have little overlap but cover each other's weaknesses pretty well (in essence, creating a mary-sue army if they did mix) And Eldar should be hard to play, regardless of which type. They should be one book solely to keep the Harlequins, which should be allies to both, consistent between them. But otherwise count as 2 factions. Also give the Archon back his jetbike!

1 Eldar book, 2 factions.

Tyranids should be in the same book as the Genestealer Cult. They should be able to intermingle like Chaos and Tau, but with a bit more restrictions (like, your warlord determined who would be in what slot or something like that).

Tyranid

Necrons: They're in a good place.

Necrons.


So that cuts it down to 10-11 from the 29 "factions" we have now.

I'd like to see more factions, like actual different races. In my mind there is only 8 factions so far. Imperium, Chaos, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons and Tyranids.

I'd like to see this move to 12. It's cool to have different sub-factions and ways to play armies of whichever 'main faction' you choose (Such as marines, Guard, Admech etc for imperium) However, I'd like to see some genuinely new species and new smaller empires explored similar in scope and scale to the T'au. Not every faction needs to be all "We will control and destroy the entire Galaxy! MWHAHAHAHA!!"

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Call it if you will but the whole idea of separate Marine codexes needs to disappear. For all the talk about 7e or previous editions being bloated, I'm eagerly awaiting Codex: Marbo has a Case of The Mondays.

Why? You don't like people having choice or variety? There have always been separate Marine codexes - we had four Space Marine lists in 2nd Ed (they rolled the Dark Angels and Blood Angels codexes into one big codex). How do additional factions hurt you? If you don't think a faction is either viable or attractive then don't play it.

Well, he's got one thread about how he wants choice and variety and another where he wants to remove a lot of it. When everything is wrong at once.

I would rather 5 fully fleshed-out armies with the ability to go "tall" with them than 20+ "factions" that are functionally (if not literally) only one unit. 40k doesn't have anything as silly as AOS's "Firebellies" (literally, only the Firebelly option from Ogre Kingdoms") but that's a pretty low bar.

I agree in that we need playable factions, but we have plenty of fleshed-out armies. Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Orks, Eldar x 3, Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Chaos and Tau spring to mind. Genestealer Cults are fun but I recognize that they are somewhat boutique as are Deathwatch but they add some spice to the table. When I play GSC folks come over the to the table and say: "Cool - Genestealer Cults! How do they play?" I am not sure about AdMech but at they seem viable. SoB are on life support but I don't begrudge their being in the game. I even have some from 20 years ago. Custodes seem to be intended to be seasoning/spice for an existing IG or SM army. That does not bother me since its what Grey Knights were in 2d Ed.

I do see the problem of opportunity cost, but I really like variety and I'm not seeing the problem. My Dark Angels can be three very different lists on their own. I really like playing against a new list.

If you only want five factions play a WW2 game.

 Hollow wrote:
I'd like to see more factions, like actual different races. In my mind there is only 8 factions so far. Imperium, Chaos, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons and Tyranids.

I'd like to see this move to 12. It's cool to have different sub-factions and ways to play armies of whichever 'main faction' you choose (Such as marines, Guard, Admech etc for imperium) However, I'd like to see some genuinely new species and new smaller empires explored similar in scope and scale to the T'au. Not every faction needs to be all "We will control and destroy the entire Galaxy! MWHAHAHAHA!!"

I'm assuming you didn't get the memo, but Eldar and Dark Eldar are besties now. Like the shared keyword Imperium they are now both keyword <Aeldari>. So by your count it should be 7.

Darsath wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Call it if you will but the whole idea of separate Marine codexes needs to disappear. For all the talk about 7e or previous editions being bloated, I'm eagerly awaiting Codex: Marbo has a Case of The Mondays.

Why? You don't like people having choice or variety? There have always been separate Marine codexes - we had four Space Marine lists in 2nd Ed (they rolled the Dark Angels and Blood Angels codexes into one big codex). How do additional factions hurt you? If you don't think a faction is either viable or attractive then don't play it.

So long as the faction stands entirely on its own then I'm fine. Some current factions fail this, though, since they don't feel complete.

What about Mercenaries for hire? nothing wrong with that.

Assassins SHOULD NOT be their own army, why would you have an army of assassins? You would field them when needed to be.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Call it if you will but the whole idea of separate Marine codexes needs to disappear. For all the talk about 7e or previous editions being bloated, I'm eagerly awaiting Codex: Marbo has a Case of The Mondays.

Why? You don't like people having choice or variety? There have always been separate Marine codexes - we had four Space Marine lists in 2nd Ed (they rolled the Dark Angels and Blood Angels codexes into one big codex). How do additional factions hurt you? If you don't think a faction is either viable or attractive then don't play it.

Well, he's got one thread about how he wants choice and variety and another where he wants to remove a lot of it. When everything is wrong at once.

I would rather 5 fully fleshed-out armies with the ability to go "tall" with them than 20+ "factions" that are functionally (if not literally) only one unit. 40k doesn't have anything as silly as AOS's "Firebellies" (literally, only the Firebelly option from Ogre Kingdoms") but that's a pretty low bar.

I agree in that we need playable factions, but we have plenty of fleshed-out armies. Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Orks, Eldar x 3, Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Chaos and Tau spring to mind. Genestealer Cults are fun but I recognize that they are somewhat boutique as are Deathwatch but they add some spice to the table. When I play GSC folks come over the to the table and say: "Cool - Genestealer Cults! How do they play?" I am not sure about AdMech but at they seem viable. SoB are on life support but I don't begrudge their being in the game. I even have some from 20 years ago. Custodes seem to be intended to be seasoning/spice for an existing IG or SM army. That does not bother me since its what Grey Knights were in 2d Ed.

I do see the problem of opportunity cost, but I really like variety and I'm not seeing the problem. My Dark Angels can be three very different lists on their own. I really like playing against a new list.

If you only want five factions play a WW2 game.

SOB are amazing actually, very strong army with lots of units for a metal range army that never been updated, good rules and many types of builds. Players are limited b.c its a costly army so you dont see it often. They are for sure the Weapons experts of Marines.
As a person with a LARGE SoB army, i've field 4 different styles in 8th (all my games i played them differently) and oddly, won all my games with them.

GSC also has large and viable play styles, sense some of their units are from IG kits they were easier to flush out.

So: Space Marines, Jump Pack Space Marines, Bike Space Marines, Infantry Space Marine, and Infantry Space Marines that trade half the Marine lineup for more Power Weapons. That sounds like quite a few distinct armies.

Orks are a monobuild army in 8th. Harlequins got a free pass in 8th because of Ynnari rules, but die otherwise.

Genestealer Cults were actually relatively well-rounded when they first came out, due to strong deployment strategies, cost-effective transports, a good psychic discipline, and incredible threat saturation/MSU (and a good meta-detachment and good Formations). Deathwatch...weren't. In fact, if you were to glance over the Deathwatch Formations, you could joke that they served the Ordo Xerox.

 Purifier wrote:

 Hollow wrote:
I'd like to see more factions, like actual different races. In my mind there is only 8 factions so far. Imperium, Chaos, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tau, Necrons and Tyranids.

I'd like to see this move to 12. It's cool to have different sub-factions and ways to play armies of whichever 'main faction' you choose (Such as marines, Guard, Admech etc for imperium) However, I'd like to see some genuinely new species and new smaller empires explored similar in scope and scale to the T'au. Not every faction needs to be all "We will control and destroy the entire Galaxy! MWHAHAHAHA!!"

I'm assuming you didn't get the memo, but Eldar and Dark Eldar are besties now. Like the shared keyword Imperium they are now both keyword <Aeldari>. So by your count it should be 7.

I did get that memo. I burned it.

I know what you're saying and yes. If I were king of GW I would lay out codexs like this.

SPACE MARINES
IMPERIUM OF MAN
CHAOS SPACE MARINES
DEMONS OF CHAOS
ELDAR
TAU EMPIRE
HIVE MIND
NECRONS
GREENSKINS

SoB are indeed strong on the table (when you see them), but their range seems on life-support. I'd be happy to see new releases for them.

I like my GSC, but they are really IG plus some Genestealers. Nothing wrong with that, but they are a bit niche when you take the IG away. Again, I have no issues with that!