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 Jidmah wrote:
I agree, many other armies have varying BS for combat and shooting armies, we could as well. But I guess that ship has sailed. As it is, Bad Moons almost got BS4, and Freebootas have BS4+DakkaDakkaDakka if they manage to kill something.

In general DakkaDakkaDakka makes all our shouting 16.66% less inefficient (yay?), so with some point drops I could see them going places.

It’s not a silver bullet but I think it’s the best we could have hoped for. I would have like to see a switch to bs
4+ as standard and an attempt to make smaller squads viable. But that was never going to happen and won’t sell models so I’m happy with the Dakka rule. I also don’t play much against -1 to hit type armies so it is better for me. Against -2 to hit forces it’s hugely better as you can possibly hit.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Overwatch? That's a 1 in 36 chance to do something.

lmao, welcome to ork logic Jidmah, "OMG WE GOT A NEW ABILITY THAT WHEN IT WORKS IS AMAZING!" and then you and me the reality players "Yeah but dude, its a 2.77% chance to get 1 extra hit....that won't help much"

I am still unsure if this reaction we see is caused by ork players not running the numbers OR if we, as a community, have been crapped on for so long that any kind of "buff" is viewed as amazing regardless of its effectiveness. I personally think it might be a combination of the two with a strong leaning towards the 1st option. A third option is also the random masochists who enjoy playing this kind of thing

Nah, it's just the Orks=NPC mindset.
"Our shooting is inefficient" - "Orks should be bad at shooting"
"Our PKs are too expensive and do to little" - "It cannot be better than a PF"
"Our elites die too fast" - "Orks are supposed to die fast"
"Look, we got a minor buff!" - "Everyone should have that."


I really struggle to stop myself from trolling the space marine thread by telling them how their army is fine because Gulliman+Razorbacks sometimes places 3rd in some 12 people tournaments. You know, like all the SM players do in our threads.

Literally NO Space Marine player said Power Klaws should be worse than Power Fists. Please find a post. I insist.

Sure, once you find a post that claims that a space marine player said so.

Go start a fight out of nothing elsewhere.

I'm hoping for a "Kustom Klaw" that does d6 damage and is not a relic, but maybe is limited to Warbosses and Big Meks. Pointed appropriately, of course.

 Jidmah wrote:
Sure, once you find a post that claims that a space marine player said so.

Go start a fight out of nothing elsewhere.

In your post you literally did that. So I'm calling you out.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Sure, once you find a post that claims that a space marine player said so.

Go start a fight out of nothing elsewhere.

In your post you literally did that. So I'm calling you out.

Saying that some people have said that Power Klaws shouldn't be better than Power Fists is a different statement than saying that Space Marines players have called for Power Klaws to be worse than Power Fists.

Honestly both powerfists and powerklaws should be better. Even at around 12 points they're still expensive and do crap damage for how difficult it is to get them to actually swing, and even then you have the -1 penalty to hit which should also be removed. The damage should match that of a lascannon to be even remotely effective.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Sure, once you find a post that claims that a space marine player said so.

Go start a fight out of nothing elsewhere.

In your post you literally did that. So I'm calling you out.

Please do provide a quote.

You should work on your reading comprehension or get better at trolling.

Ignore him. If he can't read your post properly he isn't worth a reply.

I would love to see Grots taking up 1/2 a transport space. The idea of 40 Grots pouring out of a battlewagon is one I quite like.

I would very much like to get my 'ard boys back, I put some effort into converting them...

I do like the OP's idea of dakka dakka dakka, with orks ignoring all modifiers to hit - I think including buffs. Let's face it, the orks aren't aiming. If you're invisible, you're just as likely to get hit as if you're not. improve their aim? they're still just squeezing the trigger and waving it around, just to see how loud they can make it.

It does seem like we should be able to squeeze more grots into a transport, but on the other hand that might raise questions about why a warboss only takes up one transport slot.

I would also like 'ard boyz back. It's really weird that they weren't even in the index.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
How about this:

General rule: Dakka Dakka Dakka: a roll of a natural 6 to hit when shooting is always considered a hit regardless of modifiers, additionally, for every natural roll of 6 in the shooting phase, infantry models without artillery can fire another shot with the same weapon (this extra shots can not generate extra shots)

Well im happy to see that my prayers were heard, though this working for KMK and overwatch will be crazy

I’m looking forward to using it with the Dakkajet now, and hopefully seeing a slight boost in the shooting of my ‘nauts. Won’t fix a Stompa but nice to get boosts like this army wide. I always used the stratagem on Tankbustas
So saves me spending the CP now I guess too.

padda_the_hutt wrote:


I’m looking forward to using it with the Dakkajet now, and hopefully seeing a slight boost in the shooting of my ‘nauts. Won’t fix a Stompa but nice to get boosts like this army wide. I always used the stratagem on Tankbustas
So saves me spending the CP now I guess too.

On a decked out Dakkajet it gives you 1.5 more hits (when at 4+ to hit) on average, not bad by any means but don't expect that "buff" to do more then slightly boost shooting, and by slightly I do mean SLIGHTLY. Not to get negative but Ork shooting right now is a joke, and if this is the only thing they do to address it then we are still screwed because at the moment most of our weapons could DOUBLE their number of shots and it wouldn't break the game.

SemperMortis wrote:

padda_the_hutt wrote:


I’m looking forward to using it with the Dakkajet now, and hopefully seeing a slight boost in the shooting of my ‘nauts. Won’t fix a Stompa but nice to get boosts like this army wide. I always used the stratagem on Tankbustas
So saves me spending the CP now I guess too.

On a decked out Dakkajet it gives you 1.5 more hits (when at 4+ to hit) on average, not bad by any means but don't expect that "buff" to do more then slightly boost shooting, and by slightly I do mean SLIGHTLY. Not to get negative but Ork shooting right now is a joke, and if this is the only thing they do to address it then we are still screwed because at the moment most of our weapons could DOUBLE their number of shots and it wouldn't break the game.

I agree it’s only a slight boost, but I appreciate that it’s free, and always ‘on’. Army wide it can add up. I expect the real tweaks to come in the weapon profiles. I don’t think so much in the number of shots- we already roll enough dice, but in the strength and damage of the weapons. Eg Lootas bumped to any or all of St8 or ap2 or 3 damage flat etc. Think the nauts and battlewagons will see some better damage output. I’d love to see Burma’s get bumped too, so like d3 scorcha or something.

One of biggest hopes tho is that powerklaws just do a flat 2 or 3 and kill saws do a flat 3 or 4 so we have more consistent punch in combat.

Won’t have to wait long to find out now!

I kind of want a generic Warlord in addition to Warboss. Maybe it'd be a stratagem upgrade like Captain to Chapter Master and he'd have a better aura, but I think a massive 7-8 wound dude that can tear things up in melee but can still ride in transports would be fitting for a Warlord since they're supposed to be the Orks that command other Warbosses.

I also think a Warlord model or stratagem would be cool. I was thinking having buff auras that work for all clans would be a good way of representing a warlord's authority.

Edit: By "work for all clans" I mean that his auras work for all friendly ork models, and not just ones that share the same clan keyword.

What if Meganobz had a rule where it converted the damage of d3 damage weapon rolls of 5 or 6 into 1 damage? I know the wording on this would be weird and difficult to track ( I had a hard enough time trying to word it myself) but it would make d3 damage weapons have to spend 2 shots per meganob.

mhalko1 wrote:
What if Meganobz had a rule where it converted the damage of d3 damage weapon rolls of 5 or 6 into 1 damage? I know the wording on this would be weird and difficult to track ( I had a hard enough time trying to word it myself) but it would make d3 damage weapons have to spend 2 shots per meganob.

Meganobz have three wounds, so d3 weapons already take two shots to kill them most of the time.

IMO the main issue of meganobz is not survivablilty but low damage output and the lack of a good delivery system.

 Jidmah wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
What if Meganobz had a rule where it converted the damage of d3 damage weapon rolls of 5 or 6 into 1 damage? I know the wording on this would be weird and difficult to track ( I had a hard enough time trying to word it myself) but it would make d3 damage weapons have to spend 2 shots per meganob.

Meganobz have three wounds, so d3 weapons already take two shots to kill them most of the time.

IMO the main issue of meganobz is not survivablilty but low damage output and the lack of a good delivery system.

My biggest issue is both. They die way to easy AND they lack damage output. At 42ppm they are a PRIME target for enemy anti-armor weapons. Why wouldn't a unit of devestators target Meganobz? basically ignore their armor and on average you can kill 3 of them outright each turn. They either need a hefty price reduction or a lot more durability ON TOP of becoming more deadly against their prime targets (Vehicles and elite infantry).

Dakkadakkadakka is not crazy with overwatch i know, i just think is a buff in something that almost every model is equal and i dont see why orks should be better there, just that
And dakkadakkadakka with deathskull kmk near the roumored fortification will be hitting 4 times, rerolling one wound and one damage rolls, which is pretty good

Also now bad moons and dakkadakkadakka gets bs5 models to hit 44% of the times, its not bs4 but its not that bad either and bs4 models go up to 67.3% which is better than bs3.
Anyway most models will be evil sunz now, +1 on the charge is too good to miss it for most models

And speaking of klans, i think this will be the common picks:

Evil sunz for every melee model, bad moons for every shooty unit or single model with high number of shots and deathskull for single shooty models with low number of shots (kannos and alike).
Also I think its worth mentioning blood axes for vehicles or high armor models; but I dont see goffs or snakebites being popular (though maybe Im wrong)

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
What if Meganobz had a rule where it converted the damage of d3 damage weapon rolls of 5 or 6 into 1 damage? I know the wording on this would be weird and difficult to track ( I had a hard enough time trying to word it myself) but it would make d3 damage weapons have to spend 2 shots per meganob.

Meganobz have three wounds, so d3 weapons already take two shots to kill them most of the time.

IMO the main issue of meganobz is not survivablilty but low damage output and the lack of a good delivery system.

My biggest issue is both. They die way to easy AND they lack damage output. At 42ppm they are a PRIME target for enemy anti-armor weapons. Why wouldn't a unit of devestators target Meganobz? basically ignore their armor and on average you can kill 3 of them outright each turn. They either need a hefty price reduction or a lot more durability ON TOP of becoming more deadly against their prime targets (Vehicles and elite infantry).

Pretty much this. I would be happy to pay for their current cost if they were actually worth it. I feel like they need a Bully Boy rule similar to what the Ironjawz brutes have, where if they target units with 3 wounds or they get to either re-roll failed hits. Throw in Cybork bodies to give them 5+ invulns. like they should have to begin with, with the changes we agreed that PK should have (either D6 damage, or no -1 to hit) Makes it so they actually can do something to heavy hitters. It always irked me that besides in 5th ed. with Nob Bikerz, that our Nobz never were able to stand toe-to-toe with other armies' elites. Or maybe even something involving them charging dealing D3 mortal wounds on if they roll 8 or higher to represent the sheer mass they have when they manage to build momentum.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
Dakkadakkadakka is not crazy with overwatch i know, i just think is a buff in something that almost every model is equal and i dont see why orks should be better there, just that
And dakkadakkadakka with deathskull kmk near the roumored fortification will be hitting 4 times, rerolling one wound and one damage rolls, which is pretty good

Also now bad moons and dakkadakkadakka gets bs5 models to hit 44% of the times, its not bs4 but its not that bad either and bs4 models go up to 67.3% which is better than bs3.
Anyway most models will be evil sunz now, +1 on the charge is too good to miss it for most models

And speaking of klans, i think this will be the common picks:

Evil sunz for every melee model, bad moons for every shooty unit or single model with high number of shots and deathskull for single shooty models with low number of shots (kannos and alike).
Also I think its worth mentioning blood axes for vehicles or high armor models; but I dont see goffs or snakebites being popular (though maybe Im wrong)

Traits are only a small part of what makes a faction work, strats are the biggest thing (say Goffs have advance and charge, whilst Evil Sun get double advance - which do you pick for your close combat troops then?) alongside warlord traits and relics.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
What if Meganobz had a rule where it converted the damage of d3 damage weapon rolls of 5 or 6 into 1 damage? I know the wording on this would be weird and difficult to track ( I had a hard enough time trying to word it myself) but it would make d3 damage weapons have to spend 2 shots per meganob.

Meganobz have three wounds, so d3 weapons already take two shots to kill them most of the time.

IMO the main issue of meganobz is not survivablilty but low damage output and the lack of a good delivery system.

My biggest issue is both. They die way to easy AND they lack damage output. At 42ppm they are a PRIME target for enemy anti-armor weapons. Why wouldn't a unit of devestators target Meganobz? basically ignore their armor and on average you can kill 3 of them outright each turn. They either need a hefty price reduction or a lot more durability ON TOP of becoming more deadly against their prime targets (Vehicles and elite infantry).

A unit of devastators shooting what weapons? If we are talking lascannons, MANz still have a 5+ armor save against those, 4th edition cybork changes next to nothing. My math also counts an average of 1 dead meganob vs 5 lascannons shooting the unit.

The only AP-4 weapons I'm seeing regularly are helblasters and elder lances. Well, and the volcano lance of a castellan, but you're probably happy if that thing is shooting MANz instead of anything else.
10 Helblasters at 15" cause 4 casualties - which is less than they do against almost all TEQ out there. The extra wound compensates pretty well for a missing 5++ save.
The only ones who do slightly better are Blightlord Terminators, and main difference between them and MANz is that blight lords are T5, have great close combat weapons (flail of your unit is dead) and shooting that actually kills things. A bare bones blightlord is also 3 more points than a meganob with klaw and kustom shoota, but slower (yes, that's possible).

Therefore, MANz do not have a weak defense for their points, they compare pretty well to a TEQ unit that has won a GT. The main difference is that blightlords can deep strike onto the battlefield and gun down a unit even if they fail their charge, and if they do make their charge, kill almost anything that's not a vehicle in combat.

In general, MANz are not a unit that should ever be jogging alongside a green tide. It should be in an army that brings walkers, battlewagons, trukks, buggies and other things that also are great targets for anti-tank as well. Target saturation has always been a core strategy for orks.

Tastyfish wrote:
Traits are only a small part of what makes a faction work, strats are the biggest thing (say Goffs have advance and charge, whilst Evil Sun get double advance - which do you pick for your close combat troops then?) alongside warlord traits and relics.

Of course, I was just talking about the rumors, we will have to see the full codex. But as it stands right now I keep my prediction.
Also there is a rumor that we will be able to deepstrike with a strat and if we keep da jump then the +1 to charge is still huge for the units that will be teleported
Anyway we will have to wait and see

Correct me if I am wrong

5 Lascannon shots x.666 (adding in the 1 shot at 2+ to hit) = about 3.5. Wounding on 2s (S9 vs T4) = 3+ wounds. -3 AP means 5+ to save meaning usually 1 saved at the absolute most so that means 2 Dead Meganobz since D6 damage = 3.5 on average.

Unless I am mistaken that means a single Dev squad armed with Lascannons just made back half their points in a single shooting phase and that is without all the craploads of rerolls that Space Marines always have. Throw in those buffs and it is easily 3 dead Meganobz a turn, and on top of that if you have a unit of 5 and you lose 3 you now have a 1/3rd chance to lose more to morale (1/2 if you kill the boss Nob).

My point is that they lack invuln and FNP saves organically and since they are both SLOW, easy targets and soft (no saves beyond their 2+) they become prime targets for enemy units with multiple damage weapons which tend to eat through that 2+ and 3wounds easy

Okay. I used anydice, and assumed they were within range of a Captain and a Lieutenant, so rerolling hits of 1s and wounds of 1.

I also assume that one Lascannon benefits from a Signum, but that the Armorium Cherub has already been used. So that's one 2+ rerolling Lascannon and three 3+ rerolling 1s Lascannons, wounding on 2s rerolling, with a 5+ save.

They have the following odds:
1 Wound...........95.96%
2 Wounds.........75.86%
3 Wounds.........38.86%
4 Wounds.........8.97%

Then, multiply that by 2/3, since that's the odds of gibbing a Meganob.

So that's about a 2/3 chance of taking one down, about a fifty-fifty shot of taking two down, about 1/4 of taking three down, and a very slim chance of taking four down.

Average would be right about two Meganobz dead, not three. And that's with a Captain and Lieutenant.

I didn't add the 2+ roll from the sergeant, but we both missed the part where devs can only have 4 lascannons in the first place.

So let's just assume 5 lascannons from wherever (doesn't really matter in the first place)

5 shots
3.33 hits
2.77 wounds
1.85 unsaved wounds

To kill two MANz, you must roll 3+ on both your damage rolls, which has a chance of 44.44% to be happening.
So, on average, you do not kill two MANz with five lascannons. Averages betray your perception here, as rolling 3+ two times is not the same as rolling a 6+, as the result 6 and 1 would leave 1 meganob alive, despite dealing 7 damage.

My argument for the invulnerable saves was that you wouldn't be using your 5++ against lascannons, plasma, dark reapers, battlecannons and many, many other weapons anyways.
If there are other ork vehicles around, there is no reason why those multi-wound weapons should be shooting MANz instead of them, plus there are multiple ways to provide them with a 5++ save against shooting.

FNP is not needed because they already have an extra wound. A 2+ T4 model with three wounds is more durable than a 2+ T4 models with two wounds and 5+ FNP against almost all weapons. The only reason why blightlord terminators (2+/4++/5+++) are more durable than MANz against helblasters (S8 AP-4 D2) is T5, not FNP or the invulnerable save.

You aren't assuming a Signum, a Captain, or a Lieutenant. Which are pretty damn common.

SemperMortis wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong

5 Lascannon shots x.666 (adding in the 1 shot at 2+ to hit) = about 3.5. Wounding on 2s (S9 vs T4) = 3+ wounds. -3 AP means 5+ to save meaning usually 1 saved at the absolute most so that means 2 Dead Meganobz since D6 damage = 3.5 on average.

Unless I am mistaken that means a single Dev squad armed with Lascannons just made back half their points in a single shooting phase and that is without all the craploads of rerolls that Space Marines always have. Throw in those buffs and it is easily 3 dead Meganobz a turn, and on top of that if you have a unit of 5 and you lose 3 you now have a 1/3rd chance to lose more to morale (1/2 if you kill the boss Nob).

My point is that they lack invuln and FNP saves organically and since they are both SLOW, easy targets and soft (no saves beyond their 2+) they become prime targets for enemy units with multiple damage weapons which tend to eat through that 2+ and 3wounds easy

Even though I agree meganobz need either a good discount or a good boost your maths fail when saying that a single d6 roll is a 3.5 so every wound is a dead meganob. If you get 2 unsaved wounds you have 1/36 chance of not losing any meganobz and 19/36 of losing just one, so thats a 56% chance of not losing 2.
5 lascannons shooting and rerolling 1s (one hitting on 2) is an average of 4.037 hits, and average of 3.93 wounds, 2.64 after saves.
So... the numbers here are not exact but thats around a 19% chance of losing 3, a 58.3% chance of losing 2, 21.5% chance of losing 1 and 1.2% chance of losing 0, on average with all the rerolls

 Grotsnik1 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong

5 Lascannon shots x.666 (adding in the 1 shot at 2+ to hit) = about 3.5. Wounding on 2s (S9 vs T4) = 3+ wounds. -3 AP means 5+ to save meaning usually 1 saved at the absolute most so that means 2 Dead Meganobz since D6 damage = 3.5 on average.

Unless I am mistaken that means a single Dev squad armed with Lascannons just made back half their points in a single shooting phase and that is without all the craploads of rerolls that Space Marines always have. Throw in those buffs and it is easily 3 dead Meganobz a turn, and on top of that if you have a unit of 5 and you lose 3 you now have a 1/3rd chance to lose more to morale (1/2 if you kill the boss Nob).

My point is that they lack invuln and FNP saves organically and since they are both SLOW, easy targets and soft (no saves beyond their 2+) they become prime targets for enemy units with multiple damage weapons which tend to eat through that 2+ and 3wounds easy

Even though I agree meganobz need either a good discount or a good boost your maths fail when saying that a single d6 roll is a 3.5 so every wound is a dead meganob. If you get 2 unsaved wounds you have 1/36 chance of not losing any meganobz and 19/36 of losing just one, so thats a 56% chance of not losing 2.
5 lascannons shooting and rerolling 1s (one hitting on 2) is an average of 4.037 hits, and average of 3.93 wounds, 2.64 after saves.
So... the numbers here are not exact but thats around a 19% chance of losing 3, a 58.3% chance of losing 2, 21.5% chance of losing 1 and 1.2% chance of losing 0, on average with all the rerolls

Or on average losing 2 meganobz