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 lolman1c wrote:
... XD Nothing wrong with players wanting competitive 40k but to make the whole game for everyone competitive is also wrong and hypocritical of a lot of people here.

Where does this stigma come? Out of all the gaming communities I've been in the "Game wont work for casuals if balanced for competitive" train is the strongest in 40k.
As Jidmah brought up - there's solid evidence that suggests the contrary AND a 'competitively balanced game' means your casual lists don't have to change when coming against another power creeped list.

If your Lootas are just as useful your KMK's does that ruin your fun? Whereas if they aren't as useful as one another that unit is *dead* to a competitive player.

Please, just because I don't understand your train of thought - can you give me an example how balancing for 'competitive' ruins casual gaming?

Basically that train of thought comes from GW force feeding it to their fans for three decades, up to the point where designers openly insulted competitive gamers in interviews for playing the game wrong.

Some people see the game as an RPG (similar to D&D miniatures) where competitive gaming is actually toxic to the game play as the goal of those games is not to defeat your GM or your players. But even in those games, a solid and balanced rule-set benefits everyone. WH40k has not been a RPG for a long time though, and it has severely lacked support for that kind of games, no matter how often GW told us to "forge our narrative". Narrative games boil down to regular games with background information and some additional rules.
A board game with multiple missions that build on each other really doesn't do any less.

Last but not least, many people think balancing equals streamlining. Streamlining does hurt narrative play, when things get too abstract, it's harder to immerse yourself in the game, which takes the fun out of it. A good example is when D&D changed some rogue skill that was supposed to throw random items into your opponents path to slow them into a 3 feet circular AOE that added a slow status to anyone hit.
I don't think that we are in any danger of excessive streamlining this edition though. After the indices did some massive cuts, GW went right back to bloating everything with random rules again like they always have

I think the bigger worry is that if people take ludicrous spammy lists that have no basis fluff wise then those unit are going to get "nerfed" or what ever. So the FAQ brings out limitations that stop people abusing these units or loopholes or actually makes the unit worse. So the rules are being changed to stop that behaviour, these changes affect everyone even those who would never abuse the rules that way. So you end up with restrictions like the rule of three which most people accept as a rule, not a match play suggestion. Limiting army choices for people who aren't try to win at all costs but are trying to build fluffy lists. I for instance have a marine army. I choose to play it primaris only due to fluff reasons. That limits me but being limited to three max of my limited choices hampers me more. So some one taking 7 tyrants or 10 dark reaper squads has made it difficult for me to play a fluffy at,y in bigger battles. As I said before these are genuine concerns as it really happens and all we casual fluffy gamers ask is that GW doesn't just listen to the vocal minority that is the tournememt community. They seem to be doing this ok right now. As we have all discussed before balance can be achieved in many ways not just limitations and streamlining.

Now should we get back to orks.

How about this:

General rule: Dakka Dakka Dakka: a roll of a natural 6 to hit when shooting is always considered a hit regardless of modifiers, additionally, for every natural roll of 6 in the shooting phase, infantry models without artillery can fire another shot with the same weapon (this extra shots can not generate extra shots)

Add a stratagem that lets you get the extra shots with a non infantry unit

Benefits from clans:

-Goffs: reroll 1s to hit (shooting and combat)
-Blood axes: infantry gets +1 extra arm in cover
-Evil sunz: infantry can disembarc from an open topped vehicle that has moved if they started the turn inside it, but cant move any further.
Vehicles get +1" M
-Bad moons: every item from the wargear chart (shooty weapons, souped-up weapons, eavy weapons and choppy weapons) cost 5 points less, to a minimum of 0
-Deathskulls: +1 to the inv. save or a 6++ if the model doesnt have one
-Snakebites: +1S and reroll 1s to hit in the fight phase
-New clan focused on shooting: reroll 1s to hit when shooting and Dakka Dakka Dakka gives extra shots on rolls of 5+

Give all HQ and all nobz and meganobz access to cybork body (5++, 5 points)

Big mek bs4 and SAG 2d6 shots

Burnas, tankbustas and lootas 5+ arm

Burnas 1d6 shots

Komandos get to apear the first turn (or at least a stratagem for them that works as "strike from the shadows" does)

Bikes cause a -1 to hit penalty when shooting at them and cost down to 25 for regular bikes and 40 for nobz

Dakkajet down to 80 (140 with 6 supa shootas)

Mayor points drop in the other 3 planes

Deffkoptas mayor point drop (~20-25) make bigomms optional at an extra cost, kopta rokkits down to 20

Points drop for skorchas 15, kombiskorchas 17, kombilaunchas 12, rack of rokkits 20, and rokkit  launchas 10

Probably points drop for gorkanaut, morkanaut and stompa but dont really care for them

Points drop for all mek gunz except for the kmk, and make the ork player decide where to put all the results for the bubblechukka

Give killa kans some moral inmunity

Battlewagon points drop to ~120, or to ~140 and 3+ arm


What do you think, would it be too much? Maybe the points drops combined with the benefit of the clan+Dakka Dakka dakka might be a little op, but I dont think each of those buffs separately would do enough, thoughts?
(Anyway I know im just dreaming, we wont get even half of this)

Just to save you do the math, bs5 rerolling 1s and getting extra shots with 5 and 6 would end up meaning a number of hits equal to 53% of original shots, which means basically giving bs4, with a penalty of -1 or more, it would end up being 25.7% of original shots, so a mid line between bs5 and bs6, I dont think it is too crazy, I made it only for infantry because mek guns or Dakkajets would have been op though (would have ment 80% of shots). Gretchins would still get 80% from original shots, but those are s3 ap- shots, so I wouldnt be too worried

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
How about this:

General rule: Dakka Dakka Dakka: a roll of a natural 6 to hit when shooting is always considered a hit regardless of modifiers, additionally, for every natural roll of 6 in the shooting phase, the model can fire another shot with the same weapon (this extra shots can not generate extra shots)

Interesting spin on the 6+ always hits thing, but are you aware of the math behind this? When shooting at -1 to hit or more the extra shots would do very little. An army-wide extra shot on 6+ is a nice idea, though we should probably exclude some units from this (thinking of TB mostly).

Goffs: reroll 1s to hit (shooting and combat)

Does a lot for combat and little for shooting. I like it, but doesn't really feel goff-y. Still a very elegant buff, maybe find a better place for it?

Blood axes: infantry gets +1 extra arm in cover

Orks don't get cover that often, I'd rather have something like "ORK INFANTRY units are in cover unless they have shot or charged this turn". This would also synergize well with kommandoz as they would receive their cover bonus in the open.

Evil sunz: infantry can disembarc from open topped vehicles if they started the turn inside them, but cant move any further.
Vehicles get +1" M

I like it, but would extend the movement bonus to bikes.

Bad moons: every item from the wargear chart (shooty weapons, souped-up weapons, eavy weapons and choppy weapons) cost 5 points less, to a minimum of 0

While a good idea, not compatible to games outside of matched play. I like the spirit of "flashier gitz" though, so I'd rather reward players for buying expensive upgrades. For example, you could allow all characters, nobz, MANz and boss nobz to shoot twice.

Deathskulls: +1 to the inv. save or a 6+ if the model doesnt have one

I'd change this to the generic "everyone has 6+ FNP" trait everyone has. I really hope Orkimedes' Mega-Force-Field makes it into the relic list, allowing for one 4++ KFF in the army anyways.
In fluff, the most featured units for deffskulls are lootaz. burnas, gretchin and meks plus their creations- 6+++ benefits that play style, since and army made of lootaz, gretchin, kanz, dreads and nauts would benefit a lot from a 6+++ save. A doc wouldn't really fit well in that army since the walkers don't benefit from it, the lootaz are too far away and gretchin aren't worth buying a character just for then.

Snakebites: +1S and reroll 1s to hit in the fight phase

This sounds more like something the goff clan should have. Since most iconic units for snakebites have either gone the way of the dodo or are FW only, I'm not sure how to support their play style. What's left is weird boyz and runtherds, so maybe they could give them some sort of a buff.
A clan that entirely neglects shooting isn't viable in this edition, just look at how well WE are doing right now.

New clan focused on shooting: reroll 1s to hit when shooting and Dakka Dakka Dakka gives extra shots on rolls of 5+

Both deff skulls and bad moons are focused on shooting though. This would be a great trait for Freebootas though.

Give all HQ and all nobz and meganobz access to cybork body (5++, 5 points)

Ironically, they already have access to that. But yeah, it should go back to 5++ saves.

Komandos get to apear the first turn (or at least a stratagem for them that works as "strike from the shadows" does)

I don't think GW wants to go back to alpha-strike hammer, so I don't think they want us to start the game with putting 75 boyz into charge range.
I'd have something that extends kommandoz beyond "deep striking boyz", like reducing leadership or some new grenades.

make the ork player decide where to put all the results for the bubblechukka

That would kind of defeat the whole point of the bubblechukka and make it way overpowered. It's probably one of the most well designed "fun"-units in the game. Don't touch it, just reduce points to match the other guns.

Give killa kans some moral inmunity

Warboss? I really think moral for kanz is done pretty well this edition, they just don't shoot enough for their points.

What do you think, would it be too much? Maybe the points drops combined with the benefit of the clan+Dakka Dakka dakka might be a little op, but I dont think each of those buffs separately would do enough, thoughts?
(Anyway I know im just dreaming, we wont get even half of this)

Well, your point costs are kind of arbitrary, so I won't go into the in detail, but there is nothing among them I wouldn't make cheaper as well. Otherwise, quite a bunch of great ideas in there.

 Jidmah wrote:

I'd have something that extends kommandoz beyond "deep striking boyz", like reducing leadership or some new grenades.

1). Smokebomm (when Kommandos are deployed, until the next turn enemy suffers a -1 to hit modifier when targetting them or other [kommando] unit within 3") (although that might be overpowered and smokebomm should only affect kommandos themselves)
2). Flash-bang stikk (Select an enemy unit within 9" when Kommandos emerge. Targetted enemy unit can't overwatch this turn.)
3). Burnabomm (Has profile like a stikkbomb, but in addition, enemy unit that was targetted with it has to move 9" or further away from their initial position during their movement phase or roll a D6 for every model and suffer a mortal wound for every 1)

Also giving kommandos access to special kind of shootas would be neat. Something that has mean profile when firing within 10" to synergise with their deep strike ability.

I really, really like those.

The smokebomm could just be grenade d6 and apply -1 to whatever it hits. You get one average hit out of it and could reduce the shooting of whatever you think is the most dangerous to you.

Special kommando shootas would also be nice. Something like the shotguns cultists and scouts get would be nice:
12" pistol 2 S4 AP0 +1 strength when within half range

 Jidmah wrote:

Interesting spin on the 6+ always hits thing, but are you aware of the math behind this? When shooting at -1 to hit or more the extra shots would do very little. An army-wide extra shot on 6+ is a nice idea, though we should probably exclude some units from this (thinking of TB mostly).

TB shooting at a vehicle getting extra shots on a 5+ would end up making a number of hits equal to 85% of the original shots. 10 Tb shooting a leman russ would be 8.5 hits, 5.61 wounds, 3.7 wounds after saves so 11.1 damage in total. If ig uses the strat to give it a +1 save then you end up with 8.41 damage. Tankbustas would be 150 points and the leman russ is 122 points (+ weaponry). IDK if its that op, we have serious lack of antitank tec

Love those rules! But I would hope that the Evil Sunz rule would apply to boarding planks instead of a clan. My non-sunz trukk boyz want to get out, too!

Sunz can get +1 movement across the board instead...stacking with rpj of course.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Love those rules! But I would hope that the Evil Sunz rule would apply to boarding planks instead of a clan. My non-sunz trukk boyz want to get out, too!

Sunz can get +1 movement across the board instead...stacking with rpj of course.

This seems utterly underwhelming.

How about we get to leave combat and charge back in/shoot? Or move and fire assault weapons with no penalty?

From a fluff perspective clan rules I think should be more like,

evil Sunz increase advancing, maybe a bonus to advancing and shooting, they are about going fast on vehicles, not getting off.

Badmoon, fancier kit, extra relic or some thing, maybe increased armour save.

Deathskulls. Shooting buff, like the 6++ maybe a painboy and runtherd buff. Increased abilities. Bionics?

Goffs, extra strengh or attack like the old skar boyz.

Snakebites. They need boarboys back to have any flavour. Keener grots maybe. Free runtherds ???

Blood axes, some kind of bolter drill or moral boost, iron will discipline kind of thing. Camo isn't their thing in the traditional sense. It was always garish, a lavish attempt to look military. Human advisors would be great.

No extra clans, their are six main clans always have had always should be.

Freebooterz should be added but not lose clan abilities for detachments. A bit like tech priests in guard regiments or scourges in Kabal lists. If like to see a pirate unit too.

I'm am primarily evil Sunz at heart and would love clan rules that allowed me to take an army full of bikes and buggies with the odd truck of boyz too.

Kommandos should get special kit but go back to being small squads that infiltrate not deep strike.

I like the flash-bang idea, it'd make kommandoz more interesting, honestly a rule like that could probably be in place for a lot of other task-force units in different factions. The other's seem a like they require a little too much planning ahead for orks.

I've shared my views on Clans before, here's some improvements on my precious ideas...

Goffs (Brutal/Scary):
Da Meanest: For every unit that fails a morale test within 1" of a Warboss an additional model must flee from that same unit.
Bad Boyz: For every point Tougher than its opponent an attacking Ork unit may make an additional reroll on its failed WS checks against said opponent.
Get Back Eere!: Before an opponent moves out of engagement range, Ork infantry models within 1" of the retreating opponent may deal 1 Attack at -2 WS.

Bloodaxes (Cunning/Sneaky):
Snik'em Behind: On a charge Ork Infantry receive +1 Attack against any unit pre-engaged in melee.
Real Sneaky Like: Infantry containing 10 or less models become -1 to hit when in cover.
Fight diz Way: When a unit of Ork Infantry disengages you may roll a D6 for -1 CP, on a 2+ that unit will retain/reacquire its ability to charge and shoot.

Badmoon (shooty/rich):
Protect Ya Gobz: Infantry may take an additional shot when shooting at a target within 6"
Flashiest Gear: At the start of the game any unit of Nobz may gain +1 BS if they equipped with a "Souped-Up Weapon" for -1 CP. This cannot be stacked.
Spare Teef: Ork boyz may take a free "'Eavy Weapon" in addition to any purchased

Deathskullz (Lucky/Hoarders):
Lucky Gitz: When using a CP, roll a D6, on a 6 you regain the spent CP.
Free Scrap: Infantry receive +1 WS verses Vehicles
Looted Wagon: At the start of a game any Vehicle may be declared a "Looted Wagon" for -1 CP. That vehicle may take a free "'Eavy Weapon" and must take one +D2 and one -1 on it's T/M/A stats, this cannot be stacked.

Snakebites (Savages/Venom):
Savage Infusiasm: Ork infantry Unit may take +D3 Movement for -1BS that turn.
Untamed Energy: +1 to Psychic Tests.
(Edit) Snake Juice: At the start of a game for -2 CP Any Ork SNAKEBITE Elite Unit may deal +1 Wound with any Melee Weapon

Evil Sunz (Racers/Loons):
No Brakes: At the start of a game any Vehicle may be declared having "No Brakes", any inch of a Charge unmoved will provide the unit an additional attack that round, but on a WS check of 1, the attaker suffers a wound.
Da Red Button: For -1 CP any Vehicle with the rule "Explodes" may detonate at any time on 2+
Pit Stop: When a Vehicle does not move it may recover a Wound on 2+

Freebooters (Untrustworthy/Raiders):
Rotten Allies: Any Warboss/Nob/Flash-Git may shoot at a target engaged in close-combat, however; for each failed BS check of 1, inflict a wound to a unit engaging the target.
Raiding Party: Any Unit that has disembarked receives + 1 to attack for that turn..
Sky Fight'a: Flying Units receive +1 BS when attacking a Flying Vehicle.

There's some really good ideas posted here!

 JawRippa wrote:

1). Smokebomm (when Kommandos are deployed, until the next turn enemy suffers a -1 to hit modifier when targetting them or other [kommando] unit within 3" (although that might be overpowered and smokebomm should only affect kommandos themselves)
2). Flash-bang stikk (Select an enemy unit within 9" when Kommandos emerge. Targetted enemy unit can't overwatch this turn.)
3). Burnabomm (Has profile like a stikkbomb, but in addition, enemy unit that was targetted with it has to move 9" or further away from their initial position during their movement phase or roll a D6 for every model and suffer a mortal wound for every 1)

I'm a total fan of these, they are an interesting decision the player has to make (The game in general needs more of these). But how would you put it so Orks dont spam MSU? I'd instead make them a command stratagem for Kommandos.

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:

Spoiler:

Goffs (Brutal/Scary):
Da Meanest: For every unit that fails a morale test within 1" of a Warboss an additional model must flee from that same unit.
Bad Boyz: For every point Tougher than its opponent an attacking Ork unit may make an additional reroll on its failed WS checks against said opponent.
Get Back Eere!: Before an opponent moves out of engagement range, Ork infantry models within 1" of the retreating opponent may deal 1 Attack at -2 WS.

Bloodaxes (Cunning/Sneaky):
Snik'em Behind: On a charge Ork Infantry receive +1 Attack against any unit pre-engaged in melee.
Real Sneaky Like: Infantry containing 10 or less models become -1 to hit when in cover.
Fight diz Way: When a unit of Ork Infantry disengages you may roll a D6 for -1 CP, on a 2+ that unit will retain/reacquire its ability to charge and shoot.

Badmoon (shooty/rich):
Protect Ya Gobz: Infantry may take an additional shot when shooting at a target within 6"
Flashiest Gear: At the start of the game any unit of Nobz may gain +1 BS if they equipped with a "Souped-Up Weapon" for -1 CP. This cannot be stacked.
Spare Teef: Ork boyz may take a free "'Eavy Weapon" in addition to any purchased

Deathskullz (Lucky/Hoarders):
Lucky Gitz: When using a CP, roll a D6, on a 6 you regain the spent CP.
Free Scrap: Infantry receive +1 WS verses Vehicles
Looted Wagon: At the start of a game any Vehicle may be declared a "Looted Wagon" for -1 CP. That vehicle may take a free "'Eavy Weapon" and must take one +D2 and one -1 on it's T/M/A stats, this cannot be stacked.

Snakebites (Savages/Tribal):
Savage Infusiasm: Ork infantry Unit may take +D3 Movement for -1BS that turn.
Untamed Energy: +1 to Psychic Tests.
Trophy Hunters: All Infantry receive +1 WS vs Monsters

Evil Sunz (Racers/Loons):
No Brakes: At the start of a game any Vehicle may be declared having "No Brakes", any inch of a Charge unmoved will provide the unit an additional attack that round, but on a WS check of 1, the attaker suffers a wound.
Da Red Button: For -1 CP any Vehicle with the rule "Explodes" may detonate at any time on 2+
Pit Stop: When a Vehicle does not move it may recover a Wound on 2+

Freebooters (Untrustworthy/Raiders):
Rotten Allies: Any Warboss/Nob/Flash-Git may shoot at a target engaged in close-combat, however; for each failed BS check of 1, inflict a wound to a unit engaging the target.
Raiding Party: Any Unit that has disembarked receives + 1 to attack for that turn..
Sky Fight'a: Flying Units receive +1 BS when attacking a Flying Vehicle.

More great stuff, but I feel like Orks should be the exception to the current 'Subfaction' rule set; allowing for Goffs, Badmoons etc to be in a single detachment.
Otherwise we will see a lot of Battalion detachments ( 90 points for 3x gretchin squads! ) for max CP and subfaction abuse.

For example, we remove the currently baked in "+1 attack while above 20" to the Ork Boyz and have these as subfaction traits:
- Goff Bully Boyz: Infantry and Vehicle units gain +1 attack per 5 models in the unit; If the unit is an Ork Boys, Storm boyz or Kommandos unit they instead get +1 attack per 10 models.
- Snakebites Poisoned Choppas: Infantry and Vehicle units may instead wound on a 4+ during the fight phase

And then we allow CP to spent to 'improve' these subfaction traits
- Badmoons 1CP Extra Teef: Use this stratagem before battle begins. Select a single wargear item purchased by a Klan < BADMOONS > unit, it instead costs 0. This only effects one Wargear purchase per use; can be used multiple times.
- Blood Axes 2CP Painted Purple: Use this stratagem before battle begins. Select a single Klan < BLOODAXES > < Infantry > or < Vehicle > unit in your army, all ranged weapons firing at this unit receive -1 to hit rolls. Can be purchased multiple times. For each additional use double the CP cost. Effect does not stack on the same unit.

And on top of that we change how WAAAAAGH! Works, it is now a stratagem that changes effect based on Klan

WAAAAAGH 3CP - Use at the start of one of your turns, all Ork < Klan > units gain an effect from below until the end of your turn. Double the CP cost of WAAAAAAGH each time this is used.
- Ork < BADMOONS > units Klan generate an additional hit on a ranged hit roll of 6+
- Ork < GOFF > units receive a +1 to all melee wound rolls
- At the end of the fight phase, if an enemy unit took an unsaved wound from an Ork < SNAKEBITES > unit they take an additional 1d3 mortal wounds
- Ork < SPEED FREEKS > units may treat all advance rolls a 6. Additionally they can charge after advancing but if they do so - roll a d6 for each model in that unit, on a 1 they take a single mortal wound. This effect instead deals 1d3 mortal wounds to < VEHICLE > units

 Eonfuzz wrote:

I'm a total fan of these, they are an interesting decision the player has to make (The game in general needs more of these). But how would you put it so Orks dont spam MSU? I'd instead make them a command stratagem for Kommandos.

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:

Spoiler:

Goffs (Brutal/Scary):
Da Meanest: For every unit that fails a morale test within 1" of a Warboss an additional model must flee from that same unit.
Bad Boyz: For every point Tougher than its opponent an attacking Ork unit may make an additional reroll on its failed WS checks against said opponent.
Get Back Eere!: Before an opponent moves out of engagement range, Ork infantry models within 1" of the retreating opponent may deal 1 Attack at -2 WS.

Bloodaxes (Cunning/Sneaky):
Snik'em Behind: On a charge Ork Infantry receive +1 Attack against any unit pre-engaged in melee.
Real Sneaky Like: Infantry containing 10 or less models become -1 to hit when in cover.
Fight diz Way: When a unit of Ork Infantry disengages you may roll a D6 for -1 CP, on a 2+ that unit will retain/reacquire its ability to charge and shoot.

Badmoon (shooty/rich):
Protect Ya Gobz: Infantry may take an additional shot when shooting at a target within 6"
Flashiest Gear: At the start of the game any unit of Nobz may gain +1 BS if they equipped with a "Souped-Up Weapon" for -1 CP. This cannot be stacked.
Spare Teef: Ork boyz may take a free "'Eavy Weapon" in addition to any purchased

Deathskullz (Lucky/Hoarders):
Lucky Gitz: When using a CP, roll a D6, on a 6 you regain the spent CP.
Free Scrap: Infantry receive +1 WS verses Vehicles
Looted Wagon: At the start of a game any Vehicle may be declared a "Looted Wagon" for -1 CP. That vehicle may take a free "'Eavy Weapon" and must take one +D2 and one -1 on it's T/M/A stats, this cannot be stacked.

Snakebites (Savages/Tribal):
Savage Infusiasm: Ork infantry Unit may take +D3 Movement for -1BS that turn.
Untamed Energy: +1 to Psychic Tests.
Trophy Hunters: All Infantry receive +1 WS vs Monsters

Evil Sunz (Racers/Loons):
No Brakes: At the start of a game any Vehicle may be declared having "No Brakes", any inch of a Charge unmoved will provide the unit an additional attack that round, but on a WS check of 1, the attaker suffers a wound.
Da Red Button: For -1 CP any Vehicle with the rule "Explodes" may detonate at any time on 2+
Pit Stop: When a Vehicle does not move it may recover a Wound on 2+

Freebooters (Untrustworthy/Raiders):
Rotten Allies: Any Warboss/Nob/Flash-Git may shoot at a target engaged in close-combat, however; for each failed BS check of 1, inflict a wound to a unit engaging the target.
Raiding Party: Any Unit that has disembarked receives + 1 to attack for that turn..
Sky Fight'a: Flying Units receive +1 BS when attacking a Flying Vehicle.

More great stuff, but I feel like Orks should be the exception to the current 'Subfaction' rule set; allowing for Goffs, Badmoons etc to be in a single detachment.
Otherwise we will see a lot of Battalion detachments ( 90 points for 3x gretchin squads! ) for max CP and subfaction abuse.

For example, we remove the currently baked in "+1 attack while above 20" to the Ork Boyz and have these as subfaction traits:
- Goff Bully Boyz: Infantry and Vehicle units gain +1 attack per 5 models in the unit; If the unit is an Ork Boys, Storm boyz or Kommandos unit they instead get +1 attack per 10 models.
- Snakebites Poisoned Choppas: Infantry and Vehicle units may instead wound on a 4+ during the fight phase

And then we allow CP to spent to 'improve' these subfaction traits
- Badmoons 1CP Extra Teef: Use this stratagem before battle begins. Select a single wargear item purchased by a Klan < BADMOONS > unit, it instead costs 0. This only effects one Wargear purchase per use; can be used multiple times.
- Blood Axes 2CP Painted Purple: Use this stratagem before battle begins. Select a single Klan < BLOODAXES > < Infantry > or < Vehicle > unit in your army, all ranged weapons firing at this unit receive -1 to hit rolls. Can be purchased multiple times. For each additional use double the CP cost. Effect does not stack on the same unit.

And on top of that we change how WAAAAAGH! Works, it is now a stratagem that changes effect based on Klan

WAAAAAGH 3CP - Use at the start of one of your turns, all Ork < Klan > units gain an effect from below until the end of your turn. Double the CP cost of WAAAAAAGH each time this is used.
- Ork < BADMOONS > units Klan generate an additional hit on a ranged hit roll of 6+
- Ork < GOFF > units receive a +1 to all melee wound rolls
- At the end of the fight phase, if an enemy unit took an unsaved wound from an Ork < SNAKEBITES > unit they take an additional 1d3 mortal wounds
- Ork < SPEED FREEKS > units may treat all advance rolls a 6. Additionally they can charge after advancing but if they do so - roll a d6 for each model in that unit, on a 1 they take a single mortal wound. This effect instead deals 1d3 mortal wounds to < VEHICLE > units

Is kinda strange using cp for free points, id rather see an auto discount as a general bad moons trait and then a strat "extra ammo" that gives a unit extra shots

How about this for a klan trait:

Goff Klan
Sharp Choppas
When rolling to wound with a Choppa (Choppa, Big Choppa, etc) a roll of 6+ improves the AP characteristic of the attack by -1 (i.e. AP0 becomes AP-1, AP-1 becomes AP-2).

In the drukhari codex there's a bonus for coven units that improves the AP by -1. It's more powerful than the "Sharp Choppas" idea since it's applied to all units and all melee weapons (with the exception of relics) that belong to that detachment.

I'd like something like that as Bad Moon or Deathskull bonus: super bullets with a -1AP bonus for example would be very fluffy, and something similar was even included in 3rd edition codex.

I'm not sure if -1 AP on shoota boyz and warbikes wouldn't be too strong.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm not sure if -1 AP on shoota boyz and warbikes wouldn't be too strong.

The only reason I could think it would be OP is just because Shoota boyz are cheap...but really they wouldn't be OP simply because against a T4 Tactical Marine (NOT IN COVER) 30 Shoota Boyz with -1 AP kill a grand total of 5 Marines. 180pts shooting managed to kill 65pts. That is almost exactly where the 1/3rd rule says it should be (it should take 3pts of shooting to kill 1pt of models)

For warbikes? not even close. Beyond the hideous short range, complete lack of durability, and no effective point (they aren't good at CC and not that good at shooting) 6 Warbikes against T4 Tac Marines (NOT IN COVER) kill 4 Marines. So 162pts of Warbikers kill 52pts of Marines.

So -1 to AP faction wide wouldn't really be broken, it makes those units almost where they should be in regards to shooting, but definitely not OP.


its ironic that we are talking about shooting buffs and thinking it would be OP for us and then we do the math and realize its still utter crap

Maybe a permanent -1AP for the entire detachment could be too strong, but I think orks need huge buffs to pretty much every unit that is not part of a green tide. What about a stratagem that affects a single unit for 1 CP? I think it would be very nice and definitely not game breaking.

It doesn't make sense to me that a shoota would ever have more penetrating power than a bolter. Orks just need more shots.

 JimOnMars wrote:
It doesn't make sense to me that a shoota would ever have more penetrating power than a bolter. Orks just need more shots.

SM don't have crazy meks that are able to assemble eveything, even penetrating bullets if they believe they work

In 3rd edition threre was a unit of shoota boyz that counted as elite which could customized their shootas in order to get some bonuses: +1S, -1AP or a different type of weapon (rapid fire 2 instead of assault 2 I think but I don't remember at all) so it would make perfect sense, it's already been done in the past.

Has anyone submitted some of these requests to GW lately?

Does anyone know how far they are in their process of finishing the codex?

 Jorghan wrote:
Has anyone submitted some of these requests to GW lately?

Does anyone know how far they are in their process of finishing the codex?

They probably haven't started, and don't care about our input and will push out the index with updates from FAQ/Errata, copy paste some strategems from other factions, give us a different gimmick and then call it mission complete. Bright ray of sunshine I know but its May and GW hasn't even mentioned when our Codex is coming out and some factions have several SUB factions already released for their armies to pick and choose from and we are sitting here waiting on a main codex and being forced to field green tide or lose.

GW will have the codex locked down at at the printers or possibly on a boat heading back by now if its a summer release

I don't really want that much:

- Something to deal with heavy armor and vehicles = some ways of reducing armor, like my Sharp Choppas idea.

- Army wide 6+++, buffed to 5+++ with a Painboy. In the fluff Orks are described as feeling next to no pain, yet they have crappy FnP options at the moment. Even the flimsy Drukhari are dancing around with 5+++.

- Power klaws straight 3 damage

- A natural 6 is always a hit, because well, Orks don't really aim anyway.

- Generally just WAY MORE DAKKA. Shootas assault 4, big shoota assault 6, sluggas pistol 2, etc.

- Cheaper walkers to make them viable. Or rather, cheaper everything outside of Boyz.

- Klan tactics more of a fluffy seasoning than game breaking op stuff, since they really don't know how to balance different tactics...

Okay that was quite a few, but I don't think any of these or even all would break Orks but would make them that much more bearable to play with.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jorghan wrote:
Has anyone submitted some of these requests to GW lately?

Does anyone know how far they are in their process of finishing the codex?

They probably haven't started, and don't care about our input and will push out the index with updates from FAQ/Errata, copy paste some strategems from other factions, give us a different gimmick and then call it mission complete. Bright ray of sunshine I know but its May and GW hasn't even mentioned when our Codex is coming out and some factions have several SUB factions already released for their armies to pick and choose from and we are sitting here waiting on a main codex and being forced to field green tide or lose.

LOL I completely agree with this. But anyway, lets just hope for the best and expect the worst

 Weazel wrote:
I don't really want that much:

- Something to deal with heavy armor and vehicles = some ways of reducing armor, like my Sharp Choppas idea.

- Power klaws straight 3 damage

IMHO we just need a stratagem that makes our pks and Killsaws (and other similar power fists) cause double damage to vehicles and thats it.

- Army wide 6+++, buffed to 5+++ with a Painboy. In the fluff Orks are described as feeling next to no pain, yet they have crappy FnP options at the moment. Even the flimsy Drukhari are dancing around with 5+++.

If cybork body comes out again for all our nobz and hqs (giving a 5++), and Painboy gives a 5+++ (with an increase in points but making the PK optional) I would be happy already

- A natural 6 is always a hit, because well, Orks don't really aim anyway.

- Generally just WAY MORE DAKKA. Shootas assault 4, big shoota assault 6, sluggas pistol 2, etc

Yeah, double shots for all the machine guns and pistols, and a serious decrease in points for rockets and others (except kmk)

- Cheaper walkers to make them viable. Or rather, cheaper everything outside of Boyz.

Yes pls.

- Klan tactics more of a fluffy seasoning than game breaking op stuff, since they really don't know how to balance different tactics...

Goffs: rerolls in combat
Bad moons: extra ammo "all rolls of 6+ generate extra shots" or "once per game you can shoot twice"
Evil suns: infantry gets to disembark after mooving, vehicles and bikes get extra spd
Deathskulls: each unit can reroll one die a turn (lootas anyone?)
Snakebites: +1 A when charging
Blood axe: +1 save in cover, I know you are not always in cover, but when you are nobz are saving on a 2+, regular Boys on a 4+ Komandos on a 3+ and snikrot on a 2+, seems good but not game breaking

With this and a couple more of tweaks (big mek bs4, maybe the kff coming out of the vehicles again, zogwort pls come back) I also think is far from op but definately competitive and playable for all the styles

Form experience, 8th editions orks are never in cover.

A better rule would be to mimic the tyranid's tactic: Blood Axes are assumed to be in cover unless they have advanced or charged that turn.

 Jidmah wrote:
Form experience, 8th editions orks are never in cover.

A better rule would be to mimic the tyranid's tactic: Blood Axes are assumed to be in cover unless they have advanced or charged that turn.

Blood Axes could benefit from this rule if they also received some kind of bonus like the old "Move through cover" special rule.

Back when my 90 Kommando Horde was legal I NEVER deployed in cover because the negatives to charging, plus +1 to armor doesn't really do anything for them, they still died in droves. Conversely they could get a special rule where they are always in cover unless they SHOT, not advanced, AND if they are in cover its +2 not +1. That would also go a bit towards correcting their abysmal price of 9ppm. (Keep in mind they are just regular boyz...literally the same except for special rules).

I do get your point though, Blood axe 30 Boy units will never benefit from that so that rule should probably extend to them as well.

Most terrain doesn't have an effect on charging though. It rarely matters in my games, but I guess it depends on the kind of terrain your playing location has.