Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Would a -1 penalty when shooting at a blood axe infantry model be too strong?

very much too strong, negative hit mods for entire armies is broken and needs to not happen again.

The LAST thing the ork codex needs is a klan rule that makes taking any other ones a stupid choice. I don't want to see yellow and black blood axes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I had a cool thought for a slight upgrade to ramshackle.

"When a shooting attack results in a damage roll against a vehicle with ramshackle, the vehicles controlling player may re-roll any single dice pertaining to the number of wounds caused."

My list is pretty simple.

A) Cybork bodies 5+ invulnerable save. Optional on Warbosses, Big Meks, Painboys, Nobs. The rift between ork characters and SM equivalents is greater than 2-1 simply because of the invulnerable saves, not to mention the Shield Eternal. A 5++ is not exactly game breaking. Why this was stolen is utterly beyond me. This isn't even close to parity.
B) Deff Dreds now affected by Waaagh
C) 20 pt price reductions on Trukks and BWs
D) Skorchas down to 12 points, Kombi Skorchas at 13 points
E) Big Shootas down to 5 points
F) 'Eavy Armor upgrade available for all Boss Nobs in Boyz units for 4 points
G) 'Ard Boyz unit upgrades for 3-4 PPM. 3 PPM is more mathematically justifiable as it increases survivability by 50% ergo should cost 50% more.
h) Rokkits down to 10 PPM. Can't justify that cost on a BS2 model.
I) Shooting costs need to be adjusted across the board to reflect ballistic skill and impact of -1 to hit on the army.
J) substantial price adjustment of Warbikers based on damage output and survivability
K) substantial price adjustment of Nob Bikers based on damage output and survivability
L) substantial price adjustment of Stompa
M) Slab shields providing a 5+ invulnerable save, similar to a combat shield, for 4-5 PPM. Available for Ork 'Ard Boyz (for 1-2 PPM), Nobs (4 PPM), Warboss (5-10 PPM).
N) Relic Power Klaw with the usual
O) Relic 3+ armor save
P) Rework of Green Tide and Mob Rule so that transports are actually viable

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
Would a -1 penalty when shooting at a blood axe infantry model be too strong?

Very much. A -1 penalty basically multiplies wounds by 1.3 for BS3, by 1.5 for BS4 and by 2 for BS5. Ork infantry just has way to many wounds for such a buff, 180 ork boyz would have the durability of 234 against marines and 270 against guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:
F) 'Eavy Armor upgrade available for all Boss Nobs in Boyz units for 4 points

I don't get the point of this one. You don't want wounds on your boss nob, because you have to kill off wounded first. It would never matter unless he is the last one standing.

G) 'Ard Boyz unit upgrades for 3-4 PPM. 3 PPM is more mathematically justifiable as it increases survivability by 50% ergo should cost 50% more.

I would really prefer this to cost CP like the chapter master does. If you get 'ard boyz' cost wrong by 1 point they will never see play.

M) Slab shields providing a 5+ invulnerable save, similar to a combat shield, for 4-5 PPM. Available for Ork 'Ard Boyz (for 1-2 PPM), Nobs (4 PPM), Warboss (5-10 PPM).

What the point of this if we get cybork back?

O) Relic 3+ armor save

I also don't get the point of this. The only characters I would put this on could just be clad in mega-armour.

 Jidmah wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:
F) 'Eavy Armor upgrade available for all Boss Nobs in Boyz units for 4 points

I don't get the point of this one. You don't want wounds on your boss nob, because you have to kill off wounded first. It would never matter unless he is the last one standing.

It used to be available in the 4th edition codex. It just bothers me that it was removed. Call it psychological.

 Jidmah wrote:

G) 'Ard Boyz unit upgrades for 3-4 PPM. 3 PPM is more mathematically justifiable as it increases survivability by 50% ergo should cost 50% more.

I would really prefer this to cost CP like the chapter master does. If you get 'ard boyz' cost wrong by 1 point they will never see play.

This sounds like kiss of death. Regardless, 'ard boyz saw play in 7th. I think the importance of force concentration means I'd rather play them at +4 PPM than jamming 6+ save wound models into a Trukk or shambling them up the board.

It's a preference thing. Ultimately I just want 'ard Boyz back. I think they're tactically important and serve an important list building function. Obviously 3 PPM makes the most sense.

 Jidmah wrote:

M) Slab shields providing a 5+ invulnerable save, similar to a combat shield, for 4-5 PPM. Available for Ork 'Ard Boyz (for 1-2 PPM), Nobs (4 PPM), Warboss (5-10 PPM).

What the point of this if we get cybork back?

Because I don't believe they're going to give us Cybork back, so I want this as a fluff alternative, plus I think new model kits incorporating this would look great.

It makes more sense than cybork, makes total sense for a lot more Ork units. It's also a lot more defensible as an idea because combat shields and Ogryn slab shields are already a thing. Plus they already exist in Warhammer 40K: Space Marine and Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade. They look and function great and make perfect sense. I love the aesthetic of a tough ork with a shield, and they go together with 'Ard Boyz like milk and honey.

One of my favorite units from Wh40k Space Marine was the Ard Boy with slab shield. I want to build lists around this.

O) Relic 3+ armor save

I also don't get the point of this. The only characters I would put this on could just be clad in mega-armour.

I wasn't trying to pick apart your arguments, I was just legitimately trying to understand them. I'm sorry if that came across wrong.

All other things make plenty sense, I was just wondering about those.

On 'ard boyz: they used to be 10ppm in 5th and they were objectively a waste of points. I'm not sure how math works out with 8th editions AP, but I fear that putting a price tag on them that's off by even one point will leave them benched.

On Mega-Armour:
Shouldn't mega-armour just get better/cheaper then? I somehow doubt that a 3+ armor save relic would see a lot of play.

 TedNugent wrote:

Spoiler:

My list is pretty simple.

A) Cybork bodies 5+ invulnerable save. Optional on Warbosses, Big Meks, Painboys, Nobs. The rift between ork characters and SM equivalents is greater than 2-1 simply because of the invulnerable saves, not to mention the Shield Eternal. A 5++ is not exactly game breaking. Why this was stolen is utterly beyond me. This isn't even close to parity.
B) Deff Dreds now affected by Waaagh
C) 20 pt price reductions on Trukks and BWs
D) Skorchas down to 12 points, Kombi Skorchas at 13 points
E) Big Shootas down to 5 points
F) 'Eavy Armor upgrade available for all Boss Nobs in Boyz units for 4 points
G) 'Ard Boyz unit upgrades for 3-4 PPM. 3 PPM is more mathematically justifiable as it increases survivability by 50% ergo should cost 50% more.
h) Rokkits down to 10 PPM. Can't justify that cost on a BS2 model.
I) Shooting costs need to be adjusted across the board to reflect ballistic skill and impact of -1 to hit on the army.
J) substantial price adjustment of Warbikers based on damage output and survivability
K) substantial price adjustment of Nob Bikers based on damage output and survivability
L) substantial price adjustment of Stompa
M) Slab shields providing a 5+ invulnerable save, similar to a combat shield, for 4-5 PPM. Available for Ork 'Ard Boyz (for 1-2 PPM), Nobs (4 PPM), Warboss (5-10 PPM).
N) Relic Power Klaw with the usual
O) Relic 3+ armor save
P) Rework of Green Tide and Mob Rule so that transports are actually viable

Your point reductions don't go far enough. Who the hell would willingly pay 5pts for a Big shoota? its equivalent to a Storm Bolter for dmg output and costs twice as much. S5 vs S4 isn't as big a deal as it used to be. I would pay maybe 2pts for a Big Shoota, and even then its a toss up smaller units like Kommandos and what not. A rokkit being 10 is not going to see play either outside Tankbustas. 10pts for a weapon that hits 1 time in 3 turns statistically? and when it eventually does hit you still only have a 2/3rd chance to wound a T5-7 unit and they will most likely still get an armor save against it. So really it should be 5-6pts at most and then we readjust the cost for units like Tankbustas to make it so they aren't spammed.

 Jidmah wrote:


On 'ard boyz: they used to be 10ppm in 5th and they were objectively a waste of points. I'm not sure how math works out with 8th editions AP, but I fear that putting a price tag on them that's off by even one point will leave them benched.

It's a fair point, and I'm going to stand by 3 points because it's better to have it on the offchance than not to have the option. Personally I find the idea of footslogging over 120 boys in small games unappealing.

But now that the 6+ is more widely available, even 3 points doesn't really cut the mustard. I'm just trying to be conservative and realistic because the most realistic scenario is that is gets the nix again and there is a bunch of copypasta with minor price changes.

 Jidmah wrote:

On Mega-Armour:
Shouldn't mega-armour just get better/cheaper then? I somehow doubt that a 3+ armor save relic would see a lot of play.

It's still going to be slow. Terminators are slow too. I'm looking for something I could use in a footslogging list. 4+ with no invulnerable save is terribad. It's insulting in comparison to SM hQs.

Even still, it's just the principle. To be honest, I was thinking of a 3+ with an integrated invulnerable save or some other bonus similar to the armor indomitus.

Again, I'm mostly suggesting this just because I think it's absurd that we can't even get a basic 3+ armor save with no invulnerable save.
Like, please papa may I have a loaf of bread. I'm not saying it's good, but it's better than a kick in the nose.

SemperMortis wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

Spoiler:

My list is pretty simple.

A) Cybork bodies 5+ invulnerable save. Optional on Warbosses, Big Meks, Painboys, Nobs. The rift between ork characters and SM equivalents is greater than 2-1 simply because of the invulnerable saves, not to mention the Shield Eternal. A 5++ is not exactly game breaking. Why this was stolen is utterly beyond me. This isn't even close to parity.
B) Deff Dreds now affected by Waaagh
C) 20 pt price reductions on Trukks and BWs
D) Skorchas down to 12 points, Kombi Skorchas at 13 points
E) Big Shootas down to 5 points
F) 'Eavy Armor upgrade available for all Boss Nobs in Boyz units for 4 points
G) 'Ard Boyz unit upgrades for 3-4 PPM. 3 PPM is more mathematically justifiable as it increases survivability by 50% ergo should cost 50% more.
h) Rokkits down to 10 PPM. Can't justify that cost on a BS2 model.
I) Shooting costs need to be adjusted across the board to reflect ballistic skill and impact of -1 to hit on the army.
J) substantial price adjustment of Warbikers based on damage output and survivability
K) substantial price adjustment of Nob Bikers based on damage output and survivability
L) substantial price adjustment of Stompa
M) Slab shields providing a 5+ invulnerable save, similar to a combat shield, for 4-5 PPM. Available for Ork 'Ard Boyz (for 1-2 PPM), Nobs (4 PPM), Warboss (5-10 PPM).
N) Relic Power Klaw with the usual
O) Relic 3+ armor save
P) Rework of Green Tide and Mob Rule so that transports are actually viable

Your point reductions don't go far enough. Who the hell would willingly pay 5pts for a Big shoota? its equivalent to a Storm Bolter for dmg output and costs twice as much. S5 vs S4 isn't as big a deal as it used to be. I would pay maybe 2pts for a Big Shoota, and even then its a toss up smaller units like Kommandos and what not. A rokkit being 10 is not going to see play either outside Tankbustas. 10pts for a weapon that hits 1 time in 3 turns statistically? and when it eventually does hit you still only have a 2/3rd chance to wound a T5-7 unit and they will most likely still get an armor save against it. So really it should be 5-6pts at most and then we readjust the cost for units like Tankbustas to make it so they aren't spammed.

Right, that was the whole point. It was intentionally understated to be ironic to draw attention to out of parity the index is and how I would actually be satisfied with even mild improvements over the present state.

I don't even really care, for example, if the average Joe doesn't use 'Ard Boyz or if Cybork Bodies is still trash in comparison with a dirt-cheap 3++ Storm Shield that halves all incoming damage or if Power Klaws are trash compared to Thunder hammers with 3 static damage. Or even Waagh in comparison to a reroll of 1 bubble to both melee and ranged attacks.

I would just be happy if they made that very minor step towards making it slightly less outrageous.

Terminators are slow but have deepstrike and can teleport back to the home beacon or whatever the name of that rule, also they are 25pts with a built in 5++, so a 20 point meganob with the option of cybork body for 5pts seems reasonable to me
I think that with a general point adjustment, always hit on 6s, some extra shots and a couple tweaks orks would be awesome, but whatever... lets see if GW finally stops giving us utter crap, we cant do nothing but wait sadly

SemperMortis wrote:

A rokkit being 10 is not going to see play either outside Tankbustas

I think maybe they need to implement a Cart-Target'a that grants Tankbustas the Tank-Hunters ability, and then take points away from the rokkit and into the Targeter, so that it can be costed better for the trukk and boyz, or just put the points straight into the tankbustas.

I really don't like the way they've done wargear in this edition, with some units taking the cost on the wargear and others the unit (higher cost with free wargear).

 CaffeineIsGood wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

A rokkit being 10 is not going to see play either outside Tankbustas

I think maybe they need to implement a Cart-Target'a that grants Tankbustas the Tank-Hunters ability, and then take points away from the rokkit and into the Targeter, so that it can be costed better for the trukk and boyz, or just put the points straight into the tankbustas.

I really don't like the way they've done wargear in this edition, with some units taking the cost on the wargear and others the unit (higher cost with free wargear).

I couldn't agree more. At first I thought it was nice with my Kommando Horde, lots of free Burnas. But then I did the math on a Burna....and in CC its a small fraction better then a regular boy with a choppa. (Choppa gets 3 attacks, 2 hits and 1 wound vs T4 so .333 wounds against a SM, A Burna gets 2 attacks, 1.33 hits, .66 wounds and vs a 3+ save model thats .44)

But for Rokkitz its just stupid, the ironic part for me is that they didn't buff Big Shootas in any way, shape, or form. But somehow the cost for it went up by 20%? And remember, Rokkitz and Big Shootas used to both be a 5pt upgrade. I was fine wasting 5pts on a Rokkit in 7th, especially back when it instant killed T4 models with a 3+ save, and because it was S8 it caused instant death. now? I have yet to WILLINGLY take a Rokkit on anything beyond Tankbustas, and I don't even field them often because they are too expensive and require a massively over priced trukk to function at all.

Granted, because Trukkz and Wagonz suck so bad in this edition I haven't fielded that many big shootas either. Though I did give it a shot on Deff koptas, but again the price was so restrictive and the unit so crappy that I stopped using those entirely to.

I don't know what a fair price for Rokkitz in 8th should be, but I think 5pts would be a good starting point, and then just add on some cost to Bustas so they don't become cheesy.

How does everyone feel about lootas if their special rule changed from "rolla d3 fo the number of shots for all models in this unit" to "Roll a d3 and add that number to the number of shots each model in this unit fires"

This way each modelgets at least 2 shots, with a swing potential of six

How many shots do they get base?

d3, but one roll for the entire squad rather than d3 each

 davou wrote:
d3, but one roll for the entire squad rather than d3 each

Isn't that how it already works?

And that's not what you posted initially, at all.

Oh I thought you were asking what their shots were now base.


My idea is leave them at d3, but individual rolls, but before shooting roll a d3 and add that many shots to each dice you roll.

 davou wrote:
Oh I thought you were asking what their shots were now base.


My idea is leave them at d3, but individual rolls, but before shooting roll a d3 and add that many shots to each dice you roll.

So you roll 1d3 for the whole group, then roll 1d3 for each individual Loota?

That's an awful idea. Not the idea of giving them 2d3 shots-that's fine, with appropriate points cost, whatever that is. But I don't want to roll 16 dice BEFORE SHOOTING when I select Lootas to fire.

You already would have to roll 15 for that group if they werent the only unit in the game with that weird rule, whats one more dice?

 davou wrote:
You already would have to roll 15 for that group if they werent the only unit in the game with that weird rule, whats one more dice?

That's not how it works.

"When a unit fires its Deffguns, roll once for the number of attacks and use this for all Deffguns fired by the unit in this phase."

So you're proposing changing it from 1d3 for a unit of 15 Lootas to 1d3+15d3.

And, here's the thing-even if it DID work that way, why would you want to keep that? Make it 2d3 shots. Boom, bam, done.

I know that's how it works now, deffguns have always had that type of variable shot. IN the past it was a deffgun specific thing through. Now lots of guns have random numbers of shots. They seem to have been designed with a nod towards nostalgia.

The advantage of buckets of dice vs one roll for the unit is it mitigates swings; which are not fun for at least one side of the table at a time.

 davou wrote:
I know that's how it works now, deffguns have always had that type of variable shot. IN the past it was a deffgun specific thing through. Now lots of guns have random numbers of shots. They seem to have been designed with a nod towards nostalgia.

The advantage of buckets of dice vs one roll for the unit is it mitigates swings; which are not fun for at least one side of the table at a time.

Right, except you're still swingy with the one d3. And if you roll less dice, you can command point it to help get those extra shots.

I would rather Lootas got 2 + D3 shots. On the absolute high end this would give 15 lootas, 75 shots, 25 hits on average and against a T7 vehicle that is 12-13 wounds. On the low end its only 45 shots with 15 hits and 7-8 wounds. As it stands, a 15 boy loota squad costs 255pts, so being able to one shot a rhino or even a predator if its not in cover makes sense, especially when they start melting as soon as you shoot anything at them.

SemperMortis wrote:
I would rather Lootas got 2 + D3 shots. On the absolute high end this would give 15 lootas, 75 shots, 25 hits on average and against a T7 vehicle that is 12-13 wounds. On the low end its only 45 shots with 15 hits and 7-8 wounds. As it stands, a 15 boy loota squad costs 255pts, so being able to one shot a rhino or even a predator if its not in cover makes sense, especially when they start melting as soon as you shoot anything at them.

This would be fine...but why shouldn't we just hope for a straight heavy 4? The argument from GW that "orks must be randumb" is getting pretty old.

 JimOnMars wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I would rather Lootas got 2 + D3 shots. On the absolute high end this would give 15 lootas, 75 shots, 25 hits on average and against a T7 vehicle that is 12-13 wounds. On the low end its only 45 shots with 15 hits and 7-8 wounds. As it stands, a 15 boy loota squad costs 255pts, so being able to one shot a rhino or even a predator if its not in cover makes sense, especially when they start melting as soon as you shoot anything at them.

This would be fine...but why shouldn't we just hope for a straight heavy 4? The argument from GW that "orks must be randumb" is getting pretty old.

Very good point, I would be fine with Heavy 4, give them 4+ armor and I won't even ask for their prices to be reduced

Same here. Heavy 4 lootas with 4+ saves sound great to me. I wouldn't mind 2d3 either though.

 Jidmah wrote:
Same here. Heavy 4 lootas with 4+ saves sound great to me. I wouldn't mind 2d3 either though.

I would be fine with Heavy 4 since its the average and realistically its removes 2 dice rolls and multiplication that a lot of people seem to have problems with (intentionally or not). I distinctly remember someone I played against a few months ago who was firing a bunch of Lootas at me, apparently 12 x 2 is 36

I don't think it's a problem with random shots though. I've had people claim 24 shots for a single hurricane bolter

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think it's a problem with random shots though. I've had people claim 24 shots for a single hurricane bolter

LMAO very true. The ironic part is that a lot of the time they aren't even trying to cheat, they just have no idea what the hell they are talking about. The loota guy i think might have known better, he tended to do that a lot from what I saw.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think it's a problem with random shots though. I've had people claim 24 shots for a single hurricane bolter

It seems silly, to me, to make a second order of randomness for no real purpose. Aren't dice random enough? Why Do I need to roll a random number of random number generators? The only thing is does, IMHO, is waste time. If I knew it was 4 per loota, I could just roll them and be done with it.

making it D3 per model is basically the same thing as making it 2 shots on average. You eliminate a lot of the randomness and narrow it down significantly. I mean you could still get those stupid rare results of all 1s and 2s or 5s and 6s but its unlikely.

So personally I would prefer to have just 4 shots as standard and a 4+ save, keep the price the same and watch as my glass cannons start earning their places back in my list instead of my KMKs.