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 Sqorgar wrote:
I am not originally from the wargaming scene. I came from video games. And I've seen these unfounded declarations of sexism and racism destroy the hobby I love and the community I used to belong to. I'm a social justice refugee. I came here to get away from this white knighting and moral oppression.

I've seen friends labeled as sexists, racists, misogynists, white supremacists, and even nazis just for liking a particular video game and I've seen people threaten them and promise to punch them, even stalk them at conventions. This kind of moral grandstanding may seem like it is being done for the greater good (for the greater good), but all it is doing is giving people excuses to treat one another like crap - and given social media the excuse to silence, belittle, harass, and even spy on people with opinions they find disagreeable. These people are so full of themselves that they can ruin a stranger's life over nothing and still fail to have a "are we the baddies?" moment.

This movement has destroyed video games, comic books, science fiction novels, social media, atheism, and a lot of other things that I used to enjoy (seriously, look it up if you don't believe me), and yeah, maybe when I see the seeds of stupidity start to grow in wargaming, I'm a little wary. If people want to try to shame me for liking battlefield bikinis, then I see no problem with shaming them for the ignorance of their supposed good intentions.

I can't comment on the treatment of your friends, but the issue you seem to have missed is this:

For decades (centuries, even), our society has placed women below men; has objectified them; has belittled them. What you facetiously call "Tumblr feminism" is part of the movement that is trying to gain equal footing to men - they're advocating for equality and respect. By mocking them, you are in fact a misogynist, because you're laughing at their right to fair treatment.

So why does this matter in terms of a model in a bikini? It wouldn't, except that this is the stereotypical portrayal of women in fantasy, and it stems from the objectification of women. The focus by the modellers on their sexual characteristics reflects the view of the artist (and company they represent) that this is the woman's place, and falls in line with the history of sexualization and belittling.

And GW is guilty of this in past: take a look at the "Prisoners" (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Dark-Eldar-Prisoners) models and you'll see what I'm talking about - they actually have a line of sex slaves to be used as objective markers.

Battlefield bikinis will be ok when it's tongue-in-cheek and not the norm - until then, show some respect for the other 51% of the population and listen to what they have to say rather than mock and belittle.

Edit: Then you went ahead and made some dumbfounded comment about the wage gap being more than gender. I'm done with you, and I'm going to stop myself here before I get personal.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'll be honest, I started reading it because "BDSM lesbians" (And to be honest I found it randomly browsing Deviantart), I ended loving the characters as human beings

I am 100% unsurprised by this comment and I attribute it to Stjepan being a very very good storyteller in addition to being a very good artist.

I loved his "guess star" part in one of the new Harley Quinn comics, truly a blessed man. But I'll stop here talking about him, is pretty offtopic!

Back on topic. Sqorgar, are you saying that all the people you have said their arguments are BS aren't customers of GW? That they dont' spent money?
And to be honest personally I find the "Marvel has died because they did make Thor a female and Idontremember what character homosexual/bisexual!" a total confirmation bias problem. The printed Comic industry has been dying since the 80's!!! And for many, many reasons that have 0 relation with those moves, besides the fact that many of those attempts to make their comic range more diverse where just plain out bad from a narrative perspective.

But, fear not Sqorgar! If you go back to the first post you'll read that GW has said that they want to diversee their customer range without alienating their actual customer base! So you are safe from all those intrusions in your hobby!

they want to bring more women into the hobby, but don't want to alienate the existing playerbase while doing so, it is something they're aware of (but no details as yet)

 Sqorgar wrote:
So what I think on this matters, because if they go off chasing people who aren't their customer by pissing off those who are, well, it's happened before and it has never really gone well. Ask any Marvel fan. Heck, ask Marvel themselves.

Yeah, you and your buddies leaving the “video game scene” really killed that industry.
Wrap it up boys and girls, he really does matter!

 Sqorgar wrote:
For instance, if you want to know why the gender gap exists[…]

Great! A completely unrelated antifeminist talking point! Exactly what we needed to drive the thread forward! I really can't guess why you where called a misogynist. No what I'm sure it's ONLY because you like the wrong video game .

 ekwatts wrote:
Came back to the thread to find that somebody seemed to think that the Ghostbusters reboot was somehow about translating feminist theory into film. Then also attributed that complete fantasy into being the reason the movie objectively failed to connect with the audience.

I didn't say it translated feminist theory (that would be giving the film makers more credit than they deserve), just that they advertised it as being a vehicle for powerful women and that was, ultimately, the only thing it had going for it. It objectively failed because it was a boring movie that was poorly edited, a bad continuation of the Ghostbusters franchise, and it generated a lot of bad blood with regard to how the movie was marketed and discussed leading up to its release. I'm not a huge Ghostbusters fan and I don't consider the new film to be sacrilegious or anything, but I did notice how the film backfired in a spectacular way.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

It's not about you, and what you think. But thanks for clogging this entire thread with one overweight white man's thoughts. We didn't have quite enough of those out there on the internet.

But it is about me. I'm a paying customer of Games Workshop. My wife is as well. And one day, god willing, my two daughters. So what I think on this matters, because if they go off chasing people who aren't their customer by pissing off those who are, well, it's happened before and it has never really gone well. Ask any Marvel fan. Heck, ask Marvel themselves.

As for my thoughts, I'm not an overweight white man. Or rather, I'm not just an overweight white man. Those are, by far, the most least noteworthy things about me, and it no more accurately describes me as a person than red describes a tomato. And that's exactly my point. If we reduce people down to these stereotypes, we lose the big picture. We start focusing on trees and we miss the forest.

For instance, if you want to know why the gender gap exists, you will never answer that question if the only variable you look at is one's gender. You can come up with theories, but like I already explained, you wouldn't be able to build predictions off it. You wouldn't be able to plan for and build a better tomorrow. So instead of explaining why things are the way they are, let's look for answers to how things will be tomorrow if we go down this particular path - and like I mentioned, we've seen this happen repeatedly. We know what happens when we go down this road and it DESTROYS industries.

When racism isn't a problem we can stop caring about representation and top talking about it.
When sexism isn't a problem we can stop caring about representation and stop talking about it.
Until then... you're in about the most represented, priveliged, non-oppressed group there is. It. Is. Not. About. You.

strepp wrote:

And GW is guilty of this in past: take a look at the "Prisoners" (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Dark-Eldar-Prisoners) models and you'll see what I'm talking about - they actually have a line of sex slaves to be used as objective markers.

While I agree with the real world point you are trying to make, the point of the Dark Eldar Slave Girls is to show that the Dark Eldar are ruthless badies (as well as a reference to Leia from Return of the Jedi).

So I am not sure if GW should be guilty of something in this situation, especially if you consider Dark Eldar Wyches.

Currently I am watching the new Anne of Green Gables, and I am loving how feminist it is. I think GW could take something from this series as sometimes it is pretty grim dark.

 StygianBeach wrote:
While I agree with the real world point you are trying to make, the point of the Dark Eldar Slave Girls is to show that the Dark Eldar are ruthless badies (as well as a reference to Leia from Return of the Jedi).

No. Those models don't evoke “ruthless baddies”. Try it: show them to anyone who doesn't know 40k (or even anyone who knows it) and ask them what words and concepts these models evokes to them. Go on until they say “ruthless”. I predict you will tire long before it happens.

strepp wrote:
As Kawauso eloquently put it above, there is absolutely room for characters like Lilith (although according to my significant other, just not where anyone else can see ). No one is calling for a knee-jerk removal of models like this from the setting, but instead to supplement the other side of it.

Well, you did use the terms "tone down the sexualization". The meaning of that sentence seems pretty clear to me.

I actually went through the current GW kits to see how much toning down would be needed. Now mind you, standards differ, but as far as I'm concerned, only Lilith, Witch Elves and maybe Sister Repentia qualify as having any serious amount of titillation in their design.

On the other side, we have properly decent WE and HE kits, all the Eldar females, Wyches, the occasional character in 40k, Sisters of Silence and Those Other Sisters That Totally Aren't Squatted. Oh, and a Sigmarinette. None of which seem sexualized in any great manner, unless I missed the memo on corsets being a hugely problematic visual element.

I get people want more female models, and I personally can't wait for more Sigmarinettes to come out, but unless GW suddenly starts cranking out Frazetta girls, the balance across the current range really ain't that bad.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Kawauso wrote:

When people can look to a game they play and see examples of people like themselves in it, it's a very welcoming and encouraging feeling. It's nice to be acknowledged and affirmed, and it's the sort of thing that's difficult to understand for anyone who is used to seeing themselves represented nearly 100% of the time in the media they consume.

I'm going to call bs on this. I don't think anybody is looking at Warhammer 40k and thinking, wow, I really identify with these ten foot tall space soldiers with extra internal organs in peak physical condition fighting heresy and xenophobic threats under an oppressive and dogmatic galactic hegemony because I too am a white man.

People are made up of more than just their skin color and dangly bits between their legs. Like, if that's how you interpret and identify with the world at large, you've got serious issues of empathy and understanding for your fellow man, and you might as well be playing pretend at being human.

This last part makes you an idiot, Sqorgar. Don't deny someone else's experience. Someone literally just told you representation is important to them (and someone upthread, too) then you "call bs" on it. I'm so pleased you are here to let everyone know how they're allowed to feel. That you don't understand the point being made and the topic at hand proves you should refrain from commenting on it.

I didn't deny their experience. I have no doubt that some people are extrinsically motivated and need constant reaffirmation to bolster their self esteem. I'm calling bs on the idea that anybody sees themselves represented 100% of the time and that they can't understand being an outsider.

I'm an overweight, balding 40 year old programmer with two children. Do you think I identify with any part of being a space marine? Like even a little. No, of course not. What about Wonder Woman? Did I enjoy that movie because the idea of being a female superhero deeply resonated with me? Nope. Because identification with the material is not fundamental to enjoying it. I hate how people act like representation means anything. It doesn't. What it does is signal to specific blocs of people that the game is designed for them - which is fine, but it isn't a fething moral imperative. And I'd argue that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference when it comes down to it. Ghostbusters 2016 signals woman power loud and clear, but pretty much everyone (male and female) avoided that movie like the plague because those signals were literally all it had going for it.

Look at the male fandom surrounding My Little Pony. MLP does nothing to indicate that 20 year old men would or should enjoy it, and yet they do. Maybe a little too much. Maybe sometimes in wrong and improper ways. But it doesn't have to go erecting signposts saying "Look at me, I'm just like you" to get attention.

You're. Missing. The. Point.

Wilfully.

It's not about you, and what you think. But thanks for clogging this entire thread with one overweight white man's thoughts. We didn't have quite enough of those out there on the internet.

I'd love to discuss calmly and help educate you on some of my views, but you ran in shouting with your blinkers on, so I'm not gonna waste energy trying.

This is absolutely disgusting rhetoric. Here's a reality check, as soon as you start judging a persons words based on their immutable characteristics, your the the problem. It tells everyone in here that your a racist/sexist.

Noone Ever wrote:Oh look, a civilized and informed discussion on gender representation on Dakka

Seriously, there's a bunch of people that should be fething ashamed of themselves, not least of which for dragging the thread so far off topic, let alone the rule 1 violations left right and centre.

Only one thing to do now..

This thread has gone too far off course to possibly correct.

I'm going to lock it, and start a new one.